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post #91 of 158 Old 02-22-2013, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

WE need to keep things in perspective, when demoing dual OS's it is like having an 8x18 system from 20hz and up and will always trump a 4x 18 sealed system as spl and punch is concerned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

JUst trying to show how I come up with the comparisons based on measured great drivers. Just look at the GH vs the LMS sealed comparison. The sealed has more output at 10hz but then the GH takes off within the horn!

Dual OS = 8 LMS-U 18's above 20Hz? Geezus!

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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I agree, my HT is on a second story suspended floor and even though it is reinforced (extra joists and bracing) it still moves a lot. BTW, you are welcome to visit any time ... smile.gif
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Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

2nd floor??!!! NICE!! My buddy down the street (and fellow AVS member) is also on a 2nd floor loft. His HT seating should include seat belts!

Next time im up north i'll shoot you a PM. smile.gif
Sounds fun!

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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Thank You, and vice versa, backing up subjective comments with real data. UXL-18 is greater than LMS 5400 above 20hz. Cap driver is close to UXL-18(x-max) so assuming the Cap driver is close to LMS 5400 above 20hz. Now horn load it and gain 10-12 dBs and now you have 4 drivers in one. Dual OS is like having 8 drivers 20hz and above. As stated, it is hard to compare in different rooms as well. If you want full band flat horns are not the best to get there. I would love to see an OS measured by Ricci.

Given the capability similarities of the LMS-U vs the OS driver, I would have to assume GP measurements between the OS and Gjallarhorn would come down to the design differences. I can't imagine them being that different from a overall performance perspective. Still, would be awesome to get all of Jeff's products out to Ricci for testing. I would never speak for Jeff, but given my brief experience with his products, I would bet that it would be great exposure and only bring more customers in! Let's pool a fund together to get Ricci a JTR pallet. I got $20 on it, probably need another what, $500 to ship a full pallet. Rally the troops!

Seriously, I might reach out to Jeff to see if he is interested in sparing a few products for shipping.

Damit… Forgot about return shipping… Blah…eff it, I got $40 on it…lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

Especially when the DEEP stuff doesnt do much in your room. Kind of defeats the purpose of going multipled sealed for the added extension.

You know what would be interesting? Having one of our quad LMS systems in RMK's 2nd floor room. Wonder what he would think about sacrificing some (wasted???) headroom for the extension?
Where are your manners man! RMK throws out an invite and you don't reciprocate. Just extend the invite to him to experience your "tactical" greatness. I really don't know if going to visit RMK would be in your best interest. *Cough* Noesis *Cough-Cough*

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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Based on Ricci's measurements of ultra vs sealed UXL-18. The OS has a sealed 18 so from 15-19hz or so the ported 13 does well. The horn only loads from about 21-22hz and up which then acts like 4 sealed 18's and again, no contest. So if we take near equal 15-19 hz performance but gets slaughtered everywhere else I would bet lots of money which one would be preferred. Of course sealed vs sealed the 18 wins, or ported vs ported, etc...

Lol… some small windows there.

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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post

I have an honest question for you guys about subwoofers since you understand the science of it much better then I do. All this capability the OS has above 20HZ...isn't it just headroom. In other words, if you are playing reference level for example and the scene has bass which requires 75db at 30hz and all three subwoofers (SVS 13, S2, OS) can play that loud, then the fact the the OS COULD play it much louder does you no good since the scene doesn't call for it? Is it just theoritical headroom that never gets tapped into unless you really crank the volume knob?

Correct. Using your example, at 75db I would say that you could not tell a difference from any of those subs in your space. I know at the last sub get together I went to, I found no notable differences in most of the contenders while playing at 85db.

With that said.

Headroom = Flexibility

Flexibility to optimize your response (if you have the correct equipment) how you want and easily accommodate when you get that urge to cut loose! I've yet to hear the OS, but have heard dual Caps in action and they were absolutely AWESOME. Now, if you are looking for a flat response and play no louder than reference (115db for subs), the OS would indeed be overkill and start to roll off around the horns tune @ 20(ish)hz. In your particular scenario you sound like you would be more of an S2 guy.

Just don’t do what Luke did and audition an OS to realize that you do in fact enjoy 130db+ showoff sessions!

I'm a member of the sealed alignment team as I would prefer having reference extension from 2-80hz vs crazy output above 25hz. All of my favorite frequencies are below 25hz anyway…
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post #92 of 158 Old 02-22-2013, 10:07 AM
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Look at the GH vs sealed LMS 5400 at 20hz, 14 dBs more and that is like having 4+ sealed LMS 5400's! The same should be true for the sealed Cap single vs the OS. Horn loading is awesome but you lose the low end. In the case of the GH the single sealed LMS 5400 has almost a two to 1 advantage meaning it would take two GH's to equal a single sealed LMS 5400. In the case of the OS vs Cap sealed it should be close one vs one due to the sealed chamber.

