Sub Recommendation - Small Room - Two less expensive subs or JL F112 or Other? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 40 Old 03-07-2012, 06:42 PM - Thread Starter
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I am looking for a sub recommendation. My room is about 16' x 10' x 8'. I can close all doors to other rooms. My listening is about 75% music and 25% movies. Of my music listening, I'm about 50% hi-rez surround and 50% 2-channel. My musical taste is primarily rock/pop. I'm mostly concerned optimizing sound in the primary listening position. I also like to listen to my music fairly loud when I can.

I'm willing to spend up to $2,000. I've been considering a used JL F112 or possibly a Rythmik D15SE (I really like the down-firing design with a 3-year old running around the house :-)). Would I be better of trying to get 2 subs? Appreicate any thoughts!
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post #2 of 40 Old 03-07-2012, 06:55 PM
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If your primary concern is the sound quality at your LP and listen to mostly music, two Rythmik subs would fit the bill perfectly. Two subs would also help even out the FR across your listening area.
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post #3 of 40 Old 03-07-2012, 06:58 PM
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hard to go wrong with that size room and that big a budget. the sealed subs from svs rythmik and hsu would be on my shortlist. maybe two rythmik f12's?

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post #4 of 40 Old 03-07-2012, 07:03 PM
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That JL is a solid sub for music, but there are other good subs as well if you don't mind a bigger box. For a couple hundred more you could get into a Submersive HP. If $2k is a firm budget, I'd look into a Funk Audio 15.3. Rythmik also makes a well-respected product and has lots of fans on here.

http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/po...ricing-3366417

http://www.funkaudio.ca/Subwoofers.html
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post #5 of 40 Old 03-07-2012, 07:35 PM
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post #6 of 40 Old 03-07-2012, 08:25 PM - Thread Starter
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How would two 12" subs compare with one 15" sub of similar design in my situation?

Anyone have experience with the Rythmik D15SE? I like it's look. Doesn't seem to be much talk about it though.

Thanks.
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post #7 of 40 Old 03-07-2012, 08:41 PM
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A 2 grand budget for a 1300 CF room? If you ever develop kidney stones at least you'll be able to take care of them by yourself; just watch the pod emergence scene from War of the Worlds and you sub(s) will pulverize them instantly.

The suggestion about Funk Audio is a good one, not for the 15.3 necessarily -- since it doesn't appear to be available yet -- but because Nathan will make whatever you want. That means if down firing is more to your liking you can get that exact thing, finished however you want. His gallery gives some examples.

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post #8 of 40 Old 03-07-2012, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

A 2 grand budget for a 1300 CF room? If you ever develop kidney stones at least you'll be able to take care of them by yourself; just watch the pod emergence scene from War of the Worlds and you sub(s) will pulverize them instantly.

The suggestion about Funk Audio is a good one, not for the 15.3 necessarily -- since it doesn't appear to be available yet -- but because Nathan will make whatever you want. That means if down firing is more to your liking you can get that exact thing, finished however you want. His gallery gives some examples.

Nathan had the 15.3's for sale around Christmas, and I was between a 15.3 and a SubM HP. Here is the 15.3 from the old website:

http://www.funkywaves.net/catalog.cfm?item=fw_15_3
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post #9 of 40 Old 03-08-2012, 02:57 AM
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Hi elee,
In theory one sub should be able to be used to optimize bass for a single listening position. However, multiple bass sources seem to be the favored way to go in asymmetrical listening rooms to better deal with modal peaks and nulls. So, as the owner of 2 Rythmik F15 subs, I've seen first hand the effect of a single sub and the benefit of adding a second one to improve the bass response and it's what I'd recommend.

I'd suggest running your mains full range to have 2 more bass sources to add to your sub sources.

Another thing I found incredibly helpful was an acoustical measurement tool to "see" what my ears are hearing. I use the Dayton Audio OmniMic but there are others like XYZ and REW. I charted 99 candidate sub location combinations in 2 hours so that I could then analyze the results and pick the "best" location. Do you have a measurement tool?

While you didn't mention it in your post, do you have bass traps and parametric EQ available to you to help optimize the bass, regardless of which sub(s) you buy?
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post #10 of 40 Old 03-08-2012, 05:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Measurement tool - yes (REW). Bass traps - yes. Parametric EQ - no.

Which reminds me of another question... a sub with some type of easy to use EQ or room correction might be nice. Or, maybe one sub and some type of room correction device?

A few more things... I have no inteest in spending the full budget if not needed. I am more concerned with nice tight musical bass as opposed to just being able to rattle the room. Placement options are fairly limited as I have two rows of seating squeezed into this small room. Smaller subs would be a plus.

Oh, and still wondering how two 12" subs would compare with one 15" sub of similar design in my situation? For example, one Rythmik D15SE or say, two F12SE's.

Thanks.
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post #11 of 40 Old 03-08-2012, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinzoe View Post

Another thing I found incredibly helpful was an acoustical measurement tool to "see" what my ears are hearing. I use the Dayton Audio OmniMic but there are others like XYZ and REW.

I suspect you meant XTZ instead?

