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post #91 of 134 Old 06-11-2012, 07:42 PM
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Holy ****...

And my wife was kinda pissed about me getting 2x HSU 15h's..... LOL


Ray

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post #92 of 134 Old 06-11-2012, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

I just watched Underworld Awakenings and Ghost Protocol this past weekend...there were a number of times where I had to pause it to make sure the room and rest of the house was ok!
These FTWs are just sick. The biggest difference between this system and my eDs is the SQ! I never would have thought it would be such a difference given the flat response I had with my eD's, but these are truly much more detailed. The biggest difference is how tight these are! As I said before, the tight/slam in the chest is significantly better that my eD setup. These really sound detailed and articulate when you need them, and then can also belt out the ULF.
I was expecting higher infrasonics (which I got), but was not expecting the SQ and tactile 'midbass' difference. Very impressed. smile.gif

I feel the same way and know EXACTLY what you mean bro! wink.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #93 of 134 Old 06-12-2012, 07:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raehza View Post

Holy ****...
And my wife was kinda pissed about me getting 2x HSU 15h's..... LOL
Ray

LOL! More frame of reference:

400

And now compare the FTW21 to the A7S-450 and the VTF above!

450

These are definitely an odd (huge) duck when it comes to sealed enclosures. HUGE performance though! biggrin.gif
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post #94 of 134 Old 06-12-2012, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

LOL! More frame of reference:
400
And now compare the FTW21 to the A7S-450 and the VTF above!
450
These are definitely an odd (huge) duck when it comes to sealed enclosures. HUGE performance though! biggrin.gif


Yea dude, what gets me more than the size of the enclosure, is the Driver.

I have a PB12-NSD that I bought about 4 months ago, but am selling now since I moved my HT into my very large basement. So I had to buy more powerful Subs and multiple ones.

When I received the HSUs and put them next to the PB12, the PB12 looked so small. But what really made the HSU look HUGE was the 15 inch driver vs 12 inch. They look menacingly big.

But you have a 21 inch, that must look ****-in-your-pants scary.....

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post #95 of 134 Old 06-13-2012, 07:35 AM
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First impressions are in! I have to take pics and graphs and start a new thread. Let's just say these little 13's(12's) have much more low end than ever before!

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post #96 of 134 Old 06-13-2012, 04:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

First impressions are in! I have to take pics and graphs and start a new thread. Let's just say these little 13's(12's) have much more low end than ever before!

Looking forward to hearing more!! biggrin.gif
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post #97 of 134 Old 06-13-2012, 06:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raehza View Post

Yea dude, what gets me more than the size of the enclosure, is the Driver.
I have a PB12-NSD that I bought about 4 months ago, but am selling now since I moved my HT into my very large basement. So I had to buy more powerful Subs and multiple ones.
When I received the HSUs and put them next to the PB12, the PB12 looked so small. But what really made the HSU look HUGE was the 15 inch driver vs 12 inch. They look menacingly big.
But you have a 21 inch, that must look ****-in-your-pants scary.....
Ray

Yup...it truly is. When I first pulled it off the pallet and saw the driver, my jaw dropped. Still can't believe how massive this driver is! eek.gif
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post #98 of 134 Old 06-18-2012, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

The cabinet is definitely big...but that damn 21in driver is ridiculous! Probably not a good thing (and likely because I still have the subs on furniture movers), but when I play the Black Hawk Down scene when it hits those 7hz notes, the driver excursion is insane and it actually rocks the entire 250lb cabinet! I listen to that scene at reference...and the FTW21 is hardly moving, and then all of a sudden it gets massive excursion for a few seconds, and then goes back to hardly moving. Pretty cool to see. I'll try and capture it on video...

I stopped over at dom's house this weekend for a proper demo of his latest system. On the 30 minute ride over to his house, I smiled to myself thinking about his first sub the A2-300 and his favorite demo scene from Hulk...I wondered if even he knew where his sub journey was heading after the A2-300 made a bad noise during a demanding scene from the movie. The journey is where all the fun is and the destination can have a sense of sadness that the journey is over...

