Captivators and Submersive comparison in my room - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 263 Old 03-03-2012, 09:08 PM - Thread Starter
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I own 2 passive Captivators and love them, however I have heard the Submersive twice and absolutely loved it for music and have always wondered what it would sound like in my room.

Fortunately I don't have to wonder anymore thanks to Counsil who is letting me borrow one of his Submersives. Thanks again Doug, you made it seem like no big deal at all, but it is a very big deal to me, I really appreciate it.

So, I fired it up and level matched it with the mains at -10 on my Pioneer Elite exactly like I have my Caps set up. I usually have the volume around 0, or 10 hot for both music and movies btw.

I started with music and right off the bat I recognized the sound I love so much about this sub. I'm thinking, ok, it's time to put the Caps up for sale and buy a Submersive.

Not so fast. I demo'd a couple of my favorite movie scenes and the Submersive didn't do it for me as much as the Caps. In the Die Hard 4 apartment shootout scene the Caps make my couch feel like it's moving all over the place and tons of body impact. The Submersive did the same thing but it was more subdued. Same kind of thing from the lord of the rings cave troll/whatever that devil thing is called scene. The Caps do it more for me there too.

I have always been a music first guy so this should be an easy decision. However, since I bought the projector and have the huge screen movies have suddenly increased in their importance.

The other thing is right now the Caps are naked. Meaning they have no eq, no HPF, nothing. My sms-1 was causing loud pops anytime the audio was cut (which is all the time) so I sent it into Velodyne.

However, I have heard my Caps eq'd relatively flat with the sms-1 in here so at least I'm not completely in the dark.

I guess what it comes down to am I more a music guy or a movies guy...

Here is a pic with the Caps. BTW, just got my new eD center channel today, exchanged it for the eD 6" cinema center channel. I like the 12 much better.



Hey, the Caps have a new friend.









Depth is pretty much equal, Submersive is just a bit deeper.




Finally, here is the Submersive in the Caps place. Don't worry Counsil, I already have rubber pads on the bottom of the eD's and I put a towel in between them just to be extra careful.



Those of you that want measurements, I don't have an omnimic. All measurements done in the past were done by Luke Kamp. I do plan on getting an omnimic but I'm not going to until I get my sms-1 back.
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post #2 of 263 Old 03-03-2012, 09:17 PM
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Thanks for the comparisons carp, and to counsil for being generous/trusting(/foolish?) enough for the loaner! When your Caps were EQ'd did you listen to just one of them very much? Just curious what the impact of running duals (vs the single SubM) might be in your room.
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post #3 of 263 Old 03-03-2012, 09:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSmithers View Post

Thanks for the comparisons carp, and to counsil for being generous/trusting(/foolish?) enough for the loaner! When your Caps were EQ'd did you listen to just one of them very much? Just curious what the impact of running duals (vs the single SubM) might be in your room.

Yes, in fact that's how I listened to the Captivator for the longest period of time. I had a single Cap eq'd with the sms-1 from last May until this January when I bought the 2nd Cap.

This is very preliminary, but I would say that my order of preference would be:

Music:

1. Dual Caps nearfield on the side walls back by my LP
2. Submersive up front (haven't tried it nearfield yet)
3. Dual Caps up front
4. Single Cap

Movies:

1. Dual Caps up front
2. Single Cap up front - right corner
3. Submersive
4. Dual Caps nearfield

I don't know if any of this is helping anyone since we all have different preferences, but oh well. I like reading comparison threads myself so maybe you guys will too.
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post #4 of 263 Old 03-03-2012, 09:42 PM
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Are you comparing a single SubM to dual Caps?
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post #5 of 263 Old 03-03-2012, 09:46 PM
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Feel free to come by and get another SubM when your SMS-1 comes in.

Just be careful. Like I mentioned, the finish on the newer SubMersives may not be as forgiving as the original textured black.

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post #6 of 263 Old 03-03-2012, 10:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post


Yes, in fact that's how I listened to the Captivator for the longest period of time. I had a single Cap eq'd with the sms-1 from last May until this January when I bought the 2nd Cap.

This is very preliminary, but I would say that my order of preference would be:

Music:

1. Dual Caps nearfield on the side walls back by my LP
2. Submersive up front (haven't tried it nearfield yet)
3. Dual Caps up front
4. Single Cap

Movies:

1. Dual Caps up front
2. Single Cap up front - right corner
3. Submersive
4. Dual Caps nearfield

I don't know if any of this is helping anyone since we all have different preferences, but oh well. I like reading comparison threads myself so maybe you guys will too.