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post #12 of 40 Old 03-08-2012, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elee532 View Post

Oh, and still wondering how two 12" subs would compare with one 15" sub of similar design in my situation? For example, one Rythmik D15SE or say, two F12SE's.

With a room that small I'm not sure you would really derive significant benefit from duals. Were it me I'd go for one really nice sub, like the D15SE or ULS15.

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post #13 of 40 Old 03-08-2012, 07:32 AM
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^^^^^
Worst advice to date. Small rooms are an acoustical war ! Read
Welti/devantiers paper on multiple subwoofers and mode canceling methods.

Check out the graphs i posted in my link in my signature. So many guys purchase one very expensive sub, never measure it, use a method for good placement which entales crawling around on the floor.

Use part of your budget to purchase some measuring tools so you can continue the science that continues to make great subs. OmniMic is a great measuring tool !


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post #14 of 40 Old 03-08-2012, 07:46 AM
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I went with two Rythmik F12's in a just slightly larger room and am very happy with my choice. I would always choose two good, smaller subs over one larger one of comparable quality. The F15's would not fit my space or I would have popped for the slightly larger sub even though there is absolutely no need in my current room.

In your case, I would go with dual F12SE's if that's your budget.

The wavelength of a 50 Hz sound wave is around 20' so many folk have acoustically "small" rooms. The "war" really occurs when dimensions are multiples and thus modes "double up". This will happen with the 8' height and 16' length. I have similar issues and it does make an interesting bass challenge...

FWIWFM - Don

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post #15 of 40 Old 03-08-2012, 07:49 AM
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real world small rooms usually have very drastic peaks and nulls in my experience. They benefit from duals greatly.

I would choose two smaller sealed subs. With room gain, you'll still get usable response below 20Hz. Two SVS SB13s would work out well for example. Or two ULS-15s.

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post #16 of 40 Old 03-08-2012, 08:12 AM
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This is just a thought get the sub you want place it in an optimum location for where you normally set and see if you need a second one a lot of us don't play musical chairs and realize some seats will suffer from a peak or null but rather than scare everyone into thinking the only way to do it is with two or more subs may just make them blow a sub purchase off.
Always get the most sub your budget will allow you will keep it longer and it will not cause you to keep thinking what if.
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post #17 of 40 Old 03-08-2012, 11:15 AM
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Hmmm... In small rooms the frequency modes start higher and may be larger in amplitude (less attentuation for various reasons) but having done hundreds of installs in places like big churche sanctuarys that most would consider "large" I can attest large rooms have their problems too...

If the choice was one larger vs. two smaller subs of comparable quality and I had the space and room I woiuld get the two. If the choice was one quality sub (larger or not) vs. two cheaper, lower-quality subs I would get the better one and see if I needed two, then start saving if so. Buying cheap rarely pays in the long run, at least IME.

Another option is one sub and room treatment, but it takes a lot of treatment to handle bass frequencies.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #18 of 40 Old 03-08-2012, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

Worst advice to date. Small rooms are an acoustical war !

Spare me. Pretty much every room is a problem for bass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

Use part of your budget to purchase some measuring tools so you can continue the science that continues to make great subs. OmniMic is a great measuring tool !

He said he had REW.

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post #19 of 40 Old 03-08-2012, 12:41 PM
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So are we throwing out the Welti/Devantier theory of room mode canceling through multiple subwoofers....

Start with two using REW as you have and you will find that smoothing out the response is the way to go.

Sorry, i missed the part that you had REW. Small rooms discribes hometheaters in general...


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post #20 of 40 Old 03-08-2012, 01:19 PM
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So are we throwing out the Welti/Devantier theory of room mode canceling through multiple subwoofers....

Nope. I know nothing of their paper/thesis/discussion/observation or whatever it was, so I'm not in the position to either endorse or dismiss it. As a matter of course, however, as soon as I see the word "theory" I instantly become suspicious. Often that's associated to conjecture, so I generally have reservations about putting much faith in anything branded that way.

Don't misconstrue that to mean I don't think small rooms s$ck acoustically though, because I've personally found they do. AAMOF, because I have one such room -- it's 13x17x8 -- I just bought an AntiMode 8033 to try and tame the beast (so to speak).

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post #21 of 40 Old 03-08-2012, 01:49 PM
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Nope. I know nothing of their paper/thesis/discussion/observation or whatever it was, so I'm not in the position to either endorse or dismiss it. As a matter of course, however, as soon as I see the word "theory" I instantly become suspicious. Often that's associated to conjecture, so I generally have reservations about putting much faith in anything branded that way.

Don't misconstrue that to mean I don't think small rooms s$ck acoustically though, because I've personally found they do. AAMOF, because I have one such room -- it's 13x17x8 -- I just bought an AntiMode 8033 to try and tame the beast (so to speak).

Jim,
Please check out the link in my signature, their theory was proven, i may have miss spoke on just theory.
I refused to read it until three months ago, life took a turn after reading it and experimenting with multiple subs to achieve a flat response across my listening position.

Best advice is to get at least two subs


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post #22 of 40 Old 03-08-2012, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

Nope. I know nothing of their paper/thesis/discussion/observation or whatever it was, so I'm not in the position to either endorse or dismiss it. As a matter of course, however, as soon as I see the word "theory" I instantly become suspicious. Often that's associated to conjecture, so I generally have reservations about putting much faith in anything branded that way.

