Recommendations for a 'musical' sub for $450-650? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 48 Old 05-02-2012, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

"The sub 30Hz realm is very much sound effects territory - explosions, thunder, et al. There is very little content in music below 30Hz so club systems tend to cut off at this point if not a bit higher, whilst live music systems as seen at major festivals / stadiums tend to cut off at 35Hz (which makes the systems a bit more efficient so you need less gear to reach a given SPL than with a system with a 30Hz cut-off)" [Barefaced bass http://barefacedbass.com/technical-i...Huge-lows.htm]

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post #32 of 48 Old 05-03-2012, 03:24 AM
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It's true there is not much content on recordings below 30 hz, or anywhere in the low 30s. And even when instruments produce stuff that low, often times recording engineers will filter that stuff out or substantially reduce it. Unless you are really into pipe organ recordings, I would just forget that stuff. Even heavy-duty dubstep or raggea will seldom dip that low. If you don't believe me, play back a 35 hz sine wave, and ask yourself how often you hear a note like that in any music. If you are interested in sound lower than that, no sealed sub in that budget range is going to do justice to that, you will need a ported sub.
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post #33 of 48 Old 05-03-2012, 06:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the replies.

It looks like the best bet for my needs is either the X-Ref 12 or the SVS.

I'm intrigued by the Rumba and RSL, but I'd have to hear more about them to consider them seriously.

I've been looking at used subs on Audiogon, but everything is either of low quality or way too expensive.

I'm not in a hurry to make a purchase (I still have to pay for my Sierra-1's!), so any other input would be appreciated while I think things over.
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post #34 of 48 Old 05-03-2012, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

However with X-Ref 10 sound quality won't be compromised. Very little content in music below 30hz. I think the OP was asking for a musical sub.

Your comment like this is boring and counter-intuitive. Can you ask the eletronics designers of Emotiva to explain why their amps has a frequency response of -3db at 5hz and when it comes to subwoofer, 30hz is enough? If they had designed the -3db at 30hz on their amp as well, they can save a few bucks using a smaller DC coupling capacitor.
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post #35 of 48 Old 05-03-2012, 09:12 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

Your comment like this is boring and counter-intuitive. Can you ask the eletronics designers of Emotiva to explain why their amps has a frequency response of -3db at 5hz and when it comes to subwoofer, 30hz is enough? If they had designed the -3db at 30hz on their amp as well, they can save a few bucks using a smaller DC coupling capacitor.

I think the matter has been settled. It isn't about me anyway, the X-Ref 10 or 12 was a recommendation by me to the OP, who by the way, is in the market for a small musical sub. In my opinion, based what the OP discribed, the X-Ref 10 or 12 fits what he's looking for, its an excellent small musical subwoofer, with clean, tight, punchy bass.

As for Emotiva engineering decisions, you should ask them about that. As a customer, I only care about how it sounds/peforms in my room and in my system. Around here we constantly read about people buying subs (based on measurements) and then returning the sub or selling it because they are not happy with the way it sounds in their room and system.
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post #36 of 48 Old 05-03-2012, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theaetetus View Post

Thanks for all the replies.

It looks like the best bet for my needs is either the X-Ref 12 or the SVS.

I'm intrigued by the Rumba and RSL, but I'd have to hear more about them to consider them seriously.

I've been looking at used subs on Audiogon, but everything is either of low quality or way too expensive.

I'm not in a hurry to make a purchase (I still have to pay for my Sierra-1's!), so any other input would be appreciated while I think things over.

RSL has free shipping both ways if you're not satisfied. Basically nothing to lose but a little time.

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post #37 of 48 Old 05-03-2012, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

I think the matter has been settled. It isn't about me anyway, the X-Ref 10 or 12 was a recommendation by me to the OP, who by the way, is in the market for a small musical sub. In my opinion, based what the OP discribed, the X-Ref 10 or 12 fits what he's looking for, its an excellent small musical subwoofer, with clean, tight, punchy bass.

Well, it's not settled in that the only recommendation in this thread for the X-Ref 12 is coming from you. In fact, if the OP will search AVS, he'll find tons of threads where the large majority of recommendations for the X-Ref sub series are coming from you, often in a haranguing style that would discourage any reasonable person from granting you credibility, not to mention your fringe position diatribes on <30hz content. Just because you insist on being the loudest and most zealous person in the room, doesn't make the X-Ref a great choice. If it's as good as you think it is, you wouln't need to argue as much or in the manner that you do.

