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post #151 of 182 Old 03-09-2012, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

As long as the driver has a large enough surface area, it doesn't necessarily need a long excursion (xmax) to produce really deep bass. So, just to be sure you understand the science behind this. A 22"-inch woofer doesn't need as much xmax as a 15"-inch woofer to produce deep bass (also, the 22"-inch woofer won't need as much amplifier power input to reach the same SPL, in other words, larger drivers are also more efficient). So, just because something is "high efficiency", doesn't mean it can't dig down deep provided that it has a larger surface area.

I have more to learn - and am willing - the point I'm stuck on is you do too and think you don't

I understand the science of it plenty well for the purposes of this discussion.
Contrary to what you said it's not all about surface area either. A tiny little sennheiser earphone driver can produce frequencies below 20hz for me to enjoy in my earbuds. Will my earphones shake my walls, house, screen?

No.

It's a combination of surface area of driver cone, volume of airspace to fill/proximity to listening device or ear, and driver excursion/box/tuning that will allow you to create a given spl at lower frequencies. A smaller driver must allow for more excursion to produce the same SPL in the same room volume, but having a big 18" or 21" cone driver PA sub isn't the only thing you need.

Here it is again in case you missed it. Directly contrary to your initial proposal and continued assertion a single svs 12 high excursion driver did in fact exhibit more pleasurable depth of notes to 5 of 5 voters than two 18" pa sub drivers did in the 2011 sub meet.

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post #152 of 182 Old 03-09-2012, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey,

On a side note. Let's say I will someday have a 2800-3200 cuft room that I will build a home theater in. How well would the Epik Empire (dual 15" push/pull sub) perform in the subsonic realm? That is a reasonably priced sub with an intriguing design. I really am considering it in the future theater build someday.
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post #153 of 182 Old 03-09-2012, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

Hey,

On a side note. Let's say I will someday have a 2800-3200 cuft room that I will build a home theater in. How well would the Epik Empire (dual 15" push/pull sub) perform in the subsonic realm? That is a reasonably priced sub with an intriguing design. I really am considering it in the future theater build someday.

http://www.data-bass.com/systems

It is a solid performer, and really shines with mid bass. Seems to run out of stream in the lower frequency ranges, buy you could always add another
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post #154 of 182 Old 03-09-2012, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

As long as the driver has a large enough surface area, it doesn't necessarily need a long excursion (xmax) to produce really deep bass. So, just to be sure you understand the science behind this. A 22"-inch woofer doesn't need as much xmax as a 15"-inch woofer to produce deep bass (also, the 22"-inch woofer won't need as much amplifier power input to reach the same SPL, in other words, larger drivers are also more efficient provided they aren't weighed down by heavy cone damping materials, etc). So, just because something is "high efficiency", doesn't mean it can't dig down deep provided that it has a larger surface area.

Hi Timothy,

I'd recommend re-reading this post again about ported enclosures, especially the part about what happens below system resonance:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post21752569

Size of the driver is only one part of the equation.

To help illustrate this, consider the following scenario:

The PA-150, a 15" ported subwoofer.

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=48&mset=46

While perhaps not the finest subwoofer on the planet, no one can deny it has considerable output from 40Hz on up for the price, with an average of 115dB of output at 2 meters, 1/2 space. By the time you get to 25Hz though, output isn't looking so good, dropping to 98.6dB.

Meanwhile, there's the Outlaw LFM-1EX.

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=58&mset=59

At 25Hz, in spite of the smaller driver, it can output 107.3dB at 25Hz, for a not inconsiderable difference of 8.6dB. IOW, even if you had a pair of the PA-150's stacked for dual 15" drivers and 500W of total power, the Outlaw with a single 12" driver and 350W amp would still have greater output at 25Hz.
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post #155 of 182 Old 03-09-2012, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

Hi Timothy,

I'd recommend re-reading this post again about ported enclosures, especially the part about what happens below system resonance:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post21752569

Size of the driver is only one part of the equation.

To help illustrate this, consider the following scenario:

The PA-150, a 15" ported subwoofer.

