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post #91 of 182 Old 03-07-2012, 03:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by its phillip View Post

So what? Just because a commercial theater can't produce sub-20hz bass doesn't mean it's on the film by mistake.

If it's not by mistake then it's surely a big waste to invest so much into the gear of one stage of the film making process yet not deliver the intended results to the audience. This is what THX certification was supposed to prevent. Perhaps those who work in the industry can contact Lucasfilm and attempt to address this?
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post #92 of 182 Old 03-07-2012, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post


If it's not by mistake then it's surely a big waste to invest so much into the gear of one stage of the film making process yet not deliver the intended results to the audience. This is what THX certification was supposed to prevent. Perhaps those who work in the industry can contact Lucasfilm and attempt to address this?

Kind of like why bother putting 5.1 on discs when most people still use tv speakers

Don't forget even with THX standards (which I think require you to play down to 20hz -6db. Somewhere on the site), many amc theaters still didn't play 5.1 since they went with sdds while many films had just dolby

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #93 of 182 Old 03-07-2012, 04:10 PM
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This thread is full of the LULz.

Either way, Timothy has been badly misinformed about what certain equipment can and cannot do, and what professionals will and will not do. There are SEVERAL links in this very thread that have LOTS of information, and i hope he gets educated from here on out. Sometimes what we believe and know gets tested so much that we deny what is the truth, and hold on to OUR OWN truth. Its OK to be wrong now and again...its the only way to obtain knowledge.
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post #94 of 182 Old 03-07-2012, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post


Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Apparently you still haven't read the link I provided. Here it is again...please take a casual glance at least...The first page was littered with graphs and spl measurements as well as value added subjective voting impressions - showing multiple people stating the PA subs don't dig deep.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1335139

I went to the link and cannot find any SPL readings on any of the subs. If you would please provide for me the SPL readings they came up with on those comparable 18" DJ subs in the test. I would be interested. All I can find on that page are opinions, not hard numbers.

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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

The actual measurements captured with mics, spl meters, REW, and laptops were in tandem with subjective impressions, which are also a big part of these events. This collective gathering of both subjective and objective data was due to a strict shortage of NASA robots that would have run the event solely gathering quantitative data.

Please show me where the data is because it's not right up front on that page like you say and I have limited time to search through the text as I'm at work at the moment and only have moments at a time to post on here.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1335139
Post #3 and Post #7 for starters.

To be clear - The actual radio shack SPL measurements were very off -so take them with a grain of salt as discussed throughout that thread. The demo sessions for movies were unreasonably loud and we clanked many a subwoofer that day, and even killed one. For whatever reason the SPL meter in use was not capturing what we were experiencing and hearing. In some post meet follow up testing the SPL meter readings were being taken in one of the room's worst nulls, other than that I still can't explain why the readings were so low. Suffice to say the JTR Captivator pair I own hit way higher SPLs in subsequent testing with a different Radio Shack SPL meter. With a single EP4000 amp and a different radio shack SPL meter we hit 125dB repetitive and clean in my room from the main listening position with my Cap pro pair while just tapping the amp's clip lights playing dubsteb bass music. I'd suggest that the meet's single Cap pro powered by a 4000 watt amp was close --- if not at those same spl levels during the 2011 KC meet, this just wasn't accurately reflected in the values captured for any of the subs...

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post #95 of 182 Old 03-07-2012, 04:27 PM
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I see a lot of dnb and dubstep DJ's moving away from the PA subs and building/having THT's built.
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post #96 of 182 Old 03-07-2012, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by leninGHOLA View Post

I see a lot of dnb and dubstep DJ's moving away from the PA subs and building/having THT's built.

Based on the pictures I've seen linked from his sig, I'd take Archaea's HT room in a heartbeat for dubstep/hip hop/trance/house over a room with the equivalent number of big PA subs

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post #97 of 182 Old 03-07-2012, 04:55 PM
 
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This comment alone deserves a double head slap, but the one above drives my point home well enough. There are a lot of movies with content below 20Hz which has been intentionally added by the studios for effect. Search this very forum to find the threads that list which movies, which exact portions of these movies and even measurements to go with them.

Yes, but a very miniscule amount in the overall movie catalog.
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post #98 of 182 Old 03-07-2012, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post


Yes, but a very miniscule amount in the overall movie catalog.

A miniscule amount if you average the last decade or two with the prior 4 decades. Your statement is false if you look at films produced in the last 15 years in isolation. Even animated movies for kids have scenes containing ULF now.
If your system can't reproduce ULF how could you even hazard a guess? Of course modern films don't seem to have ULF if you never hear/feel it.
Tim
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post #99 of 182 Old 03-07-2012, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

If it's not by mistake then it's surely a big waste to invest so much into the gear of one stage of the film making process yet not deliver the intended results to the audience. This is what THX certification was supposed to prevent. Perhaps those who work in the industry can contact Lucasfilm and attempt to address this?