To the OP: If it were me, I would go with the SVS SB12-NSD, the Rumba that Jim recently evaluated (nice review!), or even the NHT B-12d (not proven, but historically NHT has a pretty good reputation).

However, I would lean heavily toward the SVS because it's well proven. Tons of people here on AVS with experience with it. And one major point in favor of SVS Sound as a company is a long track record of fantastic customer support and service. There is also a very active community of SVS sub owners on this forum who will help out with configuration questions and how to place the sub in your room, and Ed Mullen, owner of SVS Sound, often joins in to help. Definitely a big perk.

Incidentally, there is no X-Ref community here on AVS, unless you count a community of one who chases away all other X-Ref owners. So there's no support here for how best to integrate that particular sub with your system.

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post #38 of 48 Old 05-03-2012, 12:56 PM
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The SVS SB12-NSD in piano black would be my first choice if size/aesthetics is of primary concern.

The Epik Legend should produce equally tight bass with significantly more output (and therefore lower distortion at higher spl) but is a bit larger.
The Rythmik FV12 is only slightly larger than the Legend and will have more deep bass output than the SB12-NSD but it's a toss up with the Legend. It will not likely reproduce music as well as the other two. It also drops off above 90 hz or so. If you're going with Rythmik I recommend a sealed one (based on the thread title) like the F12G or up the budget to an F15.
Good luck.
Tim
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post #39 of 48 Old 05-03-2012, 02:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Well, it's not settled in that the only recommendation in this thread for the X-Ref 12 is coming from you. In fact, if the OP will search AVS, he'll find tons of threads where the large majority of recommendations for the X-Ref sub series are coming from you, often in a haranguing style that would discourage any reasonable person from granting you credibility, not to mention your fringe position diatribes on <30hz content. Just because you insist on being the loudest and most zealous person in the room, doesn't make the X-Ref a great choice. If it's as good as you think it is, you wouln't need to argue as much or in the manner that you do.

To the OP: If it were me, I would go with the SVS SB12-NSD, the Rumba that Jim recently evaluated (nice review!), or even the NHT B-12d (not proven, but historically NHT has a pretty good reputation).

However, I would lean heavily toward the SVS because it's well proven. Tons of people here on AVS with experience with it. And one major point in favor of SVS Sound as a company is a long track record of fantastic customer support and service. There is also a very active community of SVS sub owners on this forum who will help out with configuration questions and how to place the sub in your room, and Ed Mullen, owner of SVS Sound, often joins in to help. Definitely a big perk.

Incidentally, there is no X-Ref community here on AVS, unless you count a community of one who chases away all other X-Ref owners. So there's no support here for how best to integrate that particular sub with your system.

Let me quote the OP: "It looks like the best bet for my needs is either the X-Ref 12 or the SVS"

I think the matter has been settled. As far SVS is concerned, I agree with you about their customer service.

I'm not telling him not purchase a SB12. I just gave my recommendation since the OP said he looking for a small musical sub. I don't have a SB12, I have an X-Ref 12 so naturally I'm going to recommend it because I have first hand expirence with it. That doesn't mean that the SB12 isn't a good sub, I just can't speak from first hand expirence like someone that owns that sub.

As far as integrating the X-Ref 12 into his system, man this sub is pretty much plug n play, its a very easy thing to do. If you owned one you would know that. BTW, ask anyone that owns any of Emotive products about their customer service, from almost all accounts its top rate. If you need any set up help you could call Emotiva and they will help you. They are polite and knowledeable about their products.

People with first hand expirence with the X-Ref 10 or 12 (not the AVS groupies) usually make the following observations about this subs:

"I don't think it would be much use to try to describe the plot of Transformers: Dark of the Moon. The movie lost any sense of believability with the opening shot of Shia LaBeouf waking up next to a beautiful supermodel. But it did earn SECRETS' 2011 Bad Ass Movie Audio award, earned in large part by the carnage inflicted on downtown Chicago. Here, the X-Ref 12 produced taut, clean bass without boominess or bloat. The Emotiva didn't create subterranean rumbling or wall-shaking bass, but you shouldn't expect that from a small, sealed-box design.