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post #93 of 158 Old 02-22-2013, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post


Dual OS = 8 LMS-U 18's above 20Hz? Geezus!

Sounds fun!
Given the capability similarities of the LMS-U vs the OS driver, I would have to assume GP measurements between the OS and Gjallarhorn would come down to the design differences. I can't imagine them being that different from a overall performance perspective. Still, would be awesome to get all of Jeff's products out to Ricci for testing. I would never speak for Jeff, but given my brief experience with his products, I would bet that it would be great exposure and only bring more customers in! Let's pool a fund together to get Ricci a JTR pallet. I got $20 on it, probably need another what, $500 to ship a full pallet. Rally the troops!

Seriously, I might reach out to Jeff to see if he is interested in sparing a few products for shipping.

Damit… Forgot about return shipping… Blah…eff it, I got $40 on it…lol
Where are your manners man! RMK throws out an invite and you don't reciprocate. Just extend the invite to him to experience your "tactical" greatness. I really don't know if going to visit RMK would be in your best interest. *Cough* Noesis *Cough-Cough*
Lol… some small windows there.
Correct. Using your example, at 75db I would say that you could not tell a difference from any of those subs in your space. I know at the last sub get together I went to, I found no notable differences in most of the contenders while playing at 85db.

With that said.

Headroom = Flexibility

Flexibility to optimize your response (if you have the correct equipment) how you want and easily accommodate when you get that urge to cut loose! I've yet to hear the OS, but have heard dual Caps in action and they were absolutely AWESOME. Now, if you are looking for a flat response and play no louder than reference (115db for subs), the OS would indeed be overkill and start to roll off around the horns tune @ 20(ish)hz. In your particular scenario you sound like you would be more of an S2 guy.

Just don’t do what Luke did and audition an OS to realize that you do in fact enjoy 130db+I'm a member of the sealed alignment team as I would prefer having reference extension from 2-80hz vs crazy output above 25hz. All of my favorite frequencies are below 25hz anyway…[/e below 25hz anyway…

That is part of the reason I went with dual JTR S2 instead of dual OS. I am sure, though, I would have been happy with either.
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post #94 of 158 Old 02-22-2013, 11:02 AM
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Question for you guys. Would the horn amplify the harmonic distortion above 20hz since its in the horns passband? I would think so.

Jeff posted this on his forum
http://jtrspeakers.websitetoolbox.com/post/2012-Captivator-S1-(sealed)-update-1122012-5603400?trail=15
Its important to pick the subwoofer that is best for you.
Output above 20hz:
1) Orbit Shifter LF
2) Captivator
3) Captivator S

Output below 20hz:
1) Captivator S
2) Orbit Shifter LF
3) Captivator

Size:
1)Captivator S
2)Captivator
3)Orbit Shifter

He has the cap s above the OS LF for below 20hz. Of course the LFU extends a bit deeper.I thought maybe this was because the OS driver was dsp limited below 20hz so it wouldn't make distortion to be amplified by the horn. These are just random thoughts in my head and I may be way off base. Just throwing it out there to see what you guys think.

I have heard duals of S2's and OS lfu and am very impressed with both designs. Can't go wrong with either.

Edit: Nevermind, I found most of my answers here.
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=131968.0
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post #95 of 158 Old 02-22-2013, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Look at the GH vs sealed LMS 5400 at 20hz, 14 dBs more and that is like having 4+ sealed LMS 5400's! The same should be true for the sealed Cap single vs the OS. Horn loading is awesome but you lose the low end. In the case of the GH the single sealed LMS 5400 has almost a two to 1 advantage meaning it would take two GH's to equal a single sealed LMS 5400. In the case of the OS vs Cap sealed it should be close one vs one due to the sealed chamber.

Yeah man, those GH's sound more and more ridiculously awesome everyday… Might be appropriate for my next space.

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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post

That is part of the reason I went with dual JTR S2 instead of dual OS. I am sure, though, I would have been happy with either.

Haha, I thought your question was "theoretical."

Especially since you are a "Yaris" kind of guy. Just saw your mancave though… Very nice man! Are the Noesis on the radar or was that part of the theoretical M5 statement…lol
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My answer = Yaris...take the difference in price and use it to buy a 7.1 Noesis system, buy myself an M3 and pocket the change tongue.gif

I didn't say buy ... I said "be in" a Yaris going 90mph.

