Captivators and Submersive comparison in my room - Page 7 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #181 of 263 Old 06-27-2012, 07:03 AM
Senior Member
 
pennynike1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 234
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Interesting. I found an article on the internet that discourages from utilizing hard wood floors. Here is the link:
http://www.hometheater.com/content/home-theater-builder-part-2-selecting-your-room

And, here is the quote that I found instructive:
Quote:
The biggest surface issue in our demonstration room is the hardwood floor. Wood should generally be avoided anywhere in a listening room if possible, but it is easiest to deal with as a floor. A thick area rug at the first reflection points is the bare minimum that needs to happen here, and frankly, wall-to-wall carpeting would be a welcome addition. I know most people aren't going to cover up expensive wood flooring with carpet, but unfortunately, your speakers don't care how much you paid for your floor. Wood reflects sound with the best of them, and any wood that isn't covered is going to have an effect.
pennynike1 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #182 of 263 Old 06-27-2012, 07:37 AM
AVS Special Member
 
desertdome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Elkhorn, NE
Posts: 1,680
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 186
The discussion of concrete vs wood floors is interesting. At both the Omaha and KC GTG's the flooring was concrete. Even with multiple subs, The Flight of the Phoenix crash scene never felt the same as it did in my room with its wood floors. I liked it in my room the best. With my infinite baffle system, the tactile feel is really neat and easily surpasses the quality of feel that I had with the dual Buttkickers I had mounted to my floor joists. If I ever make a basement theater, I think I would have the floor 3 ft deeper than the final room height and use the space for an infinite baffle system under a wooden floor. I don't think I've seen anyone do this yet.

As an aside, last night I listened to the Master & Commander battle scene clip from the DVD (DTS track) and then followed by the Blu-ray (DTS-MA). The Blu-ray clip blew away the DVD clip in dynamics, impact, and tactile feel. My kids (11 & 7) watched with me and they also agreed that the Blu-ray was much better. The canons sounded much more real and you felt like you were there on the ship. The dialogue between the two clips sounded like it was at the same level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

You guys got any good barbeque out there?
I've lived in Kansas, Nebraska, and California. The definition of barbecue varies (as does spelling smile.gif), but the best barbecue beef I've had was in California.
Quote:
California is a beautiful state - especially the northern part by Yosemite, and Big Trees national forrest!
Yosemite is in the middle of the state. It is another 450 miles of driving to get to Oregon!
desertdome is online now  
post #183 of 263 Old 06-27-2012, 07:49 AM
AVS Special Member
 
RMK!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 95608
Posts: 5,659
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked: 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennynike1 View Post

I may just do that Jonathan. Then I can also say that I have been to California, where I have always wanted to go.
I am thinking either dual Orbit Shifters or dual Terraform XL's, but I haven't closed the door to the Captivators or Submersives just yet. I will continue to listen and research smile.gif
Once I get it all set up, you will have to come over and hear the Nirvana that I hope to create. Hopefully, I won't need acoustical treatments, or at least many of them, in order to get things where I would like them to be. I know that the $ can start adding up if you purchase those.

I was serious about the offer and hope you can get out here at some point. smile.gif

I'm afraid some acoustic treatments (especially for the bass regions) are going to be necessary. Some people like more reflective rooms and it can tend to make the room seem more "alive" especially for live music recordings. As always, it comes down to individual taste ... and you can always add treatments incrementally (like seasoning smile.gif) especially in a dedicated room. That was my approach and I was able to hear the difference as I added more treatments. My room is now fairly dead from a reflective standpoint (no slap echo).