What you should expect is crisp, accurate response with music, and that was my experience with the X-Ref 12. Steely Dan's Two Against Nature isn't on my list of top five Steely Dan albums, but the incredible sound quality keeps me coming back to it. Jack of Speed is anchored by that trademark syncopated backbeat familiar to so many Dan songs, with the bass guitar staying deep in the pocket. The Emotiva brought a nice, authoritative snap to the beater on the kick drum, and accurately recreated the bass tones on the track."
[Secrets of Home theater and Hi-Fi]

Note the words "accurate" , "crisp" and "clean" in discribing the X-Ref 12. Those comments are consistent with Audioholics observations.
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post #40 of 48 Old 05-03-2012, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Let me quote the OP: "It looks like the best bet for my needs is either the X-Ref 12 or the SVS"

I think the matter has been settled. As far SVS is concerned, I agree with you about their customer service.

I'm not telling him not purchase a SB12. I just gave my recommendation since the OP said he looking for a small musical sub. I don't have a SB12, I have an X-Ref 12 so naturally I'm going to recommend it because I have first hand expirence with it. That doesn't mean that the SB12 isn't a good sub, I just can't speak from first hand expirence like someone that owns that sub.

As far as integrating the X-Ref 12 into his system, man this sub is pretty much plug n play, its a very easy thing to do. If you owned one you would know that. BTW, ask anyone that owns any of Emotive products about their customer service, from almost all accounts its top rate. If you need any set up help you could call Emotiva and they will help you. They are polite and knowledeable about their products.

People with first hand expirence with the X-Ref 10 or 12 (not the AVS groupies) usually make the following observations about this subs:

"I don't think it would be much use to try to describe the plot of Transformers: Dark of the Moon. The movie lost any sense of believability with the opening shot of Shia LaBeouf waking up next to a beautiful supermodel. But it did earn SECRETS' 2011 Bad Ass Movie Audio award, earned in large part by the carnage inflicted on downtown Chicago. Here, the X-Ref 12 produced taut, clean bass without boominess or bloat. The Emotiva didn't create subterranean rumbling or wall-shaking bass, but you shouldn't expect that from a small, sealed-box design.

What you should expect is crisp, accurate response with music, and that was my experience with the X-Ref 12. Steely Dan's Two Against Nature isn't on my list of top five Steely Dan albums, but the incredible sound quality keeps me coming back to it. Jack of Speed is anchored by that trademark syncopated backbeat familiar to so many Dan songs, with the bass guitar staying deep in the pocket. The Emotiva brought a nice, authoritative snap to the beater on the kick drum, and accurately recreated the bass tones on the track."
[Secrets of Home theater and Hi-Fi]

Note the words "accurate" , "crisp" and "clean" in discribing the X-Ref 12. Those comments are consistent with Audioholics observations.

Like I said, if your arguments were good, you wouldn't have to scream at everyone with your text. I'm not going to read that.

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post #41 of 48 Old 05-04-2012, 06:30 AM
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i own a PB12NSD and an Epik Legend, i prefer the legend for music, which prob has to do with the sound differences between sealed and ported. to me in my room it just feels tighter and chrisper. i use the SVS for the HT and the Legend on the 2.1 system that is mostly music and some games
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post #42 of 48 Old 05-04-2012, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Sibuna View Post

i own a PB12NSD and an Epik Legend, i prefer the legend for music, which prob has to do with the sound differences between sealed and ported. to me in my room it just feels tighter and chrisper. i use the SVS for the HT and the Legend on the 2.1 system that is mostly music and some games

How does the legend do in HT? If you can only keep one, which is it
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post #43 of 48 Old 05-04-2012, 07:38 AM
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My general post.

If a sub is really that good, it doesn't need the seal of any professional review. Just word of mouth is good enough. I have read many posts here and so far I have not come across anyone else recommend the X-Ref 12 over any other sub. I would not spend $700 just for music. I prefer a sub that is good for both HT and music.