THX is a set of standards. As such, they are "minimum" standards, not the effective limits that theaters are allowed to achieve. A theater could certainly strive for additional LF extension and output, but there are financial and practical considerations that make it difficult. Sound bleed from one theater to adjacent theaters is probably the biggest deterrent. It would be massively expensive to sound isolate multiple adjacent theaters. Therefore, most theaters just limit the LF output and extension instead.

Our local IMAX theater, recently built in Lancaster, PA is a stand-alone building. It doesn't require sound isolation. It goes well beyond THX standards. The engineers built it to support full 20 Hz Reference Level output. I saw Tron there last year when it first came out. I have since heard it my own theater, which is fully capable of sub-15 Hz extension. The infrasonics are more pronounced in my room, but the sonic capabilities of the IMAX theater can not be denied.

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post #100 of 182 Old 03-07-2012, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Yes, but a very miniscule amount in the overall movie catalog.

Wrong.

Quote:
The New Master List of BASS in Movies with Frequency Charts



Five star

Cloverfield
The Haunting(DTS)
Flight of the Phoenix
Hot Fuzz
The Incredible Hulk (2008)
Live Free or Die Hard
The Lord of the Rings - The Fellowship of the Ring
The Lord of the Rings - The Return of the King
Pulse
War of the Worlds(DTS)
Tron: Legacy
How to Train Your Dragon
Percy Jackson & the Olympians: The Lightning Thief
Titan A.E.
9
À l'intérieur(Inside)(French DTS track)
[Rec]2
Battle: Los Angeles


Four and half star

Blackhawk Down
The Dark Knight
Domino
Finding Nemo
Hellboy II: The Golden Army
Horton Hears a Who!
Iron Man
Man on Fire
Mr. & Mrs. Smith
The Mummy: Tomb of the Dragon Emperor
Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones
Jurassic Park 3
Master & Commander: The Far Side of the World(DTS dvd)
Scott Pilgrim vs. the World
Gamer
Ninja Assassin
Sunshine
Superman Returns
Windtalkers(dir cut DTS)
Hulk (2003)
AVPR: Aliens vs Predator - Requiem
X-Men First Class
Transformers: Dark of the Moon
Iron Man 2
Conan the barbarian(2011)
Star Trek (2009)


Four star


30 Days of Night
300
Babylon A.D
Casino Royale
The Chronicles of Riddick
DareDevil
Fantastic 4
Harry Potter: Order of The Phoenix
The Incredibles
Knowing
Kung Fu Panda
The Lord of the Rings - The Two Towers
The Matrix Revolutions
Max Payne
Mr. Brooks
Open Range
Pearl Harbor
Serenity
Shoot 'Em Up
Stardust
Transformers
U-571
Underworld
Wanted
X-Men 3: The Last Stand
xXx
Terminator Salvation
Jurassic Park(DTS corrected version)
Transformers 2 -Revenge of Fallen
Skyline
Resident Evil
Resident Evil: Apocalypse
Inception
The Hurt Locker
Beowulf (2007)
Daylight
The Frighteners (dir cut DTS)
Hitman(2007)
Armour of god 2(DTS re-mix)
Event Horizon
Downfall(der untergang) DTS
The Exorcism of Emily Rose
Kun-fu panda 2
The Expendaples
Thor

Three and half star

Batman Begins
Dragon Wars: D-War
The Fast and The Furious: Tokyo Drift
Flags of Our Fathers
King Kong (2006)
The Matrix
Minority Report
Monster House
Pirates Of The Caribbean: At World's End
The Simpson's Movie
We Were Soldiers
Resident Evil: Afterlife
Resident Evil: Extinction
X-Men Origins: Wolverine
Unstoppable
Terminator 2-Judgement Day(DTS dvd)
Bolt
Kill Bill
The New Daughter
Cliffhanger
Hanna
Trollhunter
Elektra


Three star

Apocalypto
Close Encounters of the 3rd Kind
Crimson Tide
DOA: Dead Or Alive
Fifth Element
Ghost Rider
Hellboy
House Of Flying Daggers
The Island
Monster's, Inc.
Poseidon
Running Scared
Sin City
Smokin' Aces
Stealth
Toy Story 2
Godzilla (1998)
Sucker Punch
Devil
Turistas

From our own Master List:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1333462

If you go to that thread, you'll find spectrograms that display the infrasonic content. It may take someone to explain to you how to read the spectrograms, but I suspect you're smart enough to learn how to do it. I'll try to help:

Here is an example of one:



That is from the "Pods Emerge" scene in War of the Worlds. The x-axis is frequency; they Y-axis is time and the color is SPL relative to full Reference Level. The pink is the highest intensity SPL with dark red next, then lighter red and finally yellow and green being much lower in SPL. If you look closely, you can see pink in the 30 to 20 Hz range, then more in at 18 and 16 Hz and even some below 10 Hz. This correlated to the on-screen stomping of the pod as it emerges. It is absolutely and clearly INTENDED content.