When Keith Yates visited for one of my HT meets, he held a bit of a clinic on sound for a few of us who remained at the end of the day. He was talking to us and moving around the room noting the differences in his voice as he moved to different points in the room. He had some non-traditional takes on treatments and I went with most of his suggestions.
RMK! is online now  
post #184 of 263 Old 06-27-2012, 08:33 AM
Senior Member
 
pennynike1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 234
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Cool! I will have to see if that can be arranged later in the year. Hearing 4 Submersives in a room would be a thing to behold. One of the fantasies I have plaid around with is having 8 Captivators or 8 Submersives in a 7.8 setup cool.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I was serious about the offer and hope you can get out here at some point. smile.gif
pennynike1 is offline  
post #185 of 263 Old 06-27-2012, 09:14 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jedimastergrant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 1,819
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

The discussion of concrete vs wood floors is interesting. At both the Omaha and KC GTG's the flooring was concrete. Even with multiple subs, The Flight of the Phoenix crash scene never felt the same as it did in my room with its wood floors. I liked it in my room the best. With my infinite baffle system, the tactile feel is really neat and easily surpasses the quality of feel that I had with the dual Buttkickers I had mounted to my floor joists. If I ever make a basement theater, I think I would have the floor 3 ft deeper than the final room height and use the space for an infinite baffle system under a wooden floor. I don't think I've seen anyone do this yet.
As an aside, last night I listened to the Master & Commander battle scene clip from the DVD (DTS track) and then followed by the Blu-ray (DTS-MA). The Blu-ray clip blew away the DVD clip in dynamics, impact, and tactile feel. My kids (11 & 7) watched with me and they also agreed that the Blu-ray was much better. The canons sounded much more real and you felt like you were there on the ship. The dialogue between the two clips sounded like it was at the same level.
I've lived in Kansas, Nebraska, and California. The definition of barbecue varies (as does spelling smile.gif), but the best barbecue beef I've had was in California.
Yosemite is in the middle of the state. It is another 450 miles of driving to get to Oregon!

That IB idea is insane and I kinda like it. Your entire floor would be shaking. That would be something to experience.

That said I would be concerned about the floor making noise the same way that Archaea describes his walls making noise.

So I would rather go with concrete floors and just put powerful enough subs in there to shake the seats till your hearts content.
jedimastergrant is offline  
post #186 of 263 Old 06-27-2012, 09:19 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jedimastergrant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 1,819
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennynike1 View Post

Cool! I will have to see if that can be arranged later in the year. Hearing 4 Submersives in a room would be a thing to behold. One of the fantasies I have plaid around with is having 8 Captivators or 8 Submersives in a 7.8 setup cool.gif

Have you nailed down a budget yet? You are going to need ridiculous amounts of output to satisfy your tastes. I would guess that the best currently available commercial offering is the Orbit Shifter for you.

However, if your budget does not allow dual OS's you should really look into DIY. Much more bang for your buck if you want to do some research and you have the woodworking skills and tools. Of course it is quite a bit of time to invest.

Have you thought about IB? Deserdome has heard a lot of subs and loves his. Very cheap solution for lots of output. No way to know if you will be able to put an IB in your next home though.
jedimastergrant is offline  
post #187 of 263 Old 06-27-2012, 09:30 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,826
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 104 Post(s)
Liked: 380
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedimastergrant View Post

That IB idea is insane and I kinda like it. Your entire floor would be shaking. That would be something to experience.
That said I would be concerned about the floor making noise the same way that Archaea describes his walls making noise.
So I would rather go with concrete floors and just put powerful enough subs in there to shake the seats till your hearts content.

What I like about suspended wood floors though is you don't have to have the volume as loud to get the tactile feel, which saves your ears in the long run.

That reminds me guys. You know how you always hear that movies aren't hard on your ears because the peaks are very short and there is not enough time to do damage? I don't buy that for a second. I was watching the meter during some of our scenes the other day. For example the Battle LA scenes... the spl levels stayed well over 105 THE ENTIRE TIME! During what seemed like quiet moments when no explosions/gunshots were going off etc. I checked and the db level was 98!! It seemed so quiet, but that was just compared to the onslaught that we were experiencing. Everything I have read says to limit your exposure to sounds above 85.
carp is online now  
post #188 of 263 Old 06-27-2012, 09:32 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,826
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 104 Post(s)
Liked: 380
That said... I'm still wanting to upgrade my subs. redface.gifsmile.gif
carp is online now  
post #189 of 263 Old 06-27-2012, 09:46 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,170
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked: 394
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