Yes it does help. The fact that you mentioned the distinct sound of the submersive, and your statement that it's good for movies (not as good as the caps) helps those of us that are ready to buy now. Thanks.

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post #7 of 263 Old 03-04-2012, 12:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batt50 View Post

Yes it does help. The fact that you mentioned the distinct sound of the submersive, and your statement that it's good for movies (not as good as the caps) helps those of us that are ready to buy now. Thanks.

were you worried is wasn't going to be good for movies or something? Are you interested in the Cap or SubM?
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post #8 of 263 Old 03-04-2012, 01:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgb540 View Post


were you worried is wasn't going to be good for movies or something? Are you interested in the Cap or SubM?

Actually I'm planning on ordering a subM this week. I wasn't worried about it being bad for movies. I'm more interested in sound quality than couch moving. I have an outlaw lfm-ex and epik empire in my living room now. While the lfm-ex is " funner" with movies, I prefer the sound quality of the empire. My room is not really big (approx. 16x18x10) which leads me to think the cap will be too much for my apartment. While most of the reviews I've read state the cap sounds great, I think the sealed subM will sound better to my ears. Besides the 2 subs l listed above, I also owned the hsu Stf-1, Stf-3, vtf-2 mk1, energy esw-c8, and an epik legend which is in my bedroom. The legend and empire are my favorites. So you see why I'm ordering the subM and am thankful that the OP gave his impressions. Hope this clears everything up.

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post #9 of 263 Old 03-04-2012, 02:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Not so fast. I demo'd a couple of my favorite movie scenes and the Submersive didn't do it for me as much as the Caps. In the Die Hard 4 apartment shootout scene the Caps make my couch feel like it's moving all over the place and tons of body impact. The Submersive did the same thing but it was more subdued. Same kind of thing from the lord of the rings cave troll/whatever that devil thing is called scene. The Caps do it more for me there too.

Thanks for sharing your impressions.

So for movies, the Caps are giving you more couch rumbling and body impact compared to the Submersive right? And I presume this is dual Caps vs a single Submersive?

What about a single Cap vs a single Submersive?
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post #10 of 263 Old 03-04-2012, 05:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batt50 View Post

Actually I'm planning on ordering a subM this week. I wasn't worried about it being bad for movies. I'm more interested in sound quality than couch moving. I have an outlaw lfm-ex and epik empire in my living room now. While the lfm-ex is " funner" with movies, I prefer the sound quality of the empire. My room is not really big (approx. 16x18x10) which leads me to think the cap will be too much for my apartment. While most of the reviews I've read state the cap sounds great, I think the sealed subM will sound better to my ears. Besides the 2 subs l listed above, I also owned the hsu Stf-1, Stf-3, vtf-2 mk1, energy esw-c8, and an epik legend which is in my bedroom. The legend and empire are my favorites. So you see why I'm ordering the subM and am thankful that the OP gave his impressions. Hope this clears everything up.

I remember Counsil saying that the Sumbersive and the Empire sound very similar for music (although they don't blend well together) so if you liked the Empire then yes, I'm betting you'll like the Submersive too.

Correct me if that's wrong Counsil.
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post #11 of 263 Old 03-04-2012, 05:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jchong View Post

Thanks for sharing your impressions.

So for movies, the Caps are giving you more couch rumbling and body impact compared to the Submersive right? And I presume this is dual Caps vs a single Submersive?

What about a single Cap vs a single Submersive?



I still think a single Cap has more impact for movies. Keep in mind this is with a Behringer ep4000 amp which isn't pushing the Cap to it's full potential.

I had a single Cap in here for over 6 months before I bought the 2nd Cap, so I'm very familiar with having just a single. However, since audio memory is terrible I'm going to do some more comparisons using just a single Cap vs the Submersive.
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post #12 of 263 Old 03-04-2012, 06:02 AM - Thread Starter
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I just want to add that Counsil's room is a sight to behold. He has all full range towers surrounding him (I would love to do this but don't have the space) and quad Sumersives up front (a 5th Submersive which is now at my house is his end table) and then in the back there is a mountain of Epik Empires, and yet another Empire greets you upstairs right as you walk in the front door. Love it!!