Here is another example from the same movie:



Note that in the second lightning strike, the MAJORITY of the intensity of the sound is BELOW 20 Hz. It is centered at 16 Hz with huge content below 10 Hz. It is directly correlated with the lightening strikes and it is absolutely and clearly INTENDED content. In a system limited to 25 Hz, the listener would never experience any of that content.

You and Timothy91 can deny that this stuff exists all you want, but there is direct evidence that it exists and it is intended by the sound engineers.

Craig

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post #101 of 182 Old 03-07-2012, 05:49 PM
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Once again....



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post #102 of 182 Old 03-08-2012, 09:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Note that in the second lightning strike, the MAJORITY of the intensity of the sound is BELOW 20 Hz. It is centered at 16 Hz with huge content below 10 Hz. It is directly correlated with the lightening strikes and it is absolutely and clearly INTENDED content. In a system limited to 25 Hz, the listener would never experience any of that content.

You and Timothy91 can deny that this stuff exists all you want, but there is direct evidence that it exists and it is intended by the sound engineers.

Craig

The problem is that 99%+ of all theaters (both pro and home) cannot produce this information and thus, it's pretty worthless. The few pro theaters or rigged up home theaters which can produce ULF may or may not be producing information intended by the engineers. If you think with logic, you can only conclude if virtually no theaters can produce ULF, then there is no practical reason to expect an engineer to intend that information to be in the soundtrack. All I'm doing here is putting logical thought into my statements. I find it rather irrational of people to say I've been "owned" when clearly I'm not saying anything that is worthy of being insulted over.
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post #103 of 182 Old 03-08-2012, 09:10 AM
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105% of people say your percentages are made up.
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post #104 of 182 Old 03-08-2012, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

The problem is that 99%+ of all theaters (both pro and home) cannot produce this information and thus, it's pretty worthless. The few pro theaters or rigged up home theaters which can produce ULF may or may not be producing information intended by the engineers. If you think with logic, you can only conclude if virtually no theaters can produce ULF, then there is no practical reason to expect an engineer to intend that information to be in the soundtrack. All I'm doing here is putting logical thought into my statements. I find it rather irrational of people to say I've been "owned" when clearly I'm not saying anything that is worthy of being insulted over.

Honestly, I feel as if you're looking at this wrong. How is the information worthless to me just because its worthless to you and theaters that can't reproduce it? I love ULF in movies, and it's very much not "worthless" to me... even my wife and kids love the ULF in movies. I find it somewhat illogical for someone to deduct this form of logic on an Audio/ forum. Your opinion would probably go over well on a homes and gardens forum... maybe take it over there? Unfortunately, here people actually go the extra mile to get the ULF bass that the movie theater can't afford to reproduce.
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post #105 of 182 Old 03-08-2012, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

The problem is that 99%+ of all theaters (both pro and home) cannot produce this information and thus, it's pretty worthless. The few pro theaters or rigged up home theaters which can produce ULF may or may not be producing information intended by the engineers. If you think with logic, you can only conclude if virtually no theaters can produce ULF, then there is no practical reason to expect an engineer to intend that information to be in the soundtrack. All I'm doing here is putting logical thought into my statements. I find it rather irrational of people to say I've been "owned" when clearly I'm not saying anything that is worthy of being insulted over.

It's not worthless if you are in (what you call) the 1%.
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post #106 of 182 Old 03-08-2012, 09:29 AM
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I still want to get back to the original argument about pro/dj/whatever type of subs like you linked in your first post being just as good as true home theater subs.

Did you read the links provided by Archaea? Did you read about the comparisons between these style of subs and a true home theater sub? Did you realize that you can't eq a ported sub to play below it's tuning point without tearing up the driver? Did you know just because the specs have the numbers 20hz in them doesn't mean that it can play anywhere near flat to that frequency?

I don't know why this turned into another ULF debate.

I guess I'm a glutton for punishment, I think the only reason I keep up with threads like this is to see if the OP will learn something.
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post #107 of 182 Old 03-08-2012, 10:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

It's not worthless if you are in (what you call) the 1%.

