Can dual PB12's be bested for $1200? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 23 Old 03-13-2012, 04:52 AM - Thread Starter
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If someone had the opportunity to buy two PB12's for $1200, would there be anyother options that would better them for $1200 total or less total shipped ?
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post #2 of 23 Old 03-13-2012, 05:35 AM
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Are these the NSD's?


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Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

If someone had the opportunity to buy two PB12's for $1200, would there be anyother options that would better them for $1200 total or less total shipped ?

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post #3 of 23 Old 03-13-2012, 05:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, NSD's with 400w Sledge amps.
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post #4 of 23 Old 03-13-2012, 05:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

If someone had the opportunity to buy two PB12's for $1200, would there be anyother options that would better them for $1200 total or less total shipped ?

Depends on what your goal is.
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post #5 of 23 Old 03-13-2012, 05:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Loudest and cleanest option that is available right now for that total.
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post #6 of 23 Old 03-13-2012, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

Loudest and cleanest option that is available right now for that total.

I figured that, but it's not quite that simple. An Epik Empire can match or exceed the clean output (as defined by the CEA2010 max output testing) of a pair of PB12-NSDs at 40Hz on up, and from 16Hz on down. Of course, around the tuning point of the PB12, the ported design gives it a serious advantage, so a single PB12 can technically outperform the Empire at 20Hz.

Also, if $1200 isn't a hard limit, a single Rythmik FV15HP for $1274+shipping would meet or exceed a pair of PB12-NSDs across the spectrum.
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post #7 of 23 Old 03-13-2012, 06:15 AM - Thread Starter
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$1200 is a hard cap. The FV15HP is ~$1450 shipped so too much.
18Hz-50Hz is what I would consider the major subwoofer range, so the Empire doesn't quite fit for that.
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post #8 of 23 Old 03-13-2012, 06:26 AM
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Sounds like a good option.

One reason it depends on your goals is that a single larger sub could be louder but maybe only at a certain listening position rather than throughout the room.

Assuming duals, it sounds like you've got a good deal. I won't say it's such an incredible deal that you would never find anything to compare. For example, dual SS-18.1's and a used amp. Or dual lfm1-EX's on sale.
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post #9 of 23 Old 03-13-2012, 06:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beetlesnack View Post

Sounds like a good option.

One reason it depends on your goals is that a single larger sub could be louder but maybe only at a certain listening position rather than throughout the room.

Assuming duals, it sounds like you've got a good deal. I won't say it's such an incredible deal that you would never find anything to compare. For example, dual SS-18.1's and a used amp. Or dual lfm1-EX's on sale.

I have four listening positions, but just two are used often and they are right next to each other, one PB12 hits both spots well.
So....I am open to other options including a big solo sub.
The LFM1-EX's wont be on sale again for some time according to the company so they are out. (they also have port chuffing when pushed hard which I don't want)
Those CT 18's aren't more than $1200 for two and a ~$300 used pro amp?
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post #10 of 23 Old 03-13-2012, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

I have four listening positions, but just two are used often and they are right next to each other, one PB12 hits both spots well.
So....I am open to other options including a big solo sub.
The LFM1-EX's wont be on sale again for some time according to the company so they are out. (they also have port chuffing when pushed hard which I don't want)
Those CT 18's aren't more than $1200 for two and a ~$300 used pro amp?

The 18.1's are 1045 shipped for a new pair, and you're probably looking at 200 for a used pro amp. So that could be slightly over budget unless you haggle a bit or buy used subs.

As for a single sub under 1200, there are lots of options. VTF-15h, VS-18.1, SS-18.2, FV15, etc.

As always, buying used can be a good value if you're open to that. Also going with a vendor local to you can save money on shipping.
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post #11 of 23 Old 03-13-2012, 06:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beetlesnack View Post

The 18.1's are 1045 shipped for a new pair, and you're probably looking at 200 for a used pro amp. So that could be slightly over budget unless you haggle a bit or buy used subs.

As for a single sub under 1200, there are lots of options. VTF-15h, VS-18.1, SS-18.2, FV15, etc.

As always, buying used can be a good value if you're open to that. Also going with a vendor local to you can save money on shipping.