The sub destination that dom has arrived at is truly the best his system has ever sounded and is the best I have ever heard since starting this hobby in 1990. The BHD scene quoted above is the first time that I have felt the impact of the 7Hz note. On top of that, the rest of the sound field was equally as impressive with a constant slam to the chest. On all of the demos, the weight in the room was so impressive, the slam in the chest, the energy in the sofa and the ease at which his system reproduced all of it at reference level.....in a word - STUNNING.

Every demo scene was new to me....mind you; I have listened to some of these scenes at least 100 times over the years in my room and his. All of the usual words come to mind - clean, effortless, dynamic, impactful.....WOTW is as immersive as I have ever heard it and years later is still the king of demos (IMHO) on a system like this. Sound Quality is off the charts, I finally have an appreciation of it after this demo. My good friend, you should be very, very proud in what you have created. A TOTAL masterpiece. Your sub journey might be over....it certainly is over for the short term...I can't imagine another system sounding "better". I guess another system can sound louder but your space can't be "improved".

If you are within driving distance to dom, please do yourself a favor and request a demo. I am very excited at the moment as my sub journey is cranking back up again....dom has showed me what is possible and I can't wait to do the same upgrade in my system!
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post #99 of 134 Old 06-18-2012, 11:21 AM
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Great write up. When I picked up his old A7s-450's he gave me a short demo, it was awesome!!
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post #100 of 134 Old 06-18-2012, 05:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laugsbach View Post

I stopped over at dom's house this weekend for a proper demo of his latest system. On the 30 minute ride over to his house, I smiled to myself thinking about his first sub the A2-300 and his favorite demo scene from Hulk...I wondered if even he knew where his sub journey was heading after the A2-300 made a bad noise during a demanding scene from the movie. The journey is where all the fun is and the destination can have a sense of sadness that the journey is over...
The sub destination that dom has arrived at is truly the best his system has ever sounded and is the best I have ever heard since starting this hobby in 1990. The BHD scene quoted above is the first time that I have felt the impact of the 7Hz note. On top of that, the rest of the sound field was equally as impressive with a constant slam to the chest. On all of the demos, the weight in the room was so impressive, the slam in the chest, the energy in the sofa and the ease at which his system reproduced all of it at reference level.....in a word - STUNNING.
Every demo scene was new to me....mind you; I have listened to some of these scenes at least 100 times over the years in my room and his. All of the usual words come to mind - clean, effortless, dynamic, impactful.....WOTW is as immersive as I have ever heard it and years later is still the king of demos (IMHO) on a system like this. Sound Quality is off the charts, I finally have an appreciation of it after this demo. My good friend, you should be very, very proud in what you have created. A TOTAL masterpiece. Your sub journey might be over....it certainly is over for the short term...I can't imagine another system sounding "better". I guess another system can sound louder but your space can't be "improved".
If you are within driving distance to dom, please do yourself a favor and request a demo.
Wow, laugsbach. I'm going to double the amount I originally said I'd pay you for that writeup! wink.gif

Seriously, very kind sir. Those are some big compliments, especially coming from you! I'm glad you liked it and could tell the huge difference like I could. I expected more low stuff, but NEVER expected the SQ, tightness, and huge kick in the chest effect!
Quote:
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I am very excited at the moment as my sub journey is cranking back up again....dom has showed me what is possible and I can't wait to do the same upgrade in my system!

I remember when I had a newly purchased, single A7S-450, no projector, white walls, and computer speakers for surrounds; I was very content and happy...until I visited your HT!

Here we are, two years later...well guess what, it's payback time my friend. biggrin.gifwink.gif
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post #101 of 134 Old 06-18-2012, 06:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by laugsbach View Post

Your sub journey might be over....

