I don't want a one note sub anymore!! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 40 Old 05-04-2012, 08:53 AM - Thread Starter
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I have a Paradigm PS-1000. It is a one note sub.

I want a musical, articulate and accurate sub for mostly movies, but almost equally for music.

Budget is about $1000.00. I might be able to add a little more if necessary.

What do you suggest?

I watch movies on my system at about -20db or as loud as -15db.

I want a sub to match the rest of my system, as it was the place where I saved money to get better components and speakers etc.

Thanks to all of you for your help.
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post #2 of 40 Old 05-04-2012, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tremojem View Post

I have a Paradigm PS-1000. It is a one note sub.

I want a musical, articulate and accurate sub for mostly movies, but almost equally for music.

Budget is about $1000.00. I might be able to add a little more if necessary.

What do you suggest?

I watch movies on my system at about -20db or as loud as -15db.

I want a sub to match the rest of my system, as it was the place where I saved money to get better components and speakers etc.

Thanks to all of you for your help.

Epik Empire , and you should end up with C Note in your wallet.
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post #3 of 40 Old 05-04-2012, 09:16 AM
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A "one note sub" can just as easily be caused by non-ideal sub / seating placement and room modes - i.e. the room is providing modal reinforcement to a specific frequency.
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post #4 of 40 Old 05-04-2012, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

A "one note sub" can just as easily be caused by non-ideal sub / seating placement and room modes - i.e. the room is providing modal reinforcement to a specific frequency.

Exactly. The PS-1000 is not a "one-note" sub. This extensive test proves otherwise.
http://www.avtalk.co.uk/showthread.php?t=11432

If it sounds bad in your set up, it is likely due to poor placement, poor room acoustics, poor calibration, or all or any of the above.

Learn how to get the best out of the equipment you currently have before deciding if you have a need to upgrade.
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post #5 of 40 Old 05-04-2012, 09:46 AM
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Seems guys in that link are saying the sub sounded boomy?

To the OP, is it possible to explain your setup as to eliminate the possibility of incorrect setup?
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post #6 of 40 Old 05-04-2012, 09:52 AM
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It's a bandpass design. I would replace with some of the higher end units from SVS or Rythmik.
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post #7 of 40 Old 05-04-2012, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tremojem View Post

I have a Paradigm PS-1000. It is a one note sub.

I want a musical, articulate and accurate sub for mostly movies, but almost equally for music.

Budget is about $1000.00. I might be able to add a little more if necessary.

What do you suggest?

I watch movies on my system at about -20db or as loud as -15db.

I want a sub to match the rest of my system, as it was the place where I saved money to get better components and speakers etc.

Thanks to all of you for your help.

I would first post your setup and placement, room size etc before jumping ship.
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post #8 of 40 Old 05-04-2012, 12:18 PM - Thread Starter
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The room is about 13x24x10.

The PS-1000 was never meant to be anything more than what it is, which is an introductory sub.

I have grown tired of this and only wish to have a more musical and accurate sub.

Maybe you are right and my perception is wrong, but let me share this with you.

I knew the PS-1000 was an introductory sub and was happy with that, as it was the least important part of the system, with regards to how much you really have to spend on any one component to be in either the introductory, middle or top of the line class when assembling any system. I knew that I would be upgrading my sub in the future when I could afford to do so. I have upgraded receivers, mains, displays and BD, but the sub is always last. This is unfortunate so I am hoping to make a change this year.

I always thought my sub sounded great and still do to a certain extent. It will make a nice addition to the second home theater we have that is just now coming together and is located in a different part of the house and is more of a game room and sports viewing room etc. So back to the PS-1000 it is nice, except that when I am not in the theater room and my wife is viewing or listening to content all I can hear is a one note sub. It is not tracking and articulating changes to anything but instead only providing low end effect. You need to be in the room to hear if Sting is playing more than one note in a passage...otherwise he might as well be riding on the E string in the open position.