What I like about suspended wood floors though is you don't have to have the volume as loud to get the tactile feel, which saves your ears in the long run.
That reminds me guys. You know how you always hear that movies aren't hard on your ears because the peaks are very short and there is not enough time to do damage? I don't buy that for a second. I was watching the meter during some of our scenes the other day. For example the Battle LA scenes... the spl levels stayed well over 105 THE ENTIRE TIME! During what seemed like quiet moments when no explosions/gunshots were going off etc. I checked and the db level was 98!! It seemed so quiet, but that was just compared to the onslaught that we were experiencing. Everything I have read says to limit your exposure to sounds above 85.

Carp,
You are forgetting some very important things here. You are not watching movies, you are watching demos of the loudest scenes one after another, not a typical movie that has a 7 minute loud scene. Also, you are watching said scenes at louder than reference which is not normal.

You want to upgrade your subs? To what? I say once you find the sound you like you just need to add more and for sealed subs this mean you can go full bandwidth at much louder levels, not more headroom that 2 subs can handle already!
MKtheater is offline  
post #190 of 263 Old 06-27-2012, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,826
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 104 Post(s)
Liked: 380
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Carp,
You are forgetting some very important things here. You are not watching movies, you are watching demos of the loudest scenes one after another, not a typical movie that has a 7 minute loud scene. Also, you are watching said scenes at louder than reference which is not normal.
You want to upgrade your subs? To what? I say once you find the sound you like you just need to add more and for sealed subs this mean you can go full bandwidth at much louder levels, not more headroom that 2 subs can handle already!

Ha, well when I say upgrade it's really all just lateral moves at this point.

Here is my thinking. I recently tried putting both of my Submersives in the same corner and was very impressed with it. The bass on demanding scenes was noticeably more effortless and you could tell there was more headroom. On the meter I was getting 4.5 db's more, so not quite the 6 you are supposed to get.

Also, music still sounded very good in this configuration when the subs weren't pushed very hard meaning the fact that the freq response wasn't as smooth didn't bother me.

So... I'm thinking get a single Cap 2 sealed for now which will give me the output of 2 corner loaded Sumbersives and I know the sound quality is right there (or real close) with the Submersive since I've heard the cap sealed in the same room as a submersive. So, I'll get the best of both worlds, great sound quality and more headroom. Eventually I will want another sealed 2 for the other corner, but it won't have to be right away.
carp is online now  
post #191 of 263 Old 06-27-2012, 10:31 AM
Member
 
MrSmithers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Carp,
You are forgetting some very important things here. You are not watching movies, you are watching demos of the loudest scenes one after another, not a typical movie that has a 7 minute loud scene. Also, you are watching said scenes at louder than reference which is not normal.
You want to upgrade your subs? To what? I say once you find the sound you like you just need to add more and for sealed subs this mean you can go full bandwidth at much louder levels, not more headroom that 2 subs can handle already!

While I agree with your sentiment that we were just rapid-firing demo scenes and that's not terribly representative of actual movie watching, there are movies (Underworld: Awakening and Battle: LA to name two) that have an awful lot of those demo, bass-heavy or very dynamic scenes relative to the total runtime of the movie. I'd be interested to see Speclab or similar data showing, at reference level, statistics on the output levels, time spent above XXdB and such. I bet it's a reasonably high percentage/time above a fairly high SPL.
MrSmithers is online now  
post #192 of 263 Old 06-27-2012, 11:16 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,170
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked: 394
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSmithers View Post

While I agree with your sentiment that we were just rapid-firing demo scenes and that's not terribly representative of actual movie watching, there are movies (Underworld: Awakening and Battle: LA to name two) that have an awful lot of those demo, bass-heavy or very dynamic scenes relative to the total runtime of the movie. I'd be interested to see Speclab or similar data showing, at reference level, statistics on the output levels, time spent above XXdB and such. I bet it's a reasonably high percentage/time above a fairly high SPL.