I suppose I will look for some amps, but I'm guessing the EP2500/4000 is what you are referring to as being $200, is that enough amp?
Would the FV15(non-HP) and VTF-15H outperform the dual PB12's?
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post #12 of 23 Old 03-13-2012, 07:08 AM
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A pair of those NSD PB12's would be sweet ! Will you be using some measuement gear to get the most out of the pair ?
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post #13 of 23 Old 03-13-2012, 07:17 AM - Thread Starter
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All I have is the Audyssey in my Denon AVR and a ratshack spl meter.
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post #14 of 23 Old 03-13-2012, 07:36 AM
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Didn't you just buy a PB12? If you already own one, a second matching one makes the most sense to me.
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post #15 of 23 Old 03-13-2012, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

Didn't you just buy a PB12? If you already own one, a second matching one makes the most sense to me.

You could always upgrade to the Plus I think SVS still has the upgrade policy.
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post #16 of 23 Old 03-13-2012, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

I suppose I will look for some amps, but I'm guessing the EP2500/4000 is what you are referring to as being $200, is that enough amp?
Would the FV15(non-HP) and VTF-15H outperform the dual PB12's?

Yes, I was thinking of that amp. It would definitely be enough to drive dual 18.1's. Might need to be open to some EQ at some point as well.

I can't really say whether those other subs would outperform the pb12's. There is a chart somewhere showing test results with some of these on there, that would be useful. I am guessing that if you have the pb12's in the same spot, the performance would be similar. And you would have the option of spacing them out for a more even response throughout the room.
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post #17 of 23 Old 03-13-2012, 11:20 AM
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Can u work in $250 for a Dayton OmniMic, its a tool we all need !
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post #18 of 23 Old 03-13-2012, 11:38 AM
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Two subs usually better than one if it's in the same price range. Especially if your room isn't giant. I personally would get 2 NSDs if I could get them for 1200.

I bought my NSD in about the same time as you did yours. And I am returning mine because it's too underpowered for my new room in the Basement. I opted for a Captivator but that's also a lot more expensive. Once the subwoofer bug bites, it gets expensive rather quick. One day a Sub is amazing, next thing you know you want to try even better things.

But if I had an enclosed room with <4000 cubic feet I'd DEFINITELY go with 2 NSDs.

If I had a larger room and had to choose between 2 NSDs or 1 more powerful sub, I'd go with the more powerful sub and by a second one later.


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post #19 of 23 Old 03-13-2012, 01:43 PM - Thread Starter
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I am in a ~2800 closed cu ft space.
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post #20 of 23 Old 03-13-2012, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

Loudest and cleanest option that is available right now for that total.

Are you prepared to co-locate dual PB-12's to get the theoretical maximum of 6db (over a single)? If you don't co-locate them you might end up with a theoretical 3 db. IMHO it's not worth $600 for another 3db, but YMMV
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post #21 of 23 Old 03-13-2012, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

Are you prepared to co-locate dual PB-12's to get the theoretical maximum of 6db (over a single)? If you don't co-locate them you might end up with a theoretical 3 db. IMHO it's not worth $600 for another 3db, but YMMV

Check out the end of this article discussing multiple subs. In that particular room, certain frequencies were boosted more then 6db even with the subs spread apart. The output increase from multiple subs is very room and location dependent.

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=content&id=80

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post #22 of 23 Old 03-13-2012, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Co-locating is not possible, they would be placed on either side of my entertainent center. One firing into a corner and the other firing into open space. ~5 cu ft of space on either side for dual subs.
I wish I understood how to measure this in-roon stuff, other than spl. That article makes sense as far as placement and room gain, but some was still beyond my knowledge base.

I don't want to spend more to get ~3dB that is for sure, if I am ramping up I want at least a 5-8dB in-room gain
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post #23 of 23 Old 03-13-2012, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

Co-locating is not possible, they would be placed on either side of my entertainent center. One firing into a corner and the other firing into open space. ~5 cu ft of space on either side for dual subs.
I wish I understood how to measure this in-roon stuff, other than spl. That article makes sense as far as placement and room gain, but some was still beyond my knowledge base.

I don't want to spend more to get ~3dB that is for sure, if I am ramping up I want at least a 5-8dB in-room gain

The Ultra 13 would give you 7db almost across the board but that would be 2grand minus your trade-in or trade up so to speak.
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