Funny you should say that...someone PM'd me about my subs, and then said "aren't you amp limited"? I then thought...if I upgraded to a clone amp, I could potentially get an additional 3db per sub for a total of 6db more! eek.gifeek.gif
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it certainly is over for the short term..

Well, I was content for about 3 weeks. wink.gif
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post #102 of 134 Old 06-18-2012, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Funny you should say that...someone PM'd me about my subs, and then said "aren't you amp limited"? I then thought...if I upgraded to a clone amp, I could potentially get an additional 3db per sub for a total of 6db more! eek.gifeek.gif
Well, I was content for about 3 weeks. wink.gif

Haha, I'd be that someone!! smile.gif

Thanks for the details in your PM, one more question for you, ok 2 questions. The kick in the chest, is that coming from the 21's? You said the couch movement is mostly from the near field outlaws right?

With my setup I got more couch shake with the ported Captivators but more chest kick with the Submersives. Dom, I know you said I got you thinking about upgrading your amp, but you got me thinking too!! Part of me just wants the BA look of having drivers that damn big in my room. biggrin.gif
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post #103 of 134 Old 06-18-2012, 10:51 PM
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Dom, let me tell ya first hand that 6 extra db's of headroom made a GIGANTIC difference in my room. Just saying......... biggrin.gif
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post #104 of 134 Old 06-19-2012, 04:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Haha, I'd be that someone!! smile.gif
Thanks for the details in your PM, one more question for you, ok 2 questions. The kick in the chest, is that coming from the 21's? You said the couch movement is mostly from the near field outlaws right?
With my setup I got more couch shake with the ported Captivators but more chest kick with the Submersives. Dom, I know you said I got you thinking about upgrading your amp, but you got me thinking too!! Part of me just wants the BA look of having drivers that damn big in my room. biggrin.gif

That's right. The kick in the chest is all from the FTWs. It's interesting the different tactile feelings you get in my room. In my tactile feeling thread, I talk about the kick in the chest sensation as well as the couch shaking sensation and how they are really two different things. laugsbach and I during I believe the BHD scene, stood up so we would be disconnected from the couch shaking....WOW! We were near the middle of the room, and it felt like our chests were taking a beating with those helicopter blades. I'm on concrete, so nothing else was causing us to shake except the bass waves! Very cool.

Have eD build a cabinet that houses 2 FTWs, and then buy a second....4 FTWs in 2 cabinets would be downright scary...eek.gif
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post #105 of 134 Old 06-19-2012, 04:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

Dom, let me tell ya first hand that 6 extra db's of headroom made a GIGANTIC difference in my room. Just saying......... biggrin.gif

Tell me more...why was it gigantic? Were you happy with the output before you got the additional headroom?

Wait a sec...don't tell me more, I'm happy for right now! wink.gif
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post #106 of 134 Old 06-19-2012, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Tell me more...why was it gigantic? Were you happy with the output before you got the additional headroom?
Wait a sec...don't tell me more, I'm happy for right now! wink.gif

I was pretty happy with the headroom I had before the additional woofage. I even tried "simulating" the upcoming power increase by bumping up by subs 6db's. Even though the subs still pounded out the LFE, it just wasnt the same to when I finally got the next pair going. Now it just hits you so hard and so effortless, it's really on another level. smile.gif
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post #107 of 134 Old 06-20-2012, 07:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

I was pretty happy with the headroom I had before the additional woofage. I even tried "simulating" the upcoming power increase by bumping up by subs 6db's. Even though the subs still pounded out the LFE, it just wasnt the same to when I finally got the next pair going. Now it just hits you so hard and so effortless, it's really on another level. smile.gif
So did you find when you listened at reference that peaks were louder? IOW, same sub level as before, but let's say you hit peaks of 118 with two, but now you hit peaks of 122 with the extra woofage? So basically, you were compressing some before, but the extra headroom allowed you to peak higher but at the same sub level?
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post #108 of 134 Old 06-21-2012, 07:00 AM
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That is just it, all you have to do to find out if you need more headroom is turn the volume up. If what you have is plenty than leave it alone. What I mean is turn the gain up 3 dBs and see if it goes up 3 dBs and if so you are not compressing yet so try another 3 dBs and do it again. If it is loud enough for you at 6 dBs louder and it did not compress then you do not need more subs as turning the gain up 6 dBs does the same thing. However, if it compresses than distortion will rise and more subs would be needed. Of course this is all at crazy levels so it is up to you. I watched a demo of Tron last night and my chairs felt like they were literally expanding and closing which never happened before.

