Elemental Designs A7-450 - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 185 Old 03-21-2012, 08:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you guys for explaining this better to mupi.

The rattles you hear are actually the doors vibrating on the hinges. The window is actually moving inside the frame. They don't do that with higher frequencies. These subs are supposed to do 16hz.
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post #92 of 185 Old 03-21-2012, 08:36 AM - Thread Starter
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On a side note, I don't think he truly understands about subs and low frequencies. His question is why buy subs if you can't hear frequencies lower than 20hz? I guess I'm confused about that myself. I bought these two beasts mainly because I wanted more output than what I had from dual 15s. I got it. More cone area, more power etc..
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post #93 of 185 Old 03-21-2012, 08:39 AM
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I don't understand his position either Nezff. IMO, the point of being a home theater enthusiast is the recreate (or exceed) the cinema experience, in the home environment. Surely he has experienced sub 20hz sounds/sensations at the movies.
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post #94 of 185 Old 03-21-2012, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nezff View Post

On a side note, I don't think he truly understands about subs and low frequencies. His question is why buy subs if you can't hear frequencies lower than 20hz? I guess I'm confused about that myself. I bought these two beasts mainly because I wanted more output than what I had from dual 15s. I got it. More cone area, more power etc..

Because you can feel it. The low frequency bass is definitely there and we know that movies have been made with ULF in mind. For instance the "F'ing Irene" scene in Blackhawk Down was recorded with ultra low bass in mind using 22 Bag End subwoofers.

Not every movie is going to have ULF. But there are those that do, and with a kick ass system like yours, you will be able to enjoy them

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1333462

I really like your room and what you have done. Enjoy.
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post #95 of 185 Old 03-21-2012, 08:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks!
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post #96 of 185 Old 03-21-2012, 11:23 AM
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Very good points being made.



It's very simple; it's the ability to recreate the recorded event.


The sound design for the stellar gunshots in Open Range, the structural shaking of the Pod Emergence scenes of War of the Worlds, the impending doom associated with the fight scenes in The Incredible Hulk, all span the transition for all of us from normal hearing gathered by the pinna, and the physical sensation our body encounters with the lowest frequencies. Whether synthetically derived for effect, or an actual explosive event recorded for accurate portrayal of the weapon, the initial wavefront and subsequent frequency characteristics of the recording are experienced both by the individual in person, and by the enthusiast in the HT.

What we strive for in playback is no different, and actually quite similar, to what one would be experiencing if exposed to the effect first hand. Bombastic yet precisely accurate explosive wavefronts washing over your body, experienced in a viscerally, auditorily, with every sense one possesses. Room shaking infra-sonics, guttural LF and enough mid bass punch to elicit fear. That exciting sensation is exactly what the director intended.

Point being, I've read the physiology of human hearing, and the technical limitations. I've also read the actual testing of the finest infrasonic transducers availed to the industry, and how those frequencies are perceived as distinct tones,...differentiating that aural result specifically from the transition to more of a physical sensation. Bruce Thigpen, Eminent Technology, has conducted these LF/ULF audibility/sensation experiments.

I'm anything but an expert in infrasonics, however I've read material extensively, even conducted my own experiments of my own. My experiments are limited to distortion components, primarily structural, inherent to a wood-framed listening room encountering 125+dB of LF/ULF (peaks @129.5dB). Even with that capability, I easily need additional headroom for accurate playback of the realistic effect associated with contemporary motion pictures. Try to playback the final big effect in How to Train Your Dragon, full spec without encountering any system limitations (clipping, bottoming, distortion non-linearities) at realistic reference levels. It's quite demanding on everything from the circuits feeding your amplifiers, the amps themselves, the drivers, and finally the structural components of your HT. These broadband effects gobble up every inch of capability if played back at intended levels with no high pass filtration.

The LFE spec is 3hz-120hz, each subsequent octave downward, requires a 4x displacement (4x drivers, 4x power) from your subwoofer system to maintain a given SPL (16 times the capability to cover just down to 6hz, that one would need at 24hz). Fortunately, reciprocal PVG, and the manner in which PVG gives us more support to the fundamental frequency, and less reciprocal reinforcement to the harmonic distortion elements, and this helps us in our wacky endeavor for accurate of the LF/ULF playback in our HT's.