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=48&mset=46

While perhaps not the finest subwoofer on the planet, no one can deny it has considerable output from 40Hz on up for the price, with an average of 115dB of output at 2 meters, 1/2 space. By the time you get to 25Hz though, output isn't looking so good, dropping to 98.6dB.

Meanwhile, there's the Outlaw LFM-1EX.

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=58&mset=59

At 25Hz, in spite of the smaller driver, it can output 107.3dB at 25Hz, for a not inconsiderable difference of 8.6dB. IOW, even if you had a pair of the PA-150's stacked for dual 15" drivers and 500W of total power, the Outlaw with a single 12" driver and 350W amp would still have greater output at 25Hz.

I'm not sure what your point is because the links you posted for the PA-150 and the LFM-1EX (as shown) both mention a tuning frequency of 25Hz.
Josh Ricci also noted that the EX is slightly mis-tuned resulting in the rising FR at tuning. The mis-tuning applies to both one port open and two ports open.
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post #156 of 182 Old 03-09-2012, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

I'm not sure what your point is

Didn't realize the PA-150 was tuned for 25Hz as well, but it doesn't matter much in the end. Ultimately the point is that driver size doesn't indicate how deep a subwoofer can competently dig, contrary to what Timothy is implying. As measurements bear out, the Outlaw whips the PA-150 rather badly down deep, in spite of its smaller 12" driver, and as I mentioned

Quote:


even if you had a pair of the PA-150's stacked for dual 15" drivers and 500W of total power, the Outlaw with a single 12" driver and 350W amp would still have greater output at 25Hz.

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post #157 of 182 Old 03-09-2012, 10:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

http://www.data-bass.com/systems

It is a solid performer, and really shines with mid bass. Seems to run out of stream in the lower frequency ranges, buy you could always add another

At your link there is also a listing of a Rythmik 15" sub that has some decent numbers for a still somewhat affordable $1275 or so for the light wood color cabinet. I would say so far, the Epik sub and Rythmik sub are some killer bang/buck subs. I would like to see if there are any others out there with this value.
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post #158 of 182 Old 03-09-2012, 10:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

Didn't realize the PA-150 was tuned for 25Hz as well, but it doesn't matter much in the end. Ultimately the point is that driver size doesn't indicate how deep a subwoofer can competently dig, contrary to what Timothy is implying. As measurements bear out, the Outlaw whips the PA-150 rather badly down deep, in spite of its smaller 12" driver, and as I mentioned

When using the term "typically", I'm actually correct. Most sub designs require a limit to the size of an enclosure and larger subs will get deeper in most circumstances. Think of how much air must be moved to create say 20Hz. A larger surface area can move that air much easier. You go ahead and get your self a hand fan and wave it as fast as you can, burning up all your energy trying to equal the air I make by simply waving a blanket. Which one of us is working harder to move air? Which is more efficient? That's just an example of my point. Larger drivers move more air, more easily. That's just the reality and you can't get around that. Larger cabinets which are intended to "bullhorn" the bass certainly can amplify the bass from a smaller driver, but the size of that enclosure will be giant (like the Danley DTS-10 I've seen on the other gentleman's link).

There is no getting around the science of this. It's much, much easier for larger drivers to be designed to drive large amounts of air as opposed to smaller drivers.
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post #159 of 182 Old 03-09-2012, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

At your link there is also a listing of a Rythmik 15" sub that has some decent numbers for a still somewhat affordable $1275 or so for the light wood color cabinet. I would say so far, the Epik sub and Rythmik sub are some killer bang/buck subs. I would like to see if there are any others out there with this value.


If you are really after more mid bass, the PA-150 (I own one of these along with an HSU VTF-15H) is a great value at $350 shipped. For $700 shipped you can have two of them.

That said, yeah, the Rythmik is a great sub for the money.

There are lots of options.
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post #160 of 182 Old 03-09-2012, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

At your link there is also a listing of a Rythmik 15" sub that has some decent numbers for a still somewhat affordable $1275 or so for the light wood color cabinet. I would say so far, the Epik sub and Rythmik sub are some killer bang/buck subs. I would like to see if there are any others out there with this value.