If X-ref 12 is so good, how come we don't see anyone else recommend it here or other forums (excluding the Emo lounge). There are a lot of music enthusiasts here like me. Either there are several 100 or 1000 X-Ref 12 owners enjoying the sub at home and dont bother to write a post here or else where or there is only one :-)
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post #44 of 48 Old 05-04-2012, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by whitemdx03 View Post

How does the legend do in HT? If you can only keep one, which is it

I imagin it works fine, ive never actually hooked it up to the other system. it sound great when playing movies off the computer.

as for which i would keep if i only had one i have no idea
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post #45 of 48 Old 05-04-2012, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Well, it's not settled in that the only recommendation in this thread for the X-Ref 12 is coming from you. In fact, if the OP will search AVS, he'll find tons of threads where the large majority of recommendations for the X-Ref sub series are coming from you, often in a haranguing style that would discourage any reasonable person from granting you credibility, not to mention your fringe position diatribes on <30hz content. Just because you insist on being the loudest and most zealous person in the room, doesn't make the X-Ref a great choice. If it's as good as you think it is, you wouln't need to argue as much or in the manner that you do.

To the OP: If it were me, I would go with the SVS SB12-NSD, the Rumba that Jim recently evaluated (nice review!), or even the NHT B-12d (not proven, but historically NHT has a pretty good reputation).

However, I would lean heavily toward the SVS because it's well proven. Tons of people here on AVS with experience with it. And one major point in favor of SVS Sound as a company is a long track record of fantastic customer support and service. There is also a very active community of SVS sub owners on this forum who will help out with configuration questions and how to place the sub in your room, and Ed Mullen, owner of SVS Sound, often joins in to help. Definitely a big perk.


Incidentally, there is no X-Ref community here on AVS, unless you count a community of one who chases away all other X-Ref owners. So there's no support here for how best to integrate that particular sub with your system.

Cel, I agree with you, SVS has subwoofer design down to a science. Their products consistently deliver top notch design, engeneering, build quality, and performance. I just thought I would add a little something about the current owners of SVS.

SVS was owned by Tom Vodhanel and Ron Stimpson. Tom left SVS 3 years ago. Ed Mullen was brought in due to his engineering background and status as a professional subwoofer tester, however, IIRC, Ed Mullen was never an owner. In June 2011, SVS was bought out by Specialties Technologies LLC, spearheaded by Gary Yacoubian. Ron Stimpson stayed on at SVS as did Ed Mullen as Vice President and CEO.

I don't get the idea that Ed Mullen was ever an owner, but I have been known to be wrong once in a while.

A few people around here think they are something special, but Ed Mullen is the real thing. An engineer by trade, Ed did professional quality subwoofer testing years ago. Here is a link to Ed Mullens test of the SVS PB-10 ISD way back in October 2004.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...r-10-2004.html

Even with the modest $429 price of the PB-10 ISD, it measured flat to 19Hz (+/-1 db from 19-150Hz).

Here is a link to the change of ownership:

http://www.audioholics.com/news/indu...chnologies-llc

Unlike some other entities, the performance graphs published by SVS turn out to be very accurate. It is hard to under estimate how few subwoofers actually meet their published specs...
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post #46 of 48 Old 05-04-2012, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

SVS was owned by Tom Vodhanel and Ron Stimpson. Tom left SVS 3 years ago after Ed Mullen was brought in, however, IIRC, Ed Mullen was never an owner. In June 2011, SVS was bought out by Specialties Technologies LLC, spearheaded by Gary Yacoubian. Ron Stimpson stayed on at SVS as did Ed Mullen as Vice President and CEO.

I don't get the idea that Ed Mullen was ever an owner, but I have been known to be wrong once in a while.

A few people around here think they are something special, but Ed Mullen is the read thing. An engineer by trade, Ed did professional quality subwoofer testing years ago. Here is a link to Ed Mullens test of the SVS PB-10 ISD way back in October 2004.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...r-10-2004.html

Even with the modest $429 price of the PB-10 ISD, it measured flat to 19Hz +0/-1 db from

Good to know about his role in the organization. I had previously seen some of his reviews. SVS certainly has a lot going for it on the customer support end.

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post #47 of 48 Old 05-04-2012, 10:38 AM
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Svs has one of the best support I have ever seen. Up there along with Hsu.

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #48 of 48 Old 05-06-2012, 06:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

However with X-Ref 10 sound quality won't be compromised. Very little content in music below 30hz. I think the OP was asking for a musical sub.


Don't you think distortion looks rather high, even in the 30-40 Hz range?

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