It's all good


Thanks

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Flat, Deep, Clean, Linear, and Loud
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(3)Seaton Cat12C up front, (4)QSC K8 sides/rears
(2)Seaton SubM-HP, (4)18" IB
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post #97 of 185 Old 03-22-2012, 05:27 PM
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Hey Nezff, I just wanted to pop in the thread to give you your fair share of the blame for the lightened feeling I have in my wallet

I have been searching and finally pulled the trigger on a custom ED setup after seeing your results. My wife thanks you Your room looks great, by the way.
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post #98 of 185 Old 03-22-2012, 06:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Hey Nezff, I just wanted to pop in the thread to give you your fair share of the blame for the lightened feeling I have in my wallet

I have been searching and finally pulled the trigger on a custom ED setup after seeing your results. My wife thanks you Your room looks great, by the way.

what did you go with bro? congrats!
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post #99 of 185 Old 03-23-2012, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by nezff View Post

what did you go with bro? congrats!

I ended up doing the front three upgraded, and with dual 12s. The surround, rear and heights upgraded, with single 12s. I have a thread in the speaker section. I haven't made a concrete decision on the subs yet, but dual A7-450 sound about right. What kind of output is your room getting with both at lp??
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post #100 of 185 Old 03-23-2012, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post


I ended up doing the front three upgraded, and with dual 12s. The surround, rear and heights upgraded, with single 12s. I have a thread in the speaker section. I haven't made a concrete decision on the subs yet, but dual A7-450 sound about right. What kind of output is your room getting with both at lp??

Sounds killer.

How big is your room? FYI, eD is building a sealed version of the A7-450 for me (PS-450); basically they customize the A7-450 driver and mate it with an EP4000 (2400W RMS) external amp in a smaller enclosure.
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post #101 of 185 Old 03-23-2012, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Sounds killer.

FYI, eD is building a sealed version of the A7-450 for me (PS-450); basically they customize the A7-450 driver and mate it with an EP4000 (2400W RMS) external amp in a smaller enclosure.

I bet that turns out NICE! Any idea how low it will go?
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post #102 of 185 Old 03-23-2012, 11:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post


I ended up doing the front three upgraded, and with dual 12s. The surround, rear and heights upgraded, with single 12s. I have a thread in the speaker section. I haven't made a concrete decision on the subs yet, but dual A7-450 sound about right. What kind of output is your room getting with both at lp??

Haven't had a ton of time to play yet. I posted a couple vids with me running some test tones.

I was going with the double twelves also, but when I received the speakers they built for me which were going to be surrounds, I liked them so much, I am doing all of them in tower version with single 12s. They get way louder than I need and no reason IMHO to have the second twelve with these two subs.

Congrats.
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post #103 of 185 Old 03-23-2012, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Sounds killer.

How big is your room? FYI, eD is building a sealed version of the A7-450 for me (PS-450); basically they customize the A7-450 driver and mate it with an EP4000 (2400W RMS) external amp in a smaller enclosure.

That does sound killer(your sub setup)...I will ask Alex about it. He seemed to think that I need the two ported monsters in my room to get crazy output.

The room is 20x26 with 14ft vaulted ceilings....Like 7000cubes

I hope I can fill it.
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post #104 of 185 Old 03-23-2012, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by nezff View Post

Haven't had a ton of time to play yet. I posted a couple vids with me running some test tones.

I was going with the double twelves also, but when I received the speakers they built for me which were going to be surrounds, I liked them so much, I am doing all of them in tower version with single 12s. They get way louder than I need and no reason IMHO to have the second twelve with these two subs.

Congrats.

Thanks! I kind of have the feeling that I don't need the second twelve either, but the room is so big...I just figure I am going to do it once so, what the hell.

I watched a couple of your vids, just so hard to get a good idea on the computer. How smooth are those towers??

Have you been able to reach that level of bass that is borderline uncomfortable??
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post #105 of 185 Old 03-23-2012, 12:15 PM - Thread Starter
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I plan on playing this weekend. I get home in the morning from the firestation.

I was going with the double twelves up front and double ten center. All towers. I got the surrounds which are my mains done first. I got so much sound from the single version, I didn't need the extra woofer.

Audyssey was ready seeing they were more efficient. Cutting them -12db. I also got the upgraded compression drivers.

Yes they are very smooth. Main reason I ditched my klipsch for them. I wrote a review over at the Ed forum about them.

My room is 30 feet long and 15 feet wide. So I know they will be more than enough for you.
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post #106 of 185 Old 03-23-2012, 12:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post


Thanks! I kind of have the feeling that I don't need the second twelve either

the second twelve is mainly there for a little extra punch but you are going with dual a7450s like me, you are letting them take care of that.
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post #107 of 185 Old 03-23-2012, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post


That does sound killer(your sub setup)...I will ask Alex about it. He seemed to think that I need the two ported monsters in my room to get crazy output.

The room is 20x26 with 14ft vaulted ceilings....Like 7000cubes

I hope I can fill it.