I won't get side tracked with this hearing discussion as I have discussed it before on a few occasions.

Carp,
Yeah, I forgot about the sealed Cap. One S2 should be great but 2 would be much better(under 15hz of course). I am not sure how total displacement is figured out but dual submersives have 4 15's with 19mm X-max each? The cap S2 has two 18's with 30mm X-max each. I am sure this is easy to figure out. The question is which driver is better at the low stuff and if it matters to you? There is always DIY and 4 FTW21's which would be cheaper than the two S2's. Even with the boxes built professionally and clone amp with DCX. Ahhhh, and it goes on! The S2's are very cool and very small for dual 18's! I am very pleased with my setup and trust me, the driver makes a difference even if the displacement is the same when it comes to the low end.
MKtheater is offline  
post #193 of 263 Old 06-27-2012, 11:33 AM
AVS Special Member
 
RMK!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 95608
Posts: 5,659
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked: 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

What I like about suspended wood floors though is you don't have to have the volume as loud to get the tactile feel, which saves your ears in the long run.

That is a very good point. I have cut back on my LFE levels in the last week and I'm now running my subs 2-3db cold. We watched Red Cliff 1 (BTW great movie) last night and several concert Blurays the night before at these new lower levels (-10 MV from ref) and I'm liking it quite a bit. Everything is a bit less crazy LFE wise and yet still very satisfying. I know that is heresy around here ... smile.gif
RMK! is online now  
post #194 of 263 Old 06-27-2012, 11:35 AM
AVS Special Member
 
countryWV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Huntington West Virginia
Posts: 1,313
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 134
Carp
I have a subm hp and was ready to get another.
Then Jeff posted those S2 pictures and immediate confusion set in.
Every time I look at those pictures of 2 18" drivers and a 4000 Watt amp
I can feel my brain clouding up, get nervously excited, and loose all common sense.
Common sense says another subm hp is the obvious choice but the
"HOT GIRL WITH THE REALLY BIG SUBWOOFERS" is all I can think about.
Mark announced that the subm xl with mate really well with the subm hp.
If you figure it out let me know what you think.
Thanks
WVchris
countryWV is online now  
post #195 of 263 Old 06-27-2012, 01:45 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,826
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 104 Post(s)
Liked: 380
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSmithers View Post

While I agree with your sentiment that we were just rapid-firing demo scenes and that's not terribly representative of actual movie watching, there are movies (Underworld: Awakening and Battle: LA to name two) that have an awful lot of those demo, bass-heavy or very dynamic scenes relative to the total runtime of the movie. I'd be interested to see Speclab or similar data showing, at reference level, statistics on the output levels, time spent above XXdB and such. I bet it's a reasonably high percentage/time above a fairly high SPL.

I agree that these kind of movies will do some damage if what I read about hearing damage and dangerous levels is correct. But i rationalize it by thinking we have to live a little... also there is no way I would have listened to all of Battle LA at those volumes...

Not wanting to argue MK and if it is an argument, it's one that I hope you are 100% right!! smile.gif
carp is online now  
post #196 of 263 Old 06-27-2012, 01:53 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,826
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 104 Post(s)
Liked: 380
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I won't get side tracked with this hearing discussion as I have discussed it before on a few occasions.
Carp,
Yeah, I forgot about the sealed Cap. One S2 should be great but 2 would be much better(under 15hz of course). I am not sure how total displacement is figured out but dual submersives have 4 15's with 19mm X-max each? The cap S2 has two 18's with 30mm X-max each. I am sure this is easy to figure out. The question is which driver is better at the low stuff and if it matters to you? There is always DIY and 4 FTW21's which would be cheaper than the two S2's. Even with the boxes built professionally and clone amp with DCX. Ahhhh, and it goes on! The S2's are very cool and very small for dual 18's! I am very pleased with my setup and trust me, the driver makes a difference even if the displacement is the same when it comes to the low end.