Timothy? Have we ... maybe.... bought another victim over to the dark side? I see you are now eyeing subs that are able to dig alot lower then what you originally posted.

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post #161 of 182 Old 03-09-2012, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

At your link there is also a listing of a Rythmik 15" sub that has some decent numbers for a still somewhat affordable $1275 or so for the light wood color cabinet. I would say so far, the Epik sub and Rythmik sub are some killer bang/buck subs. I would like to see if there are any others out there with this value.

Archea also mentioned in passing the CHT subs, they fit in the bang for the buck category as well.
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post #162 of 182 Old 03-09-2012, 10:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by hometheatergeek View Post

Timothy? Have we ... maybe.... bought another victim over to the dark side? I see you are now eyeing subs that are able to dig alot lower then what you originally posted.

Hey, if I'm able to work in the same budget range and get a sub that can produce lower bass, why not do it? I'm only looking to fill a room under 3,000cuft with bass. The sub I'm looking for doesn't have to be high effeciency or particularly gigantic to get the job done. $800 - $1300 for a sub like these isn't so much to ask IMO. I was expecting the kind of money I kept seeing from HSU and other sub makers over the years in the $3k-$4k range. These subs compare very nicely to the pricey ones.
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post #163 of 182 Old 03-09-2012, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

When using the term "typically", I'm actually correct. Most sub designs require a limit to the size of an enclosure and larger subs will get deeper in most circumstances. Think of how much air must be moved to create say 20Hz. A larger surface area can move that air much easier. You go ahead and get your self a hand fan and wave it as fast as you can, burning up all your energy trying to equal the air I make by simply waving a blanket. Which one of us is working harder to move air? Which is more efficient? That's just an example of my point. Larger drivers move more air, more easily. That's just the reality and you can't get around that. Larger cabinets which are intended to "bullhorn" the bass certainly can amplify the bass from a smaller driver, but the size of that enclosure will be giant (like the Danley DTS-10 I've seen on the other gentleman's link).

There is no getting around the science of this. It's much, much easier for larger drivers to be designed to drive large amounts of air as opposed to smaller drivers.

You're missing half the equation:

Vd = Sd*Xmax

where:
Vd = Peak displacement volume.
Sd = Effective surface area of the driver. Roughly equal to the area of the cone plus 1/3rd of the surround.
Xmax = Linear (one-way) travel of the cone.

It doesn't matter how you produce the displacement. You can either vary the driver size or the excursion.

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post #164 of 182 Old 03-09-2012, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

Hey, if I'm able to work in the same budget range and get a sub that can produce lower bass, why not do it? I'm only looking to fill a room under 3,000cuft with bass. The sub I'm looking for doesn't have to be high effeciency or particularly gigantic to get the job done. $800 - $1300 for a sub like these isn't so much to ask IMO. I was expecting the kind of money I kept seeing from HSU and other sub makers over the years in the $3k-$4k range. These subs compare very nicely to the pricey ones.

This should be a pretty easy choice if you would like a larger woofer based sub. Get a pair of CraigSUB SS-18.1 Passive Subwoofers for $1100 and something like a Behringer iNuke 1000 Watt Power Amp w/DSP Control to power them. Thats dual 18" high excursion sealed subs, and 300W x2 with DSP control to fine tune everything
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post #165 of 182 Old 03-09-2012, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

It's much, much easier for larger drivers to be designed to drive large amounts of air as opposed to smaller drivers.

I don't think anyone is disputing the concept that, all things being relatively equal, a larger driver may have an easier job of moving the volume of air needed for high output levels at 20Hz.

However, as my example indicates, driver diameter is far from being the only factor with regards to how much deep bass output a subwoofer can manage. The Outlaw LFM-1 EX delivers more output at 25Hz than a pair of PA-150s, in spite of having a third of the cone area, 70% of the amplifier power of the pair, taking up less space than the two boxes put together, all for about the same cost.
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post #166 of 182 Old 03-09-2012, 11:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

Archea also mentioned in passing the CHT subs, they fit in the bang for the buck category as well.

