Paradigm Signature Sub 2 review at AH - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 70 Old 04-18-2012, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Ok, thanks. I will trust your expertise that the 2db "loss" is within a db of reality.

So then, it's reasonable to concur that- just as far a 20hz tone is concerned, for simplicities sale- that the Sub 2 and 5400 100L (which both measured ~106 at 20hz, GP) would be within couple dbs of one another, in-room, @ 20hz?

James

Sealed subs are very simple...How much low bass SPL is dependent on the swept volume of air. If you calculate the volume of air displaced by each system (driver cone area x length of stroke) at full tilt using some educated guesses where needed, you can make some general comparisons.
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post #62 of 70 Old 04-19-2012, 03:50 AM
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Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

^^
If I had the funds to buy a Sub 2 I wouldn't worry about reliability. According to Josh the Sub 2 is perhaps the most overbuilt sub he has ever seen.

The limiting circuitry worked as designed. When pushed really hard the limiting circuitry shut the amp down for a couple minutes.

It's not like there are really all that many moving parts. 6 highly overbuilt drivers cared for by a very effective limiter.

Also projecting Ferrari like reliability has no basis in fact. Despite pushing the Sub 2 to its (considerable) limits, it came through with flying colors. I would take the build quality of the Sub 2 over any Internet Direct sub(s) in a heartbeat.

That said, the Sub 2 doesn't have a perfect operating history. If you check the owners' thread there have been isolated reports of problems which required dealer service - just like for other subs, ID or not.
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post #63 of 70 Old 04-19-2012, 04:33 AM - Thread Starter
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post #64 of 70 Old 04-19-2012, 05:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Surprisingly well behaved discussion guys.

A couple of things about the Sub 2 that have sort of been pointed out already. It is smaller than you would think. I believe it is actually slightly smaller in total external volume than a PB13-Ultra and similar in size to most sealed 18's such as the DD18+. Perhaps slightly larger. It is easy to get huge numbers out of a refrigerator sized cab. It's much more difficult to get big output out of a small size. Comparing sealed systems to vented ones right near their tuning always heavily favors the ported system since that is the area of the ported systems greatest strength. Comparing output or distortion at one small frequency band doesn't mean a whole lot and won't give an impression of how the subwoofer will do with wide bandwidth effects and bass reproduction over the total bandwidth. The Sub 2 has powerful performance over the entire 10-125Hz bandwidth not specifically at any single point. Sealed systems do not put up huge output numbers at any specific frequency range generally. Even with the massive amplifier in this subwoofer the system is amplifier limited. The drivers cannot be overdriven. That being the case you cannot make the Sub 2 sound bad. It never made any noise of distress even when driven really hard. A lot of subwoofers are audibly distressed and not sounding so hot at full output. This can't be seen in the output charts and to some extent may not even be evident in the distortion measurements as it actually takes quite a bit of deep bass distortion for it to be obvious. Basically up to the point that the amplifier limits the system it still sounds great. Also consider that 10" drivers especially those with surrounds this large have a relatively small amount of cone area. 300cm^2 would be a good rough estimate. An 18" driver has almost 1200cm^2 which gives it the SD of about 3.5 to 4 10" drivers so an 18" capable of 30mm xmax can theoretically displace as much air as 4 25mm xmax 10's. Each doubling of air displaced results in only a 6dB increase in output. The output measured is well in line with what would be expected from 6 long throw 10" drivers in a small sealed enclosure.

As far as the opposed driver compensation is concerned I do not claimed that the 10m measurement allows full integration of the output and that the resultant file is "perfect", far from it, but I am confident that it is well within 1dB. An inconsequential amount of error at least to my way of thinking.

Also another thing about the Sub 2 is that it just has that something about it. Sure it's not the loudest sub ever, but it does factor into the top rung of dB per cubic inch of enclosure rankings. You guys might not ever consider purchasing one, but I would be very surprised if anyone had a chance to use one or 2 in their system and was disappointed in anyway. In a room it is quite powerful, sounds great, it looks amazing and is just plainly put a very cool piece of gear.

Excellent post as usual Ricci. The other thing to factor in with these discussions is that the Sub2 was simply not built for the DIY crowd, or, FTM, the AVS crowd looking for the best $ to performance ratio.

When my brother was considering one, I told him that I was fairly sure dual SubM's would outperform it for slightly more than half the cost (shipped). Spoke with Nathan at FW about potentially ordering 2 18.0's with the LMS or his new driver, etc.

At the end of the day he didn't care about cost (must be nice ), he just wanted to own a "$9k" subwoofer that was an incredible performer. He also didn't want to deal with an ID brand as this way he could deal with his local dealer and Paradigm directly (when you purchase these subs you can pretty much speak directly with the engineers at P'Digm when you have questions), have them come and unbox the sub, set it up, etc. Plus, when people come over they know what "Paradigm" is. Yes, he's a huge brand whore.

Having spent some time with it, it's just an awesome piece. As Ricci says, you can't make the thing make a bad noise. I'm fairly certain I may have had it several db hot (think my mic was on the fritz that day), but it simply didn't complain. It was downright frightening at times in his 4,000 cubic foot family room/kitchen combo that opened up to the rest of his main floor.

The quality of the fit and finish, right down to the amazing grills ...



... was simply stunning.

Plus, it's really not that large. It looks much smaller than my PB13-Ultra for instance. Also has that amazing plate amp ...



... name another available plate amp that matches this in power without fans, or potential issues with using proamps (dealing with pro gear, hum, fan noise, gain structure, external EQ devices, etc).