Check out his picks in his signature. The difference now is that the Ultras have all been replaced with Submersives and he doesn't have his Submersive end table yet in the pics.
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post #13 of 263 Old 03-04-2012, 06:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batt50 View Post

Actually I'm planning on ordering a subM this week. I wasn't worried about it being bad for movies. I'm more interested in sound quality than couch moving. I have an outlaw lfm-ex and epik empire in my living room now. While the lfm-ex is " funner" with movies, I prefer the sound quality of the empire. My room is not really big (approx. 16x18x10) which leads me to think the cap will be too much for my apartment. While most of the reviews I've read state the cap sounds great, I think the sealed subM will sound better to my ears. Besides the 2 subs l listed above, I also owned the hsu Stf-1, Stf-3, vtf-2 mk1, energy esw-c8, and an epik legend which is in my bedroom. The legend and empire are my favorites. So you see why I'm ordering the subM and am thankful that the OP gave his impressions. Hope this clears everything up.

Congrats! I am loving my Empire. Are you keeping yours?

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post #14 of 263 Old 03-04-2012, 07:11 AM
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Thanks carp for doing the comparisons.

And thanks to counsil also!

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Da**it, if I buy a Submersive I'll have to bury yet another cable under the carpet. Just now thought of that...

Is there really any such thing as future proofing your room when it comes to wiring??
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post #16 of 263 Old 03-04-2012, 07:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

Feel free to come by and get another SubM when your SMS-1 comes in.

Just be careful. Like I mentioned, the finish on the newer SubMersives may not be as forgiving as the original textured black.

Did someone mention I am foolish?

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post #17 of 263 Old 03-04-2012, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post


I remember Counsil saying that the Sumbersive and the Empire sound very similar for music (although they don't blend well together) so if you liked the Empire then yes, I'm betting you'll like the Submersive too.

Correct me if that's wrong Counsil.

Thanks for that. Hopefully I can get them to play well together in my room.

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post #18 of 263 Old 03-04-2012, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by morrischestnut60 View Post


Congrats! I am loving my Empire. Are you keeping yours?

Hell yeah! I have a few people at my job interested in the outlaw, so I'll probably sell that. And the legend will stay in my bedroom. Its perfect for that size room. Glad you got your hands on another empire. I know you were missing it.

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post #19 of 263 Old 03-04-2012, 09:10 AM
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Good read carp. Must be nice to have so many great options!

When you did your comparison, did you have any eq applied to the subs?

If not, I would guess that the natural response of the sealed subm (natural rolloff) would lend itself better to music, and the ported caps (hump around the port tune; 20hz(?)) would lend itself better to movies.

You're probably already going to do this but, you shouldn't make any decisions on your next move until you have your SMS-1 or Omnimic in hand. I'd hate to see you make a decision to put more money into subs when the answer could be to just tweak your FR or sub placement to what you 'perceive' you like.

If you're able to tweak it so both sub brand responses are within 1 or 2 db from each other, I'd love to hear your impressions if one still shakes the couch more or hits harder. I'm more interested in the tactile sensation difference vs sound quality...I'm curious if ported actually is better at 'shaking' than sealed. Objectively, I don't think that makes sense, but my subjective experiences tend to tell me that they do...
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post #20 of 263 Old 03-04-2012, 09:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Just watched Return of the King battle scene with the elephants. AWESOME! I haven't watched that scene in a very long time.

I had the Submersive at 6db's hot (pretty tame for me) with master volume at 6 under reference. Man, these eD speakers are so good too.

Ok, next up try the same scene with the front left Cap only at also 6db hot same master volume level.
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post #21 of 263 Old 03-04-2012, 09:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Just watched a couple of minutes on the same scene with just the single Cap. AWESOME!!

Unfortunately, it is still giving me more impact than the Submersive. When I say unfortunately, I want my decision to be easier. After staying up way too late listening to music, I can say for sure that the Submersive is my pick for music and it would be so much easier if it beat the Caps (or just a single Cap) on movies too.

I know it sound silly but I hate to give up the crazy wow factor of showing off my system with dual Caps to people that come over. I've demo'd the Die Hard scene at least 7-8 times now for people including over 20 people before the super bowl and that was really fun.

It's not like the Submersive is far behind but it is.

