Captivators and Submersive comparison in my room - Page 9 - AVS Forum
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post #241 of 263 Old 07-03-2012, 08:35 AM
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Not a g2g, so much as a helping hand. Carp sold his previous pair of captivators to bluesprings1. bluesprings1 is new to the audio world and said he might appreciate a bit of a hand in setting the subs up, doing eq, etc. I enjoy that kind of thing, so I'm game.

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post #242 of 263 Old 07-03-2012, 09:36 AM
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You guys are amazing.
Why don't you all get together and build a model theater that features flawless audio down to 5 hz and franchise the design? go ahead and make imax look like baby food.
don't let any one under 21 in, all cell phones off and a legal disclaimer about hearing loss at the front door.
just a thought...

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post #243 of 263 Old 07-03-2012, 10:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Carp,
You need to look into the fancy, expensive, instant on tactile traducers If you like your audio so loud you need to wear ear plugs in regular listening sessions. I know you've tried buttkickers/aurora grade transducers before, but by all accounts they aren't the same experience as heavy levels of bass that you crave, but the more expensive units supposedly better mimic the LFE effect.
I may be heading over to bluesprings1 house on thursday to help him setup his JTR ensemble. Are you free?

Yeah, I've been curious about Craig John's setup, I really wish you could have made it to his place so you could give me your impressions! However I am currently obsessed with getting 4 21's in here. Man, if that happens we will be able to fully test out if ULF really make a difference. I could run a pretty crazy house curve with 4 of those I bet.

The thing with the ear plugs is that when we had our GTG over here I noticed that with the earplugs in I was digging the bass every bit as much as with the earplugs out. That's what gave me the idea, I know it's a little nuts and I wouldn't do it often but it was pretty fun to get assaulted by bass with music like that. Haven't cranked a system that loud for that long since college, of course back then there were no ear plugs in sight.

He sent me a text and yeah I'm going to try to make it over but I'm not for sure yet. I really think there is something wrong with the setup. However, like I said his room is huge and it's an L shape and I was recently reading about how L shapes are murder on bass so it may very well just be the room.

BTW, Looks like flatpacks aren't happening, the biggest size is 22x22 and he doesn't have plans right now to go any bigger. I've been advised that around 4.5 cu ft. with the clone amps is the right size so I'm thinking 25x25x18 deep, that way I can have them as far back in the corner as possible. I think 25 inch front dimensions will look good, that's 2 inches on each side of the driver and that's exactly how the sealed cap is, it is 22x22.

25x25x18 is crazy small, to give you an idea of how big that is if you turn the Submersive sideways so that the drivers are facing left and right the dimensions are 24 wide, 25 tall, 17.5 deep pretty much the exact dimensions I'm thinking of using!! I can't believe how small that is!
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post #244 of 263 Old 07-03-2012, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Carp,
You need to look into the fancy, expensive, instant on tactile traducers If you like your audio so loud you need to wear ear plugs in regular listening sessions. I know you've tried buttkickers/aurora grade transducers before, but by all accounts they aren't the same experience as heavy levels of bass that you crave, but the more expensive units supposedly better mimic the LFE effect.
I may be heading over to bluesprings1 house on thursday to help him setup his JTR ensemble. Are you free?
If I may comment on this. I have been to Craig's house and experienced those Crowson Transducers myself. Plus, I have one for one of my chairs in my room. It is a totally unique experience to me. It just give you so much more of a rich experience watching a film. TRON, HTTYD, WOTW etc all take on an extra level of coolness with these Transducers. I have a SubMersive HP in a 1000cf room so bass is not an issue. But, this allows me to keep the level not so insane and still get that great tactile feel. I would not go without one now.

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post #245 of 263 Old 07-04-2012, 09:47 AM
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lol - Always happy to lend a hand with the volume control biggrin.gif
I know there was drywall dust on the furniture when you left my house and im praying i dont have broken seals on my double pane sliding doors. Ill let you know if i have condensation issues... eek.gif
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post #246 of 263 Old 07-04-2012, 09:56 AM
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Hi zamboniman, I didn't have access to the volume control at your house. You and Mark Seaton were behind the wheel on the volume control for the demo material that we played. My preference would have been to run the bass a bit hotter, but it was interesting to hear the setup where the subs were level matched to the mains. That was one huge room for the Catalysts and Submersives to fill with sound!
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post #247 of 263 Old 07-04-2012, 09:58 AM
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lol Sheldon, I think it is amusing that you listen to your system with earplugs. If you have to resort to wearing the plugs, doesn't it mean that things are getting a bit out of hand?
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Does anyone think this is weird? Wait, don't answer that...
So, I'm home alone today which NEVER happens. I put on a blu-ray concert disk and listened to 5 or 6 songs with the volume at reference and the bass well over 10 db hot. I checked the meter and I was consistently around 110 db's with peaks higher than that. It was awesome, love that bass pounding feeling. The thing is though, I was wearing my Ety earplugs. redface.gif
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post #248 of 263 Old 07-04-2012, 10:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pennynike1 View Post

lol Sheldon, I think it is amusing that you listen to your system with earplugs. If you have to resort to wearing the plugs, doesn't it mean that things are getting a bit out of hand?