Somewhat reminds me of the old "F113 vs PB13" arguments, that I myself used to get into. I.e., the F113 was I believe double the cost of the PB13 way back when and we all argued it was ridiculous to buy it over the PB13. But when I finally had the F113 in my room and another to compare it, sure the PB13 IMO still outperformed it. But staring at the size of the box and hearing/feeling what it could put out at the time gave me a huge appreciation for what it could do.

Clearly for the $6/7k you'd spend on this sub post discount, you could get a lot more in terms of db/$$$ ratio. But if money isn't much of an object, the Sub2 is an awesome sub to experience.


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post #65 of 70 Old 04-19-2012, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Sealed subs are very simple...How much low bass SPL is dependent on the swept volume of air. If you calculate the volume of air displaced by each system (driver cone area x length of stroke) at full tilt using some educated guesses where needed, you can make some general comparisons.

So is that a "yes" to my question of: a single driver sub and 6 driver sub (on 3 sides) that measure identically at 20hz outdoors will produce similar results (maybe +2dbs in this case for the Sub2), at 20hz, in-room?

I'm not trying to be the turd in the punchbowl, or annoying...I'm trying to learn.

I've read so much about boundary gain...especially regarding subwoofers: pehaps it was bad info or my understanding of it is flawed. But that, coupled with my own experience with my passive radiator Trinity has me thinking that when I plop the Sub2 down in my usual front right corner of my room it will benefit much more from the 2 near-field walls and ceiling than the single-driver 5400 cube.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Happy to learn why.


James

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Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #66 of 70 Old 04-19-2012, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

So is that a "yes" to my question of: a single driver sub and 6 driver sub (on 3 sides) that measure identically at 20hz outdoors will produce similar results (maybe +2dbs in this case for the Sub2), at 20hz, in-room?

I've read so much about boundary gain...especially regarding subwoofers: pehaps it was bad info or my understanding of it is flawed. But that, coupled with my own experience with my passive radiator Trinity has me thinking that when I plop the Sub2 down in my usual front right corner of my room it will benefit much more from the 2 near-field walls and ceiling than the single-driver 5400 cube.

James

I doubt that the Trinity when it was measured had any sort of compensation for the fact that it does fire from multiple sides so yes it's outdoor output would be understated.

The sub with multiple radiation points and the single driver sub will measure similarily indoors as outdoors so long as 1. both are placed optimally in the same position AND 2. The multiple faced subwoofer is compensated for outside. If it is not it will have seemingly lower output outdoors at the single microphone measurement position. In doors the walls and boundaries confine the radiation and reflect it back.
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post #67 of 70 Old 04-19-2012, 08:31 AM
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Ok.

SO:

If the Sub2 measures 106dbs at 20hz outdoors, GP, we estimate it's "really" about 108dbs due to the nature of its multi-sided radiation.

Similarly: if the 5400 in a 100L cube measures 106dbs at 20hz outside we (obviously) accept that measurement to be true due to the nature of its single driver.

Fine. So then when I put either in my room (specifically, in my front right corner, where I've found 5 other subs to perform their best) the output difference at 2 meters @ 20hz will be only ~2dbs. Basically: either sub will benefit (from an SPL standpoint anyway) equally from boundary/room gain. Correct?

If so, then my assumption that the nearby walls would add additional db's (in excess of course of the 2dbs we adjusted outdoors) to the Sub2 is incorrect and I can move on with life.

thanks,
James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #68 of 70 Old 04-19-2012, 10:02 AM
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I love this sub. Everything about it screams high quality.
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post #69 of 70 Old 04-19-2012, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Ok.

SO:

If the Sub2 measures 106dbs at 20hz outdoors, GP, we estimate it's "really" about 108dbs due to the nature of its multi-sided radiation.

James

For the AH results in the review this has already been factored into the Sub 2measurements. So the answer is no. You would not add any further correction.
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post #70 of 70 Old 04-19-2012, 01:23 PM
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I probably started my thoughts on Josh's review of SVS's Peerless XXLS-based sub the same way, when I read Josh's reviews, but rarely do I find the device under test is as well executed as Josh's review of it was executed. This sub is a happy exception.

I've also been intrigued by the tri-firing configuration since hearing a quad of Martin Logan triple-10's (Descent? Depth? Some D-word) in a Welti/Devantier configuration several years ago. While that system seemed to lack some output given the cone area (W/D configurations do give up output for smoothness, which is one reason I prefer Geddes-style setups) the configuration seemed to be as good as a dual-opposed at canceling vibration.

Everybody seems to be (wrongly, I think) focused on that 20Hz dB number. Yes, it's exemplary for a subwoofer of this size. However, that's less interesting to me than its wide bandwidth. Many supersubs seem to be designed merely to pump air. This one gives quite a lot of flexibility up top. I think Josh's point that it's usable to ~180Hz (given the lift likely caused by the amp's brick wall filter above that point) is a very good one. He's tested many lesser subs with markedly inferior bandwidth. And the low-end F3 is very nice for a sealed box as well.

One small comment, but on the PBK software one can adjust the axes to suit one's desires. It's a bit cumbersome to do, and the motion is not terribly intuitive to this Mac user, but it's possible. (I am assuming here that "PBK" is what it looks like basked on the screen shots, Anthem's ARC focused on a subwoofer.)

Yeah, it's expensive. So what? It's compact, powerful, quiet, well-constructed and incorporates a top-tier automated FR correction routine. It also strikes me that one could put together a basically flawless-in-performance Geddes-style multisub system with one of these in a front corner, the 6x8" variant far away from that, and one of Paradigm's "designer" subs far away from both and up high. For people who like to stick to the same brand (or aesthetic) at least.

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