Is this CHT? I figure it must be:
http://www.chasehometheater.com/inde...art&Itemid=113

That SS-18.2 looks like a King-Sized version my beloved Cambridge Soundworks PSW1 sub that I like so much. It's sealed and has a very similar look to it. At $1295, I think I'm in love with this sealed, super sub.
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post #167 of 182 Old 03-09-2012, 11:23 AM
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Yup that's them. (a.k.a. CraigSUB mentioned above - Craig is Craig Chase).
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post #168 of 182 Old 03-09-2012, 12:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

It doesn't matter how you produce the displacement. You can either vary the driver size or the excursion.

Craig

But smaller drivers with greater excursion are always less efficient, taking more amplifier power to produce the same SPL at those low frequencies.
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post #169 of 182 Old 03-09-2012, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

But smaller drivers with greater excursion are always less efficient, taking more amplifier power to produce the same SPL at those low frequencies.

Then explain my example.

1-12" Woofer with 350W = 107.1dB @ 25Hz
2-15" Woofers with 250W each for a total of 500W = 104.6dB @ 25Hz

Even if you reduce the 12" woofer to a 250W amplifier, that only results in a loss of ~1.5dB. and you're still left with 105.6dB @ 25Hz.
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post #170 of 182 Old 03-09-2012, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

Then explain my example.

1-12" Woofer with 350W = 107.1dB @ 25Hz
2-15" Woofers with 250W each for a total of 500W = 104.6dB @ 25Hz

Even if you reduce the 12" woofer to a 250W amplifier, that only results in a loss of ~1.5dB. and you're still left with 105.6dB @ 25Hz.

Cabinet design and also, the driver's motor design, cone damping materials, etc can all effect efficiency in the larger driver. What I'm saying is not an absolute in all drivers or subwoofers. What I'm saying is that it comes down to when a designer is going for ultra-low bass, larger drivers are going to get him to the target output levels with much less effort in terms of cost and cabinet size and the required amplifier to drive the sub.

For instance, when designing the DIY sub for my car, I went through a ton of choices. One common theme was that in subwoofers of similar design, the larger ones took less amplifier power to reach the target SPL range. Larger subs had better specs and efficiency everytime. The reason if for the very simple example I gave before. Larger surface area = more air moved with less effort.
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post #171 of 182 Old 03-09-2012, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

But smaller drivers with greater excursion are always less efficient, taking more amplifier power to produce the same SPL at those low frequencies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

What I'm saying is not an absolute in all drivers or subwoofers.

I don't know... that first quote sound pretty "absolute" to me.

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That line kills me everytime...
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post #173 of 182 Old 03-09-2012, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

I don't know... that first quote sound pretty "absolute" to me.

Have to agree with this assessment....

Tim, no offense intended, but I think you'd avoid a lot of argument by simply choosing your words a bit more wisely.
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post #174 of 182 Old 03-09-2012, 01:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Have to agree with this assessment....

Tim, no offense intended, but I think you'd avoid a lot of argument by simply choosing your words a bit more wisely.

I would agree since expecting someone to use an ounce of common sense when discussing a topic is not to be assumed. When similar design, materials and principles are used in two subwoofers, the larger of the two will always have greater efficiency in producing low bass. Is that better?

I would just assume we can cut the semantics and not get so wound up in this discussion. We are all just enthusiasts in the end trying to talk about gear. I've been trying to turn this around into a more positive toned discussion.
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post #175 of 182 Old 03-09-2012, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

When similar design, materials and principles are used in two subwoofers, the larger of the two will always have greater efficiency in producing low bass. Is that better?

Under such circumstances, I would agree that the larger woofer is likely to have an advantage. However, it will also presumably be costlier, ala the Rythmik FV12 versus the FV15.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

I would just assume we can cut the semantics and not get so wound up in this discussion. We are all just enthusiasts in the end trying to talk about gear. I've been trying to turn this around into a more positive toned discussion.