Haha, yeah just "a bit"!! biggrin.gif

I don't do it often, just the one time... wow, I sound defensive...smile.gif

Things got out of hand the moment I brought that first Captivator in the room and it's only getting worse.

Still, I've got nothing on you man, you have to be the biggest bass-head on this forum. I think you should be the first guy with quad Orbit Shifters, but like you were saying you better get some S2's to fill in the "low end". biggrin.gif
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post #249 of 263 Old 07-04-2012, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
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So, last night my wife got to pick the movie and she picked Bridget Jones Diary. I'm a good sport since she watches all my movies and so I say sure. I figure that there is no way that there is any LFE so I didn't even look to see what my sms-1 was on or the sub volume on the receiver. Well, a DTS intro comes on after the trailers and scared the living crap out of us. My wife said she felt her hair on her head move. I told her that was the coolest thing she has ever said to me. smile.gif She hardly ever has any comments about the sound quality in here.

I had been playing with big house curves on the sms-1 and didn't realize I was still on the biggest curve preset plus the subs were already 10 hot.

I hadn't seen that DTS demo before, it was not the exploding ball - I'll have to go back and watch it again.
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post #250 of 263 Old 07-04-2012, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
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Quote:
My wife said she felt her hair on her head move. I told her that was the coolest thing she has ever said to me. She hardly ever has any comments about the sound quality in here.

Pick up a copy of 5 Days of War on blu-ray disc, if you want to give your wifes hair a perm. biggrin.gif

Here's a review of the BD's superb lossless audio:

5 Days of War features an engaging and energized Dolby TrueHD 5.1 lossless soundtrack. The main focus here is in the action, and Anchor Bay's track definitely delivers. Gunfire enjoys a positive, heavy thump. It spits out from every corner, effectively placing the listener in the middle of the mayhem. Explosions enjoy a positive low end support, and missiles and other heavy ordinance explode from every corner of the listening area. Tanks roll through with great power and fine directional effect. Ditto helicopters. In essence, this track turns the living room into a modern war zone. It's insanely good, enveloping and the closest thing most may ever get to dodging real bullets and incoming shells. Music enjoys fine clarity and spacing, and dialogue is focused, clear, and never lost underneath the barrage of wartime sound effects. This track is a blast, literally; it's a fine listen and one that Action/War movie fans will enjoy a great deal. It alone is almost worth the price of admission.

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post #251 of 263 Old 07-06-2012, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pennynike1 View Post

lol Sheldon, I think it is amusing that you listen to your system with earplugs. If you have to resort to wearing the plugs, doesn't it mean that things are getting a bit out of hand?

Haha, yeah just "a bit"!! biggrin.gif

I don't do it often, just the one time... wow, I sound defensive...smile.gif

Things got out of hand the moment I brought that first Captivator in the room and it's only getting worse.


Hey when we were over at bluesprings1 house last night he initially said he never listens louder than -10 on anything. I coached him to -8, then he kept creeping up from there. By the end of the night he, by himself and at his own initiative, had the Denon 4311 at +16 on the receiver during a music session. The JTR triple eights were in their element -- and the ringing in my ears today is telling me we went LOUD last night. I went home and felt riled up like I just watched my favorite team win a champion sports game or something. When I teased Chris about the volume at +16 he said he couldn't believe the speakers just kept getting louder and staying clear. He said he never heard speakers get that loud, and that he didn't even think it was possible. I told him I've heard those JTR eights louder than that. At the Husker Omaha meet, Jeff P. turned the single eights on a quality dedicated pro amp up to eardrum splitting levels in the living room area just for a brief minute to show people what they were capable of. I had my hands clamped over my ears and it was still hurting. In one word - insanity. It truly is easy to go overboard on volume if your speakers don't clearly let you know they are hitting their limits and stay clean as you continue to roll that volume knob to the right.

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post #252 of 263 Old 07-06-2012, 01:47 PM - Thread Starter
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+ 16 with the bass hot too I'm guessing. The EP4000 never cried uncle going that loud? I'm surprised and impressed!! How hot were the subs at that time do you remember? Haha, +16... my receiver maxes out at +15, so I would have to up the individual speaker volumes (plenty of room left there, they are at -7.5) to go higher. I've never been above 0 on master volume.

Nigel should have said, "these go to +16."biggrin.gif
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post #253 of 263 Old 07-06-2012, 02:15 PM
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When we were running everything at +16 on the AVR it was during some music playing. The clip limiter was engaged on the EP4000, and it was hitting the clip lights on every heavy bass note, but the sound was still great (just throttled back because of the clip limiter system on the amp). So yeah the EP4000 was beyond it's limits, but still sounded great. The JTR triple eights were encountering compression -- I could tell -- but not distorted sound. The modern Denon and Onkyo receivers have fantastic clip limiters on them, so even if they can't supply the power the AVR level demands it still keeps a reasonably clean sound! We went outside while it was playing that loud, and it was like a dance club outside his house - both with bass and highs!