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post #109 of 134 Old 07-10-2012, 06:52 PM - Thread Starter
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So I played the Hulk scene where he hits abomination...I hear that's the one of the most, if not the most demanding ULF scenes in recorded movies.

 

I'm running my subs +7 hot.

 

At -6 main volume, I hit 117db. At -3 MV I hit 121db, and at -0 MV I hit 122db. These are all Max measurements on the omnimic.

 

So it looks like I'm compressing around the -2 main volume for that scene since I'm not gaining the equivalent loudness.

 

Here's my latest FR response:

 

Flat to 5hz FTW21

 

Kinda lumpy between 10 and 25hz...but I don't want to mess with it because it sounds amazing to me. I just can't say enough about how detailed these FTWs are...crazy. Also, the weight of the room is so much more than it was...

 

Funny to see my 5hz output is louder than my 100hz. eek.gif

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post #110 of 134 Old 07-11-2012, 09:34 AM
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So the question is you have enough sub for reference levels. Do you need more subs for higher than 122 dBs of bass which is over reference? Did you use any low end boost? Is this using Audyssey? Have you run sine wave sweeps to see where it compresses at 5hz-20hz? Usually running movies you will run into compression at the higher frequencies because this is where more info is? I have not scene a movie with higher recorded 10hz bass than TIH.

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post #111 of 134 Old 07-11-2012, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Kinda lumpy between 10 and 25hz...

+/-2dB from 9Hz to 80Hz is lumpy? rolleyes.gif

Dom, thanks for the laugh my friend...smile.gif I wouldn't touch your system at this point.
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post #112 of 134 Old 07-11-2012, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Have you run sine wave sweeps to see where it compresses at 5hz-20hz?

Dom hasn't....It is only a matter of time MK...smile.gif

I sure hope Mrs Dom is out of the house during this test...
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post #113 of 134 Old 07-11-2012, 06:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

So the question is you have enough sub for reference levels. Do you need more subs for higher than 122 dBs of bass which is over reference? Did you use any low end boost? Is this using Audyssey? Have you run sine wave sweeps to see where it compresses at 5hz-20hz? Usually running movies you will run into compression at the higher frequencies because this is where more info is? I have not scene a movie with higher recorded 10hz bass than TIH.

I do use boost. Between Audyssey and my manual tweaking with the eQ.2, I start boosting at 19hz. At 12hz I'm boosting by +7db, at 10hz I'm at +8db, and at 5hz I'm at +9db.

 

I have not run sweeps yet, but I have recorded my output by using omnimic during that scene. I placed the mic at my LP, played the Hulk scene, and watched the output I was producing as the scene played. I played it at reference, and omnimic showed that my 5hz output was stronger than all other frequencies in that scene for a good 10-15 seconds. IIRC, OM was showing 120db (I assume a 'peak' reading) at 10hz and around 115db at 5hz during that scene.

 

Click here > http://www.avsforum.com/t/1400142/official-elemental-designs-custom-subwoofer-thread/60#post_22095904 and fast forward to 1:22.

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post #114 of 134 Old 07-11-2012, 07:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laugsbach View Post


+/-2dB from 9Hz to 80Hz is lumpy? rolleyes.gif
Dom, thanks for the laugh my friend...smile.gif I wouldn't touch your system at this point.

LOL, thanks laugsbach! Looking forward to you coming over tomorrow night! Still can't believe how realistic your transducers were the other night!