I don't know how all the math compares, but at the blind GTG I thought the sealed cap and submersive were real close to each other in output capability. I had the submersive edging out the cap sealed in both music and movies but it was close, and the 2 subs were head and shoulders above the others when it came to music.

So, if one sealed cap = one submersive, then a s2 should roughly = 2 submersives co-located, and I think this applies to lower frequencies as well.

On it goes is right! I am also still considering FTW21's, but man that would take up a lot of space. Speaking of that, the orbit shifter is still on my mind. I would give up the low stuff, but man above 20hz it would be insane. I think I posted this before but this is how Jeff explained it to me:

1 sealed cap 2 = 2 orbit shifters below 20hz
1 orbit shifter = 2 sealed cap 2 above 20hz

I think what puts the sealed cap 2 over the top for me is the fact that it is relatively so small like you said.
carp is online now  
post #197 of 263 Old 06-27-2012, 01:57 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,826
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 104 Post(s)
Liked: 380
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

Carp
I have a subm hp and was ready to get another.
Then Jeff posted those S2 pictures and immediate confusion set in.
Every time I look at those pictures of 2 18" drivers and a 4000 Watt amp
I can feel my brain clouding up, get nervously excited, and loose all common sense.
Common sense says another subm hp is the obvious choice but the
"HOT GIRL WITH THE REALLY BIG SUBWOOFERS" is all I can think about.
Mark announced that the subm xl with mate really well with the subm hp.
If you figure it out let me know what you think.
Thanks
WVchris

Haha, you had me laughing when you describe what happens to you when you look at those s2 pics, I feel the same. biggrin.gif

Other than the really nice Funky Waves stuff I think the S2 is my favorite looking non-DIY sub I have seen. Love the look... love it.
carp is online now  
post #198 of 263 Old 06-27-2012, 01:59 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,826
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 104 Post(s)
Liked: 380
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

That is a very good point. I have cut back on my LFE levels in the last week and I'm now running my subs 2-3db cold. We watched Red Cliff 1 (BTW great movie) last night and several concert Blurays the night before at these new lower levels (-10 MV from ref) and I'm liking it quite a bit. Everything is a bit less crazy LFE wise and yet still very satisfying. I know that is heresy around here ... smile.gif

So you have 2 rooms right? One on concrete and one on a suspended floor? Nice... I'm jealous.
carp is online now  
post #199 of 263 Old 06-27-2012, 02:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
RMK!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 95608
Posts: 5,659
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked: 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

So you have 2 rooms right? One on concrete and one on a suspended floor? Nice... I'm jealous.

Yes but the downstairs room (on the slab) is a little 5.1 system used primarily for television watching and since I don't watch much television, the primary use of that system is background music in the house. The HT room is on the 2nd floor and that's where the fun stuff happens biggrin.gif.
RMK! is online now  
post #200 of 263 Old 06-27-2012, 02:36 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,826
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 104 Post(s)
Liked: 380
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Yes but the downstairs room (on the slab) is a little 5.1 system used primarily for television watching and since I don't watch much television, the primary use of that system is background music in the house. The HT room is on the 2nd floor and that's where the fun stuff happens biggrin.gif.

Wait... so you are saying that the Orbit Shifters are in a room with a suspended floor? Oh my holy god. I have to make it out to California myself some day....smile.gif
carp is online now  
post #201 of 263 Old 06-27-2012, 02:54 PM
AVS Special Member
 
desertdome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Elkhorn, NE
Posts: 1,680
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 186
You can really only compare displacement in the same subwoofer alignment. Even then it is still subject to amplifier power availability.

To figure displacement you take the Sd in cm squared and multiply times twice the X-Max and divide by 10,000 to get the number in liters. You can convert the mm to cm for the X-max and then divide by 1000, but I think it is easier to just divide by 10,000.
Sd x 2(X-Max)/10,000=Displacement
A 15" driver usually has an Sd of around 830 cm squared and an 18" driver of around 1180 cm squared.