Maybe I am wrong, but to a certain extent...I think articulate musically accurate subs are able to sound somewhat musical in their ability to track frequency changes or notes for a lack of a better way to explain myself. In other words the sub is able to play a tune within it's limitations so if I were in another room and not able to hear anything above 100Hz and the beginning of the song where the bass line by itself (For The Love Of Money) is playing..again all I can hear is the sub and no other source material, I should be able to hear and recognize the song and/or bass line clearly as if I was hearing the entire system.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

So it has always been my understanding that the PS-1000 is not capable or designed for that level of musicality.

I am open to all corrections and critic, thanks all.
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post #9 of 40 Old 05-04-2012, 12:26 PM
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You are wrong. What you are hearing in another room reflects very little upon what's actually going on inside the room where the speakers are. It might not sound any different with a great sub if you are evaluating it from another room. If you really want to know what's going on, learn to measure the frequency response inside the room at your listening position. Forget about judging the sound from another room.
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post #10 of 40 Old 05-04-2012, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

You are wrong. What you are hearing in another room reflects very little upon what's actually going on inside the room where the speakers are. It might not sound any different with a great sub if you are evaluating it from another room. If you really want to know what's going on, learn to measure the frequency response inside the room at your listening position. Forget about judging the sound from another room.

+1. Just as a fer instance, when the nightclub a block or less away from my house has bands and all the doors are shut, all I can hear of a really loud band is the bass. But if I were to wander over to enjoy the music, I would find that it is full range with (sometimes) screeching vocals, dentist drill guitars etc. The effects of intervening walls don't tell the tale of bass reproduction in the space where you are listening. Heck, even of moving around a room to experience the joys of boundary effects.

SO if you get say 4 Submersives and get tehm dialed in perfectly for your room, you'll still be "one note" in other areas of the house. Just with deeper, louder and potentially more accurate overall bass reproduction.

On the other hand if you EQ any sub to eliminate whatever resonance causes a one note experience in a distant part of the house, it's sure to be very wrong, in terms of frequency response, at the locations where you listen. Similarly the folks in the nearby establishment would find the sound even even more trebly and piercing, if it were EQed to cut 30 dB out of the bass at my house a few humdred feet away.

The FR tests of your Paradigm show a sub that is reasonably flat through its pass band, and starts rolling off a little above 30 Hz, IIRC. What you can really get from an improved sub is potentially slightly flatter native response, deeper extension (down to 20 Hz or below) and the ability to play louder without audible distortion from the sub (not to say parts of your home or its furnishings won't add their own "distortions")
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post #11 of 40 Old 05-04-2012, 12:51 PM
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As the others have mentioned, the most significant contributor to "accuracy" is your frequency response curve which is the result of the subwoofer interaction of the room.

Below is a outdoor frequency response of the HSU VTF-15:


Here is the frequency response of the HSU VTF-15 in a room:

As you can see, the room affects a subwoofer's native frequency response.

I made the mistake of upgrading twice (to a JL Audio F113) before realizing that my perception of a one note subwoofer was not due to my subwoofer, but a null in my frequency response curve.

My suggestion would be to measure what your frequency response is. If it is relatively flat, then upgrading to a better subwoofer will likely be effective. If it's due to an even frequency response curve, I would see what happens after you fix it (i.e. EQ). Buying a bigger, better subwoofer in this case may not correct your issues, as it was in my case.

Quote:


So back to the PS-1000 it is nice, except that when I am not in the theater room and my wife is viewing or listening to content all I can hear is a one note sub.

As the others mentioned, that is going to occur regardless of what subwoofer you buy. Bass quality (and hence your frequency response) is very positional. Evening moving 10 feet away from your ideal listening position will change the way your bass sounds.

Life is good.
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post #12 of 40 Old 05-04-2012, 01:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Well I stand corrected and I thank you.

I will calibrate the system using Audyssey Multi EQ XT.

My Denon receiver has the ability to set up and calibrate my system...I think.

It is fairly new so I have to dig in. I have not done it yet because my wife was rearranging and buying new furniture.

Now that I feel relatively safe for awhile I will run this software and look forward to better sub and an overall better experience with regards to how it mixes with the rest of the system.

Thanks all.
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post #13 of 40 Old 05-04-2012, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tremojem View Post

Well I stand corrected and I thank you.

I will calibrate the system using Audyssey Multi EQ XT.

My Denon receiver has the ability to set up and calibrate my system...I think.