Make that less than 1%.
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post #108 of 182 Old 03-08-2012, 10:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I still want to get back to the original argument about pro/dj/whatever type of subs like you linked in your first post being just as good as true home theater subs.

Did you read the links provided by Archaea? Did you read about the comparisons between these style of subs and a true home theater sub? Did you realize that you can't eq a ported sub to play below it's tuning point without tearing up the driver? Did you know just because the specs have the numbers 20hz in them doesn't mean that it can play anywhere near flat to that frequency?

I don't know why this turned into another ULF debate.

I guess I'm a glutton for punishment, I think the only reason I keep up with threads like this is to see if the OP will learn something.

When it comes to something exciting & with strong output, those high efficiency subs wouldn't be a slouch at all in a normal home setting. I don't think you would find a subwoofer/amp setup besting what pro gear can give you for the same money ($700). I mean, that was TWO high efficiency 18's with 500-watts x 2, which should give some staggering output down to 25Hz-30Hz in a home environment (which I've argued is all most people would ever need to get an exciting experience). That's some serious output for $700. People were trying to compare $4k+ dollar 18" subs to it which is ridiculous. I stand by my original post.
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post #109 of 182 Old 03-08-2012, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

When it comes to something exciting & with strong output, those high efficiency subs wouldn't be a slouch at all in a normal home setting. I don't think you would find a subwoofer/amp setup besting what pro gear can give you for the same money ($700). I mean, that was TWO high efficiency 18's with 500-watts x 2, which should give some staggering output down to 25Hz-30Hz in a home environment (which I've argued is all most people would ever need to get an exciting experience). That's some serious output for $700. People were trying to compare $4k+ dollar 18" subs to it which is ridiculous. I stand by my original post.

I've heard a Yamaha pro style sub with dual 18''s and yes it pounded away for music (although it still was not near as good as a JTR Captivator or a Submersive) but for movies the difference was much more obvious.

I don't think the sub you linked is in the same league as the Yamaha either, but even if it was it just doesn't cut it for HT.

Have you compared a quality HT sub to a sub like the one you linked?
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post #110 of 182 Old 03-08-2012, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

When it comes to something exciting & with strong output, those high efficiency subs wouldn't be a slouch at all in a normal home setting. I don't think you would find a subwoofer/amp setup besting what pro gear can give you for the same money ($700). I mean, that was TWO high efficiency 18's with 500-watts x 2, which should give some staggering output down to 25Hz-30Hz in a home environment (which I've argued is all most people would ever need to get an exciting experience). That's some serious output for $700. People were trying to compare $4k+ dollar 18" subs to it which is ridiculous. I stand by my original post.

Sorry, but we are right back to where we started. You honestly, and neither do I, know how those subs are even going to sound in the 25-30hz range. You don't know at what SPL they can play to get there, and you don't know how much distortion or rattling you will have to get there.

Again, you can't just look at the size of the enclosure, the driver, and the manufacturers specs and claim that these things are great for home theater. They could very well be, but there is still no real proof.

But hey, why don't you be the guinea pig Buy a set, do some room measurements and tell us what you find.
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post #111 of 182 Old 03-08-2012, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

But hey, why don't you be the guinea pig Buy a set, do some room measurements and tell us what you find.

Agreed. That's what you gotta love about Archaea - he actually did this with the Yamaha beast and posted all of his findings.
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post #112 of 182 Old 03-08-2012, 10:55 AM
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Agreed. That's what you gotta love about Archaea - he actually did this with the Yamaha beast and posted all of his findings.

I still don't think the OP even read that thread.....
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...or knows wtf he is talking about.

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...or knows wtf he is talking about.

It would be like me, a pharmacist, acting and speaking like I had an actually informed and researched opinion on facility and building hvac design.......and then ignoring the engineers and spewing terms like cfm, heat exchanges....
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It would be like me, a pharmacist, acting and speaking like I had an actually informed and researched opinion on facility and building hvac design.

So your a drug dealer
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So your a drug dealer

yeah, I push pills
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Sorry fellas, you all have wasted your money on your bass systems....
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post #118 of 182 Old 03-08-2012, 11:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

I still don't think the OP even read that thread.....

Yes, I actually did and the Yamaha was not the worst sub in that competition from what I gathered. So, for people comparing multi-thousand $$ subs to pro subs costing just hundreds and that thing holding it's own in many respects pretty much upholds my point.
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post #119 of 182 Old 03-08-2012, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by drewTT View Post

Sorry fellas, you all have wasted your money on your bass systems....


Speak for yourself fren...............



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post #120 of 182 Old 03-08-2012, 11:35 AM
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Well this thread was a good laugh while I drank my coffee. OP is either selling them or has such a big ego he can't admit the subs he owns dont cut the mustard for home theater.
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