Two (2) 15" drivers with 19 mm of X-max have a displacement of 6.31 Liters.
One (1) 18" driver with 30 mm of X-max have a displacement of 7.08 Liters.

Four (4) 15" drivers with 19 mm of X-max have a displacement of 12.62 LIters.
Two (2) 18" drivers with 30 mm of X-max have a displacement of 14.16 Liters.

Eight (8) 15" drivers in my IB have a displacement of 24.57 Liters.

If HuskerOmaha gets all four of his subs running, he will have about 32 Liters of displacement
desertdome is online now  
post #202 of 263 Old 06-27-2012, 03:08 PM
AVS Special Member
 
RMK!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 95608
Posts: 5,659
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked: 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Wait... so you are saying that the Orbit Shifters are in a room with a suspended floor? Oh my holy god. I have to make it out to California myself some day....smile.gif

Yes, the effect is quite impressive ... smile.gif and you too are welcome. Maybe we can even get you some of that famous California barbecued beef ... or is it barbequed beef tongue.gif
RMK! is online now  
post #203 of 263 Old 06-27-2012, 05:44 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dominguez1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,657
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked: 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

You can really only compare displacement in the same subwoofer alignment. Even then it is still subject to amplifier power availability.
To figure displacement you take the Sd in cm squared and multiply times twice the X-Max and divide by 10,000 to get the number in liters. You can convert the mm to cm for the X-max and then divide by 1000, but I think it is easier to just divide by 10,000.
Sd x 2(X-Max)/10,000=Displacement
A 15" driver usually has an Sd of around 830 cm squared and an 18" driver of around 1180 cm squared.
Two (2) 15" drivers with 19 mm of X-max have a displacement of 6.31 Liters.
One (1) 18" driver with 30 mm of X-max have a displacement of 7.08 Liters.
Four (4) 15" drivers with 19 mm of X-max have a displacement of 12.62 LIters.
Two (2) 18" drivers with 30 mm of X-max have a displacement of 14.16 Liters.
Eight (8) 15" drivers in my IB have a displacement of 24.57 Liters.
If HuskerOmaha gets all four of his subs running, he will have about 32 Liters of displacement

That is very interesting. I've often wondered how that works...thanks for the explanation. smile.gif

So in this example, 1 18in above actually has more displacement then 2 15in drivers above.

The FTW-21 has a sd of 1640 cm squared. 1640 * 2(34mm xmax) / 10,000 = 11.152 Liters
I have 2, so my total displacement = 22.304 Liters.
4 of them would = 44.608 Liters
4 18in drivers above would = 28.32 Liters.

Madaeel, you reading this? wink.gif
dominguez1 is online now  
post #204 of 263 Old 06-27-2012, 05:54 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,826
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 104 Post(s)
Liked: 380
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

You can really only compare displacement in the same subwoofer alignment. Even then it is still subject to amplifier power availability.
To figure displacement you take the Sd in cm squared and multiply times twice the X-Max and divide by 10,000 to get the number in liters. You can convert the mm to cm for the X-max and then divide by 1000, but I think it is easier to just divide by 10,000.
Sd x 2(X-Max)/10,000=Displacement
A 15" driver usually has an Sd of around 830 cm squared and an 18" driver of around 1180 cm squared.
Two (2) 15" drivers with 19 mm of X-max have a displacement of 6.31 Liters.
One (1) 18" driver with 30 mm of X-max have a displacement of 7.08 Liters.
Four (4) 15" drivers with 19 mm of X-max have a displacement of 12.62 LIters.
Two (2) 18" drivers with 30 mm of X-max have a displacement of 14.16 Liters.
Eight (8) 15" drivers in my IB have a displacement of 24.57 Liters.
If HuskerOmaha gets all four of his subs running, he will have about 32 Liters of displacement