Isn't the M3 a girls car ... eek.gifwink.gif

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Where are your manners man! RMK throws out an invite and you don't reciprocate. Just extend the invite to him to experience your "tactical" greatness. I really don't know if going to visit RMK would be in your best interest. *Cough* Noesis *Cough-Cough*

CHILL OUT HOMIE! tongue.gif

I dont get up North very often but the next time i do i'll definitely shoot him a PM. Aside from the OS's, i'd love to hear the Noesis too. And of course he's welcome to stop by my place anytime he's in the area. That pretty much goes for any AVS member really. cool.gif


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Isn't the M3 a girls car ... eek.gifwink.gif
Sure is. Anything less than 10cyl is considered a chick car right?biggrin.gif
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post #98 of 158 Old 02-22-2013, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I didn't say buy ... I said "be in" a Yaris going 90mph.

Isn't the M3 a girls car ... eek.gifwink.gif

My brother has an M3 and lives in Seatlle. I will tell him you called him a chick biggrin.gif
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post #99 of 158 Old 02-22-2013, 12:39 PM
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Yeah man, those GH's sound more and more ridiculously awesome everyday… Might be appropriate for my next space.
Haha, I thought your question was "theoretical."

Especially since you are a "Yaris" kind of guy. Just saw your mancave though… Very nice man! Are the Noesis on the radar or was that part of the theoretical M5 statement…lol

I just went through an upgrade cycle. I would consider the Noesis for my front 3 speakers but not anytime soon. Might consider it in the fall heading into Christmas, as that is when I find myself getting the upgrade bug. I have golf season coming up and I usually find myself consumed by that addiciton during the warmer months smile.gif
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post #100 of 158 Old 02-22-2013, 12:47 PM
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Will the OS exhibit any "ringing" qualities to it? Data-bass.com suggests that most horn designs may suffer from "ringing". Is this applicable to the OS?
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post #101 of 158 Old 02-22-2013, 08:43 PM
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Where are your manners man! RMK throws out an invite and you don't reciprocate. Just extend the invite to him to experience your "tactical" greatness. I really don't know if going to visit RMK would be in your best interest. *Cough* Noesis *Cough-Cough*

I don't think he would be jealous at all.

I've heard Noesis and LS6, both are great speakers. I'm pretty happy with what I have, but let's just say that if edogg ever wants to sell his LS6's, I would be a prospective buyer.

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post #102 of 158 Old 02-22-2013, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post

I've yet to hear the OS, but have heard dual Caps in action and they were absolutely AWESOME.

yes, yes they are! wink.gif
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I'm a member of the sealed alignment team as I would prefer having reference extension from 2-80hz vs crazy output above 25hz. All of my favorite frequencies are below 25hz anyway…

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post #103 of 158 Old 02-22-2013, 09:29 PM
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Well, that is just it, why not have both!

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post #104 of 158 Old 02-22-2013, 09:34 PM
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Not everybody has room or WAF for sixteen eighteen inch drivers. I'm not good looking enough to smooth that over - - - I'm pretty sure my wife would kick me to the curb. tongue.gif

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post #105 of 158 Old 02-22-2013, 09:38 PM
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No kidding smile.gif

16 are not needed for both unless you are outside! Hell, I have 12 little guys and I have to turn them down!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

let's just say that if edogg ever wants to sell his LS6's, I would be a prospective buyer.
Only if a pair of LS9's ever pop up for sale. biggrin.gif
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post #107 of 158 Old 02-23-2013, 01:55 PM
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Only if a pair of LS9's ever pop up for sale. biggrin.gif

Kind of ironic that Shifter's final speaker design is now so coveted. Watch out for that peeling veneer ... wink.gif

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post #108 of 158 Old 02-23-2013, 03:29 PM
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Watch out for that peeling veneer ... wink.gif
As a previous owner of Rockets, MFW's, ELT's, and the X lineup, I can honestly say, I know EXACTLY what you mean! biggrin.gif
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post #109 of 158 Old 02-24-2013, 09:28 AM
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Kind of ironic that Shifter's final speaker design is now so coveted. Watch out for that peeling veneer ... wink.gif



While Shifty may be responsible for the veneer issues on the speakers he sold, he didn't design the LS6/9. And the design has been picked up and put back into production by another company.

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post #110 of 158 Old 02-24-2013, 06:45 PM
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While Shifty may be responsible for the veneer issues on the speakers he sold, he didn't design the LS6/9. And the design has been picked up and put back into production by another company.

Yeah I'm aware of Danny Richie's (Mr. cables make a difference) contributions but I heard Shifter had the napkin draw inspiration for them. Of course you would know better than me.

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post #111 of 158 Old 02-24-2013, 08:43 PM
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Yeah I'm aware of Danny Richie's (Mr. cables make a difference) contributions but I heard Shifter had the napkin draw inspiration for them.

Might want to check your sources, I wouldn't call that accurate at all.
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Of course you would know better than me.

What I know of the LS6 is from info that is available to most anyone's fingertips. That and hearing them (and a Noesis design, the S2 and the OS). Have you listened to them?