For most of our viewing session over the evening after everything was calibrated we were running the subs about 12dB hot each. Audyssey calibrated the caps to reference with the EP4000 amp at 20 on the EP4000 attenuators. (had to keep turning the gain knobs down to hit 75dB on that new XT32 before calibration starts). Then the actual calibration put the sub channels at -7.5 and -6 IIRC. We watched a few movie clips and all three HATED it.

Carp, I half blame this burning hatred of reference level bass calibrations on your subwoofer party two weeks ago where the subs were run 15dB hot all day long -- then the other half I accept responsiblity for. tongue.gifwink.gif

With everyone disappointed with the anemic way reference bass sounds - I went up to the amp and cranked the gain knobs to the max on the amps. That is to say 32 on each channel. Assuming the dB levels noted on the knobs are acccurate that should have been 12dB hot per channel (20 to 32).

NOW we were talking. Immediately the three of us liked it infinitely more and the inevitable goofy grins began to appear. The rest is history. Chris got crazy with the volume control and a great time was had by all.

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post #254 of 263 Old 07-06-2012, 02:40 PM
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I've thought about it off and on today and I'm still puzzled by the sub settings. As I said through PM's I know some of us KC folk are a wee-touch crazy on the bass levels. I know some people will read what you're saying and think that we just don't know or appreciate "reference level" bass. However, in my own apartment I've listened to those same scenes, calibrated flat with audyssey (and verified with an RS meter and my CSL calibrated mic) and never heard anything close to that anemic of a sound in terms of bass. I really wish we'd have had more time to try to figure out what was going on. That being said, when we were 12 hot that pretty much sounded like 12 hot, so maybe your theory about carp's GTG absolutely destroying any sense of normalcy we might have had is correct.
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post #255 of 263 Old 07-13-2012, 03:02 PM
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+16 on the volume knob? Now we are talking!
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post #256 of 263 Old 07-13-2012, 03:28 PM
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16 on the volume with the subs 12db hot.

Clip lights were pumping on the EP4000 amp of course, but it was music and not particularly ultra low stuff. It still sounded darn good, though I could hear compression on the JTR speakers because the Denon 4311 was out of steam. We listened to it that loud only briefly and then walked outside. It was like a dance club even outside. The neighbor was out in his yard looking at us like WTH? I kinda ducked back inside. Chris said his neighbor was "cool" - I was thinking not for long! tongue.gif

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post #257 of 263 Old 07-13-2012, 05:03 PM
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16+??? How did you survive that? I didn't think you could handle more than -10

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post #258 of 263 Old 07-13-2012, 05:19 PM
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ha, nelson!

In short sessions I like it loud...for a full length movie -10 or -12with the subs 6 or 10 dB hot is perfect.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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post #259 of 263 Old 07-14-2012, 02:22 AM
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I like it loud...

pffft biggrin.gif

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post #260 of 263 Old 07-14-2012, 09:01 AM
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Being the crotchety old man on the block, I have to say you youngsters need to keep it down (“you’ll put your eye out”). Are you guys trying to reinforce the notion that the JTR stuff is only good for the “listen very loud crowd”?

I hate to keep coming back to the car analogy, but l like fast cars. I drive fast occasionally when I think it is safe and only putting myself at risk. Same with the AV system. Normally I listen at -10 to -15 reference but on occasion I push it hard. Perhaps the fact that I am older than most of you makes me more conservative or at least, more aware of my own mortality.

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post #261 of 263 Old 07-16-2012, 12:33 PM
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I like the -10 area on the master volume with DYN EQ OFF and the subs +5 to 7 myself for movies. Seems nearly perfect.

I think I used to give Carp a hard time about his +10 sub-setting (and I still do think it's a bit much for music) but I believe I tried that out with DYN EQ running. It's really alright to have "reference level" bass at -10 with DYN EQ OFF for most movies, I think. biggrin.gif

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post #262 of 263 Old 07-16-2012, 02:17 PM
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I dislike Dynamic EQ in my room and never use it. Dynamic EQ actually makes the bass too hot for my tastes in low level music listening - like -20 or so on main AVR volume.

I always just turn it off and crank the subs up somewhere between 3 and 10dB depending on what the source is.



So I agree with you James.


I did just hear dynamic EQ in a large 8000 cubic foot room on a Denon 4311 and for the first time liked what it did (bluesprings1 house), but I never liked it at all in my 3500 cubic foot room.

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post #263 of 263 Old 07-16-2012, 02:43 PM
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I guess it depends on your definition of loud. I don't consider -10 on the dial anything real special. Especially if ear plugs are then employed smile.gif
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ha, nelson!
In short sessions I like it loud...for a full length movie -10 or -12with the subs 6 or 10 dB hot is perfect.
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