So does that mean I would get 12.62 liters of displacement ONLY if the Submersives were co-located? Even if that is the case it looks like the sealed cap 2 has more. Of course all of this depends on the accuracy of the claimed x-max numbers on all these drivers (and the amps driving them like you stated above) right?
carp is online now  
post #205 of 263 Old 06-27-2012, 06:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dominguez1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,657
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked: 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

dominguez1
You'll only think you previously knew what loud was until Alex grabs your volume control. wink.gif
My Captivators shake my room, my walls, my house. Even on a concrete floor, but the transmission through the floor is definitely different than from a concrete slab to a suspended wooden floor. Case in point we went from the audition of the concrete basement slab of Sheldon's house with dual submersives, to the upstairs wooden floor of KCNitro07's DIY dual Dayton Titanic MK3 setup powered by a single INuke DSP 3000 amp and Alex thought he was feeling it more in KCNitro's room. The submersives are incredibly better subs than the Titanic setup. INCREDIBLY --- but the floors make a LOT of difference if you crave tactile response.
If there's any doubt that Alex wasn't exposed to tactile acoustic response based on a concrete floor slab like in my room or carps -- I made a video in my room which should serve to answer that question. I don't have an iphone so I can't run the app you guys do to check it out on the simulated richter scale, but here's my proof.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YpXIFfScAU
Watch starting about - 2 minutes in. The walls of my house are flexing and jumping around like crazy. My projector is not responsible for that. If you look at the projector it doesn't visibly move until much louder than 106dB, (though I'm sure it's moving some imperceivable to my eyes) if you put your hands on the walls where the screen is mounted -- the walls are flexing big time. It's audible in the room when the walls start flexing. There is DEFINITELY acoustic energy to be found even on a concrete floor, but wooden floors add a lot. I heard the Captivators over at Gorilla83's recently, and he has a suspended wooden floor. Huge difference and big smiles from me. I really want to get a wooden floor in my next house/theater room. My walls are weakening over the last 12 months too. It's getting more and more annoying when listening to music at loud volumes because the walls and drywall, doors, etc, flex and distort the sound of the speakers. Increasingly so as they get looser. At loud volumes of music playback when you put your ear close to the caps they sound incredible, but from the seating position I've begun hearing the whole room vibrate and it's not so good. My rooms seems to be slowly becoming akin to some junker car with 15" subs in the back when the trunk rattles as loud as the subs. Perhaps it's time to move. :P
That said your idea of combining subs is great, and I wish we would have thought about it that day. Perhaps another time we can give it a go and see if you can detect the best of both worlds, or if they sorta cancel each other out with the expected phase issues between ported and sealed below the ported sub's tuning. How did you conquer this issue?
No argument with the suspended floor. I've witnessed that myself, and it is very cool. I'm guessing a suspended floor on concrete would get you the best of both worlds; great gain while shaking the floor and couch. Although I would think that the couch shake would be less as there would be transmission loss with the wood floor as opposed to concrete. Guess it just depends how intense you want the couch shake. Probably another advantage with suspended floors over concrete is that the shake would be more consistent across seating. Less couch shake, but more even shake maybe... smile.gif

To integrate ported and sealed, you need an eq for the pair of porteds subs and sealed subs. The eq would need to have a variable phase adjustment. I also run my FTWs 3db hotter compared to the LFM1-EXs as they are much more capable, I prefer the SQ, and I like the general perception that the sub ULF is coming from the front of my room (by the screen). In my case, the steps were as follows:

  1. Play with the phase on both ported and sealed until you get the least lumpiest response (no nulls) as measured by omnimic
  2. Run Audyssey. This usually gets me flat to around 10hz and smooths out the curve with its many many filters.
  3. Use the EQ bands to dial in your response for both subs. EQing at this step is somewhat counter intuitive because it doesn't behave like you would think it would: 3db increase for either the ported or sealed may result in a decrease in that frequency, or no change at all. Once you understand how it behaves, you can shape the curve the way you want. Since Audyssey already did the hard part by making it fairly flat, you can just use the EQs to shape as you want.