Don't misconstrue that to mean I don't think small rooms s$ck acoustically though, because I've personally found they do. AAMOF, because I have one such room -- it's 13x17x8 -- I just bought an AntiMode 8033 to try and tame the beast (so to speak).

what about the hamburger/hotdog theory or KFC original recipe formula papers? don't tell me you dare eat chicken without knowing this formula!! oh the nerve of some people!!
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post #23 of 40 Old 03-08-2012, 02:02 PM
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What sub are you using, antimode doesnt cure room modes. Boosting nulls does not work, it cant.

What sub are you using


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post #24 of 40 Old 03-08-2012, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post


Nope. I know nothing of their paper/thesis/discussion/observation or whatever it was, so I'm not in the position to either endorse or dismiss it. As a matter of course, however, as soon as I see the word "theory" I instantly become suspicious. Often that's associated to conjecture, so I generally have reservations about putting much faith in anything branded that way.

Don't misconstrue that to mean I don't think small rooms s$ck acoustically though, because I've personally found they do. AAMOF, because I have one such room -- it's 13x17x8 -- I just bought an AntiMode 8033 to try and tame the beast (so to speak).

Jim, if you are up for a good book, then I recommend Dr. Floyd Toole's book. Also, Dr. Earl Geddes provides sub guidance and recommends running your mains full-range and adding 3 subs near-randomly placed with one in a corner, and one elevated above the half-way mark of the room's height and the last one elsewhere in the room. Three dimensions (i.e. length, width, height), three subs.

Then there is yet another method using 8 subs; the front wall has 4 subs on it placed 1/4 the room width away from the side walls and 1/4 the room height away from the floor and ceiling. The back wall has the same sub positioning except they're 180 degrees out of phase. This layout provides a bass wave to wash across the room and is very effective at providing a flat bass frequency response.

So, it seems like the response from the members and the experts agree on using multiple subs. Hope this helps.
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post #25 of 40 Old 03-08-2012, 05:46 PM
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if you are up for a good book, then I recommend Dr. Floyd Toole's book. Also, Dr. Earl Geddes

Both of those names I'm familiar with, and have read a bit of what each has to say. From what I gather Dr. Geddes has somewhat more conventional views, while Dr. Toole has forwarded a few ideas that have a bit more controversy around them. What I've read in the past was mostly associated to links I've come across on this forum though, so it may represent their opinion on topics narrowly focused on one particular item -- or simply esoteric -- but I do know a little of their respective works.

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post #26 of 40 Old 03-08-2012, 05:52 PM
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what about the hamburger/hotdog theory or KFC original recipe formula papers? don't tell me you dare eat chicken without knowing this formula!! oh the nerve of some people!!

I hope you at least know what you're talking about, because it makes no sense otherwise. Perhaps you can enlightening us on what precisely this elusive hamburger/hotdog theory is, and how it relates to audio.

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post #27 of 40 Old 03-08-2012, 06:01 PM
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Rythmik F12 x 2
SVS SB12-NSD x 2


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post #28 of 40 Old 03-08-2012, 06:05 PM
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What sub are you using, antimode doesnt cure room modes. Boosting nulls does not work, it cant.

What sub are you using

At the moment I own two, but they aren't used simultaneously; one is the XTZ W12.16, and the other is an EbenLee ELA-3 (the latter of which I co-designed). They have totally different sound characteristics though, so trying to blend them to work together would be more hassle then it's worth.

I didn't buy the AntiMode to cure room modes -- nothing can do that, short of reconstruction -- I picked it up merely to see if there's any truth to the claim it helps smooth the response. It mitigates problems, not eliminates them. It also doesn't boost nulls, only flattens peaks, so I have no illusions about what it can/can't accomplish. Frankly I thought the ascertains DSpeaker made were interesting, so essentially I picked one up just to see for myself.

So no, I don't actually "live in the dark".

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post #29 of 40 Old 03-08-2012, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
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I hope you at least know what you're talking about, because it makes no sense otherwise. Perhaps you can enlightening us on what precisely this elusive hamburger/hotdog theory is, and how it relates to audio.

if you haven't heard of those theories, you are in the dark. they don't have anything to do with audio. it was silly sarcasm. some people around here like to drop names, quote papers of theories who most of us haven't heard of, and then try to make you feel little or uninformed because of it. As was the case earlier in this thread.
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post #30 of 40 Old 03-09-2012, 04:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgb540 View Post

if you haven't heard of those theories, you are in the dark. they don't have anything to do with audio. it was silly sarcasm. some people around here like to drop names, quote papers of theories who most of us haven't heard of, and then try to make you feel little or uninformed because of it. As was the case earlier in this thread.

Point taken, i apologize for the manner in which i spoke. Here is the paper that i was speaking about. Some of it goes way over my head , but the meat of it i got. If i didnt get such great results i would get all fired up over it. It works and adds more clearity to inproving performence

http://www.aes.org/tmpFiles/elib/20120309/13680.pdf


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