Wow. Definitely go ported...you're going to need the output!
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post #108 of 185 Old 03-23-2012, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by the_abbot View Post

I bet that turns out NICE! Any idea how low it will go?

I'm hoping to get flat to 5hz...how much output I get down there is another question...

Really just looking for headroom more than anything.
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post #109 of 185 Old 03-23-2012, 12:48 PM
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Dang the sealed idea sounds good. All this talk about ed tempts me to try em out

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #110 of 185 Old 03-23-2012, 01:30 PM
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Dang the sealed idea sounds good. All this talk about ed tempts me to try em out

Stop posting and start your DEMO tour already bro!
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post #111 of 185 Old 03-23-2012, 01:56 PM
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the second twelve is mainly there for a little extra punch but you are going with dual a7450s like me, you are letting them take care of that.

Yup, like I said, I have a feeling I didn't really need the 2nd twelve, but I'm overkill all the way.

It sounds like your rig is killer. You thread and build is what inspired mine.
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post #112 of 185 Old 03-23-2012, 03:06 PM
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Stop posting and start your DEMO tour already bro!

Just gotta wait till everyones free!

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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Just gotta wait till everyones free!

That's true. lol

Im free this sunday in case you wanna stop by.
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post #114 of 185 Old 03-23-2012, 05:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Yup, like I said, I have a feeling I didn't really need the 2nd twelve, but I'm overkill all the way.

It sounds like your rig is killer. You thread and build is what inspired mine.

As you can tell, I'm overkill also. I was actually thinking of doing dual a7900 but was just over the budget.

Alex knew what I wanted so we compromised withe these.

As far the extra twelve, that's totally up to you. It just didn't justify the price difference considering I had dual subs this substantial to do the lower frequency duty.
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post #115 of 185 Old 03-24-2012, 09:50 AM
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As you can tell, I'm overkill also. I was actually thinking of doing dual a7900 but was just over the budget.

Alex knew what I wanted so we compromised withe these.

As far the extra twelve, that's totally up to you. It just didn't justify the price difference considering I had dual subs this substantial to do the lower frequency duty.

Dual A7-900s would be sick!!! I have to say though, I don't look at your dual 450s as much of a "compromise" compared to most subs. They appear to do great for you.

I think the decision has been made that I will follow in your foot steps and do dual 450 as well.
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post #116 of 185 Old 03-24-2012, 01:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Dual A7-900s would be sick!!! I have to say though, I don't look at your dual 450s as much of a "compromise" compared to most subs. They appear to do great for you.

I think the decision has been made that I will follow in your foot steps and do dual 450 as well.

good luck
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post #117 of 185 Old 03-24-2012, 01:55 PM
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good luck

Thanks. Once you get some time and do measurements, I would be interested to see the numbers you put up.
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post #118 of 185 Old 03-24-2012, 02:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by nezff View Post

Audyssey XT32 ON
Dynamic EQ ON
PLII Music
Volume 70 Absolute (-12)
Galaxy CM140 SPL meter used. Calibrated by Cross Spectrum Labs.
C-Weighting Slow

10hz 78.6db
11hz 85.0db
12hz 91.8db
13hz 98.0db
14hz 98.0db
15hz 99.2db
16hz 101.7db
17hz 100.7db
18hz 101.2db
19hz 101.1db

20hz 99.3db
25hz 103.5db
29hz 103.0db
30hz 103.1db
35hz 104.1db
40hz 104.0db
41hz 104.1db
43hz 104.2db
45hz 102.8db
50hz 102.3db
55hz 102.2

i posted this back on the first page.
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post #119 of 185 Old 03-28-2012, 07:46 AM
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Hey Nezff, have you ever had the chance to hear a captivator(powered) or the Seaton submersive HP???

If so, how do the three compare in terms of output, SQ, extension. I have seen the question asked before, but never seems to get an answer from someone who has heard them all, I 'm guessing because so few have heard the A7.
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post #120 of 185 Old 03-28-2012, 11:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey Nezff, have you ever had the chance to hear a captivator(powered) or the Seaton submersive HP???

If so, how do the three compare in terms of output, SQ, extension. I have seen the question asked before, but never seems to get an answer from someone who has heard them all, I 'm guessing because so few have heard the A7.

I have not heard the cap or subm. I actually was going to purchase the subversive,then the cap, and decided on the a7 mainly because of price.

I hear that the subversive gets great reviews but was just way too expensive IMHO. The cap is priced a little better but I didn't want the Dayton amp. I was going to put the 2400 watt amp that Jeff and mark use in the a7 to drive both subs but just added too much to the cost and audyssey xt32 would have been useless seeing only one sub. Those amps are expensive.
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