This is my result with integrating ported and sealed. It definitely can be done. smile.gif

243
dominguez1 is online now  
post #206 of 263 Old 06-27-2012, 07:06 PM
AVS Special Member
 
desertdome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Elkhorn, NE
Posts: 1,680
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

So does that mean I would get 12.62 liters of displacement ONLY if the Submersives were co-located? Even if that is the case it looks like the sealed cap 2 has more. Of course all of this depends on the accuracy of the claimed x-max numbers on all these drivers (and the amps driving them like you stated above) right?
The displacement stays the same regardless of where the subs are placed. How they combine is a different issue. Sometimes with the subs apart you can get higher gains at certain frequencies than with the subs collocated. It all depends on the room. Yes, this depends on the actual excursion and how close to that you can push the subs which is dependent on the power and limiting.
desertdome is online now  
post #207 of 263 Old 06-27-2012, 07:29 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,170
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked: 394
Thanks for the explanation, I knew it was something similar. I have 38.3 liters of displacement right now. My old eD system had 42 liters of displacement, my new one has more low end.
MKtheater is offline  
post #208 of 263 Old 06-27-2012, 08:49 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,826
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 104 Post(s)
Liked: 380
Ok, thanks Desertdome. At any rate it looks like I need to step it up!! smile.gif
carp is online now  
post #209 of 263 Old 06-28-2012, 05:17 AM
AVS Special Member
 
dominguez1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,657
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked: 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Thanks for the explanation, I knew it was something similar. I have 38.3 liters of displacement right now. My old eD system had 42 liters of displacement, my new one has more low end.
It makes sense MK. It just goes to show you that it is not all about total displacement.

Assuming more expensive drivers are better made, generally speaking they will have better sonic characteristics than cheaper drivers. So even though you may be able to get the same displacement for less money by using multiple less expensive drivers, 1 large expensive driver with the same displacement will likely sound and perform better. And if the cost is fairly similar between the two, then it probably makes sense to go with the more expensive driver.

Or in your case, multiple more expensive smaller drivers compared to larger cheaper drivers.

Again, generally speaking. smile.gif
dominguez1 is online now  
post #210 of 263 Old 06-28-2012, 08:00 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,170
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked: 394
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

It makes sense MK. It just goes to show you that it is not all about total displacement.
Assuming more expensive drivers are better made, generally speaking they will have better sonic characteristics than cheaper drivers. So even though you may be able to get the same displacement for less money by using multiple less expensive drivers, 1 large expensive driver with the same displacement will likely sound and perform better. And if the cost is fairly similar between the two, then it probably makes sense to go with the more expensive driver.
Or in your case, multiple more expensive smaller drivers compared to larger cheaper drivers.
Again, generally speaking. smile.gif

I agree with you. It cost me $3000 for my 38 liters and it cost me about $2000 for 42 liters. The difference is real world applications. The 190v2 was down 10 dBs at 10hz and 20 dBs at 5hz with a simple sweep. The 13av2 is flat to 5hz doing the same thing. It does not roll off in my room like the others. The only reason the old graphs looked great was due to file correction factors on the RS meter. I could still make them flat with all that displacement though but the 13's feel much stronger on the low stuff with movies and music. They also sound much better than the 190v2's, much better. BTW guys, 38 liters is way overkill and half that would get you reference as well. The FTW21 would get you 44 liters for $4000 and the next step up in my opinion but that is not needed at all. This was assuming boxes for $300 and drivers for $700 each. My subs cost half that but I needed 6 rather than 4 to get close. It is all about the design of the driver and to me(getting back to topic) the Cap driver maybe more suited to the low end with it's bigger motor and higher excursion. I would take the CapS2 over a dual submersive. You don't lose much in the upper bass and gain some low end, again maybe. I can just picture Mark and Jeff(who are good friends) reading this and laughing at all this back and forth knowing the truth. To be honest Carp, you can't lose! I will get some free time tonight to test that triple 8LP as a center channel. I still don't think it will beat what I have but I already know it is a great speaker and beats the snot out of the paradigm signature S6.
MKtheater is offline  
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off