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post #112 of 158 Old 02-25-2013, 09:50 AM
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Might want to check your sources, I wouldn't call that accurate at all.
What I know of the LS6 is from info that is available to most anyone's fingertips. That and hearing them (and a Noesis design, the S2 and the OS). Have you listened to them?

My sources are fine but thanks for your concern. rolleyes.gif

No I haven't heard the LS speakers and my comments were regarding the veneer delaminating, cracking, bubbling and there are plenty of photos of that.

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post #113 of 158 Old 03-12-2013, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

yes, yes they are! wink.gif
Bullocks --- you'd take loud over deep and you know it. I only met you for an afernoon and I know this! The only reason you are choosing extension over spl is cause you are hitting both. For those who don't know it - popalock is making a system with SIXTEEN 18" subwoofers.
biggrin.gif

lol...Man, as much as we BS on the forums and phone convos, it's weird when you put that into perspective. Same goes for about 8 other bass brothers. I talk to you guys so much, but have actually only met a few of you guys...

Anyway, so far, with 8 SI's up and running, I think I like them crossed at 50Hz. The midbass the SI's produce is just too overbearing... I might cross the next 8 that are going nearfield even lower. I'll be making a dedicated thread on the build soon.

Back OT. I'm going to have to call RMK! out pubically. Get that thread organized man, so I can use your setup as the price/performance benchmark for the non-DIY crowd.
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post #114 of 158 Old 03-12-2013, 09:17 AM
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lol...Man, as much as we BS on the forums and phone convos, it's weird when you put that into perspective. Same goes for about 8 other bass brothers. I talk to you guys so much, but have actually only met a few of you guys...

Anyway, so far, with 8 SI's up and running, I think I like them crossed at 50Hz. The midbass the SI's produce is just too overbearing... I might cross the next 8 that are going nearfield even lower. I'll be making a dedicated thread on the build soon.

Back OT. I'm going to have to call RMK! out pubically. Get that thread organized man, so I can use your setup as the price/performance benchmark for the non-DIY crowd.


It is a lot of work to trying to organize that stream of consciousness mess and I actually (at your prodding) started but it may be a while ... smile.gif

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post #115 of 158 Old 04-15-2013, 06:40 AM
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Sooooo... I finally got a chance to hear the S2(s) in person.

Can someone remind me again what the cost difference between a OS and a S2 is?

Aren't they similar in price and use the same amp? I can't get on the JTR site from work and I don't have my phone to look it up for myself.
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post #116 of 158 Old 04-15-2013, 06:54 AM
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Same cost...both 3k. Different drivers.

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post #117 of 158 Old 04-15-2013, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Same cost...both 3k. Different drivers.

Thanks. I thought the dual S2's were pretty impressive, but thinking back to the October 2012 NE GTG I have to say that I would prefer dual Cap's. Obviously the S2's were digging deeper, but I can say in all confidence that I would be happier with dual Cap's. Based on the methodoligy that dual Cap's = the output of one OS, I would pick the OS over a single S2. Hell, I am confident I would prefer a single OS vs. dual S2's given the pricing vs. performance.

Again, I loved the S2's....but even if you were space limited and could only squeze in one S2, I would prefer just going with a Cap...

That's my .02
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post #118 of 158 Old 04-15-2013, 09:36 AM
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A horn based sub is a little different animal. I got started with horn subs with dual Danley TH-SPUD's. They had a unique sound signature that I liked but Danley's dual 8" driver implementation just would not cut it when pushed. They originally called it the Couch Sub (apparently Danley wasn't aware of home theater chairs wink.gif) and the idea was to use it as a riser and that put you in what TD called the horn bubble. When used that way they were great but there were issues. The resultant DTS-10 resolved those issues but for me, the OS is a more user friendly (turn key) approach. I love them for music and HT and have never seriously considered anything else.

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post #119 of 158 Old 07-10-2013, 07:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by subyguy View Post

Another option is to do what I have done and use a single OS for 25-80Hz and then add a couple sealed 18's for the 0-25Hz. With the narrow operating band you can boost the sh!t out of them safely and have a very smooth response from about 5-80Hz with only 3 drivers. Everyone is afraid of mixing the horn and sealed alignments but I have had no issue making mine play nicely. I just tweaked the delay on the sealed a tiny bit with my minidsp and everything smoothed right out.

Do you think two HSU ULF 15 would do the job? If so, how do i tune them to below 20hz? The trib on the sub doens't even go that low.. i think it's between 80-50hz...
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post #120 of 158 Old 05-22-2014, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post


Do you think two HSU ULF 15 would do the job? If so, how do i tune them to below 20hz? The trib on the sub doens't even go that low.. i think it's between 80-50hz...


Wow, so after all that, in your opinion would you go with 4 S2s or 2 OSs for a large room?

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