It's not just semantics though. Some neophytes do come along believing that a pair of 15" subs with 250 watts apiece backing them should outperform a single 12" sub with 350 watts. At first glance, it seems like a reasonable enough proposition. Of course someone experienced in the subject knows to look a bit deeper.

I'd also like to think I haven't been especially negative in expressing my thoughts, but you can PM me if you feel otherwise.
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post #176 of 182 Old 03-09-2012, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post


Have to agree with this assessment....

Tim, no offense intended, but I think you'd avoid a lot of argument by simply choosing your words a bit more wisely.

Agreed. Using "always" in a sentence "always" makes it an absolute

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post #177 of 182 Old 03-09-2012, 03:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

Under such circumstances, I would agree that the larger woofer is likely to have an advantage. However, it will also presumably be costlier, ala the Rythmik FV12 versus the FV15.



It's not just semantics though. Some neophytes do come along believing that a pair of 15" subs with 250 watts apiece backing them should outperform a single 12" sub with 350 watts. At first glance, it seems like a reasonable enough proposition. Of course someone experienced in the subject knows to look a bit deeper.

I'd also like to think I haven't been especially negative in expressing my thoughts, but you can PM me if you feel otherwise.

No sweat. Don't worry about it. I suppose the 'negative' feel was more from the overall tone from multiple people and it just seemed to be taking the thread down a negative path. No need for that. I'm here to enjoy myself and trade ideas/information. I know people are passionate sometimes about the hobby though and want to jump to assert their opinions on a topic. I think we've all had moments of being overzealous (including me).

I have been more focused on speakers in recent years than subs. I wasn't aware subs this good were availabe for under $1.5k. (Hell even under $1k) That's really amazing.
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post #178 of 182 Old 03-09-2012, 04:04 PM
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I have been more focused on speakers in recent years than subs. I wasn't aware subs this good were availabe for under $1.5k. (Hell even under $1k) That's really amazing.

Thanks to competition from many ID sub makers the performance per dollar has skyrocketed in the last several years. I'm sure the recent downturn in the economy also contributed. Those selling non-essential items realize they have to accept smaller margins and offer competitive pricing. Good for us!
Tim
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post #179 of 182 Old 03-09-2012, 04:04 PM
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I was expecting the kind of money I kept seeing from HSU and other sub makers over the years in the $3k-$4k range. These subs compare very nicely to the pricey ones.

Hsu doesn't make a sub that is priced anywhere *close* to $3k-$4k. The most expensive sub they make is the the ULS-15, which is $1,099 to $1,199, depending on finish.
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/uls15.html
For the $3k-$4k range you stated, you can get their Quad Drive system, which is FOUR of the ULS-15's:
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/uls15quaddrive.html
The VTF-15H is $879- $999 depending on finish.
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-15h.html

I don't know what subs you are thinking of from Hsu that were in the $3k-$4k range. AFAIK, they've never made any sub that was that expensive. They've always been a high-value company.

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post #180 of 182 Old 03-10-2012, 10:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Hsu doesn't make a sub that is priced anywhere *close* to $3k-$4k. The most expensive sub they make is the the ULS-15, which is $1,099 to $1,199, depending on finish.
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/uls15.html
For the $3k-$4k range you stated, you can get their Quad Drive system, which is FOUR of the ULS-15's:
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/uls15quaddrive.html
The VTF-15H is $879- $999 depending on finish.
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-15h.html

I don't know what subs you are thinking of from Hsu that were in the $3k-$4k range. AFAIK, they've never made any sub that was that expensive. They've always been a high-value company.

Craig

My bad. I think I confused them with some other sub company. I haven't really been looking into home theater subs in many years. I was relying on my rusty memory. I might have confused them with SVS or some other company from years ago. The only other subs I've looked at in the last few years were those I could sample at Frys and those were pretty bad. Other than that, it's been more on car audio subs. So, I'm a bit outdated in the info I remember for HT subs. Looks like I have some brushing up to do. :P
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