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post #115 of 134 Old 07-11-2012, 09:16 PM
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Then you answered your own question. You are compressing but over reference, you played a 5hz scene at 115 dBs so you have every movie covered. Extra subs not needed! Unless you want to play peg the meter game. BTW, how did you measure this 5hz stuff? I want to do this. I usually will run a 120 dB sine wave sweep and if it can do that then any movie is a piece of cake.

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post #116 of 134 Old 07-13-2012, 05:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Then you answered your own question. You are compressing but over reference, you played a 5hz scene at 115 dBs so you have every movie covered. Extra subs not needed! Unless you want to play peg the meter game. BTW, how did you measure this 5hz stuff? I want to do this. I usually will run a 120 dB sine wave sweep and if it can do that then any movie is a piece of cake.

All I did was use the Spectrograph tab of the Omnimic, and played that Hulk scene. The Omnimic then recorded the frequencies and output during that Hulk scene as I showed in the video. There just happened to be a lot of 5hz content. smile.gif

 

Do you have an omnimic?

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post #117 of 134 Old 07-14-2012, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
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Do you have an omnimic?

MK did have one at one point but he no longer has it...
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post #118 of 134 Old 07-14-2012, 05:54 PM
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I still have it but it is boxed up as I donated it. I actually forgot about so I need to get this out!

NanoAvr to Outlaw 975
amps-5 Adcom GFA-555's mono's, Sanway FP14K
5 JBL 2447 CD, 5 2352 horns, 3 15 inch 2035 for fronts, 2 15 inch 2032 for surrounds
subs-IB SI 18ht x12
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post #119 of 134 Old 08-15-2012, 07:12 PM
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dominguez1,

I've just discovered this thread and am super excited reading about the FTW21's.
You've convinced me of getting them.
I'm more convinced that I should buy 2 of these babies!!!

I have 4x MFW15's right now (1 per corner) and am thinking of putting all 4 MFW15's up front and putting the 2 FTW21's in the back.

I have a clone 10000Q to power them up.

Would this be a major upgrade to my sound right now?
thanks for you thoughts and thanks for all the posts you've put...It has been very useful for me.

My Build Thread
Equipment Speakers:
3x 1099's for LCR duty
4x Fusion 8's for surround duty
8x subs: 4x FTW21's and 4x SI18's
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post #120 of 134 Old 08-16-2012, 05:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

dominguez1,
I've just discovered this thread and am super excited reading about the FTW21's.
You've convinced me of getting them.
I'm more convinced that I should buy 2 of these babies!!!
I have 4x MFW15's right now (1 per corner) and am thinking of putting all 4 MFW15's up front and putting the 2 FTW21's in the back.
I have a clone 10000Q to power them up.
Would this be a major upgrade to my sound right now?
thanks for you thoughts and thanks for all the posts you've put...It has been very useful for me.

 

Unfortunately, I don't have any experience with the MFW15s and don't know that much about them. I believe they are ported? I remember one AVS member who upgraded from the MFW15 to the eD A7S-450, and seemed to think it was a significant upgrade. If that were to be the case in your room (I used to own the eD A7s-450), you are in for a huge upgrade! I believe 1 FTW21 is almost 3 times the displacement of 1 a7s! From a SQ perspective, it's not even a battle. The FTW21s have so much more impact and ULF capability. I didn't think I could improve much over my eD system. I was flat to 10hz with them....when I finally dialed my FTW21 system together, I was shocked at the difference! Very happy with them... How big is your room? Is it sealed? I would put the FTWs in the locations of your room that get you the flattest response and deepest extension. I would then place the MFWs nearfield and run them around 3db lower (in total) relative to the FTWs. This way your FTWs are doing most of the work and your MFWs can provide you the tactile feel. Do you have an external EQ? You're likely going to need one (with variable phase adjustment) in order to get ported and sealed to play nice together. You'll also need some measurement gear (REW or Omnimic) to be able to tell what your FR is doing. Are you building the box yourself?
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