That's also with the Cap in the "weak" corner. The front right corner puts out a lot more db's (I assume that's because there are 2 concrete walls there, in the front left it's just drywall on one side).
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post #22 of 263 Old 03-04-2012, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Good read carp. Must be nice to have so many great options!

When you did your comparison, did you have any eq applied to the subs?

If not, I would guess that the natural response of the sealed subm (natural rolloff) would lend itself better to music, and the ported caps (hump around the port tune; 20hz(?)) would lend itself better to movies.

You're probably already going to do this but, you shouldn't make any decisions on your next move until you have your SMS-1 or Omnimic in hand. I'd hate to see you make a decision to put more money into subs when the answer could be to just tweak your FR or sub placement to what you 'perceive' you like.

If you're able to tweak it so both sub brand responses are within 1 or 2 db from each other, I'd love to hear your impressions if one still shakes the couch more or hits harder. I'm more interested in the tactile sensation difference vs sound quality...I'm curious if ported actually is better at 'shaking' than sealed. Objectively, I don't think that makes sense, but my subjective experiences tend to tell me that they do...

No, the Caps have no eq and no HPF right now. I do have a frame of reference though, because for 7 months I had the single Cap eq'd with the sms-1.

You are right, I should wait until I get my sms-1 back. If someone gave me a good offer on the Caps right now though, it would be tough to resist since at the end of the day I'm a music first guy (I am liking movie bass a lot more than I used to though).
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post #23 of 263 Old 03-04-2012, 09:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Just watched the same scene with the subs at 10 hot. I didn't really get much more out of either one of them, so the Submersive and Behringer amp must be at their limits - holy clip lights - confirmed that was the case for the Behringer.

I know if I try a Cap in the corner where the Submersive is I'll get more output, and that's without duals.

Highest levels on the radio slp meter at my LP C weighted slow response (remember I am 17 feet away from subs and have never had huge numbers in my room) was 115 for the Cap and 113 for the Submersive.

I'll have to try the same scene with the Cap in the right corner where the Submersive is because the highest I ever had there was 116 and I think I would be higher since I got 115 from the weak corner. If you missed it before, the highest I've had with dual Caps is 120.

I don't normally listen at these levels of course, but I want to know the power is there when I do want it.
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post #24 of 263 Old 03-04-2012, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Just watched the same scene with the subs at 10 hot. I didn't really get much more out of either one of them, so the Submersive and Behringer amp must be at their limits - holy clip lights - confirmed that was the case for the Behringer.

I know if I try a Cap in the corner where the Submersive is I'll get more output, and that's without duals.

Highest levels on the radio slp meter at my LP C weighted slow response (remember I am 17 feet away from subs and have never had huge numbers in my room) was 115 for the Cap and 113 for the Submersive.

I'll have to try the same scene with the Cap in the right corner where the Submersive is because the highest I ever had there was 116 and I think I would be higher since I got 115 from the weak corner. If you missed it before, the highest I've had with dual Caps is 120.

I don't normally listen at these levels of course, but I want to know the power is there when I do want it.

I looked around, I swear I've seen it someplace before, but are you running the EP4000 on your Caps?
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post #26 of 263 Old 03-04-2012, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Yes

Beautiful room and equipment. Follow your gut and go with the Caps. Duals look even better in the room. Also, if it is not a multi-purpose room then it is unlikely that you will spend a lot of time there listening to music only. Really nice room.

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post #27 of 263 Old 03-04-2012, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batt50 View Post

Hell yeah! I have a few people at my job interested in the outlaw, so I'll probably sell that. And the legend will stay in my bedroom. Its perfect for that size room. Glad you got your hands on another empire. I know you were missing it.

You don't have to be so emphatic. So much for duals for me. So close and yet so far.

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post #28 of 263 Old 03-04-2012, 12:58 PM
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Carp,

Sorry if I missed it but that looks like an older SubMersive (non magnetic grilles)

Does it have the HP (2400 watt amp) or the original SubMersive (1000 Watt Amp)? If it's the HP amp, have you tried running it in PGM2 or 15hz mode?

Thx,
Claude
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post #29 of 263 Old 03-04-2012, 01:01 PM
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Man, you really run your bass hot! 6-10dbs is a lot of bass relative to the other frequencies.
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post #30 of 263 Old 03-04-2012, 01:05 PM
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It's the newest amp and dsp. The HP with 2400 watts. This particular Submersive HP participated in the 2011 KC sub meet, and the amp was upgraded to the newest version at that time.

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