It is fairly new so I have to dig in. I have not done it yet because my wife was rearranging and buying new furniture.

Now that I feel relatively safe for awhile I will run this software and look forward to better sub and an overall better experience with regards to how it mixes with the rest of the system.

Thanks all.

Just to add some fair warning, Audyssey Multi EQ XT can sometimes make things worse. If it does not sound better to you, then I would invest in a sound pressure meter and map out your frequency response using a test tone CD or use Room EQ Wizard.

Life is good.
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post #14 of 40 Old 05-04-2012, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhan1000 View Post

As the others have mentioned, the most significant contributor to "accuracy" is your frequency response curve which is the result of the subwoofer interaction of the room.

Below is a outdoor frequency response of the HSU VTF-15:


Here is the frequency response of the HSU VTF-15 in a room:

As you can see, the room affects a subwoofer's native frequency response.

I made the mistake of upgrading twice (to a JL Audio F113) before realizing that my perception of a one note subwoofer was not due to my subwoofer, but a null in my frequency response curve.

My suggestion would be to measure what your frequency response is. If it is relatively flat, then upgrading to a better subwoofer will likely be effective. If it's due to an even frequency response curve, I would see what happens after you fix it (i.e. EQ). Buying a bigger, better subwoofer in this case may not correct your issues, as it was in my case.


As the others mentioned, that is going to occur regardless of what subwoofer you buy. Bass quality (and hence your frequency response) is very positional. Evening moving 10 feet away from your ideal listening position will change the way your bass sounds.



You don't have to move even 10 feet to change the frequency response has been affected. When people do the crawl test each foot makes a difference...
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post #15 of 40 Old 05-04-2012, 06:37 PM
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Rythmik...you won't be sorry!

Jeff
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post #16 of 40 Old 05-04-2012, 07:30 PM
 
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bareflooring?. Bass traps works wonders
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post #17 of 40 Old 05-04-2012, 08:23 PM
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The Paradigm PS1000 is a loud, boomy sub. You do need to to room treatments and placement tests to get the best results, but in the end you'll end up with a room that deserves a MUCH better sub than the PS1000. It kind of sucks to be honest. Its an old model that should be put to rest as there are much better options, even from paradigm, available right now.
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post #18 of 40 Old 05-04-2012, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

[/b]

You don't have to move even 10 feet to change the frequency response has been affected. When people do the crawl test each foot makes a difference...

Tierry Budge used to claim that subwoofer placement should be done by 1/2" movements at a time. That process was almost impossible with some of the woofer he had designed (size and weight), but he insisted those small increments were critical to find the best location.
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post #19 of 40 Old 05-04-2012, 11:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tremojem View Post

The room is about 13x24x10.

The PS-1000 was never meant to be anything more than what it is, which is an introductory sub.

I have grown tired of this and only wish to have a more musical and accurate sub.

Maybe you are right and my perception is wrong, but let me share this with you.

I knew the PS-1000 was an introductory sub and was happy with that, as it was the least important part of the system, with regards to how much you really have to spend on any one component to be in either the introductory, middle or top of the line class when assembling any system.
I always thought my sub sounded great and still do to a certain extent. It will make a nice addition to the second home theater we have that is just now coming together and is located in a different part of the house and is more of a game room and sports viewing room etc. So back to the PS-1000 it is nice, except that when I am not in the theater room and my wife is viewing or listening to content all I can hear is a one note sub. It is not tracking and articulating changes to anything but instead only providing low end effect. You need to be in the room to hear if Sting is playing more than one note in a passage...otherwise he might as well be riding on the E string in the open position.

Maybe I am wrong, but to a certain extent...I think articulate musically accurate subs are able to sound somewhat musical in their ability to track frequency changes or notes for a lack of a better way to explain myself. In other words the sub is able to play a tune within it's limitations so if I were in another room and not able to hear anything above 100Hz and the beginning of the song where the bass line by itself (For The Love Of Money) is playing..again all I can hear is the sub and no other source material, I should be able to hear and recognize the song and/or bass line clearly as if I was hearing the entire system.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

So it has always been my understanding that the PS-1000 is not capable or designed for that level of musicality.

I am open to all corrections and critic, thanks all.

I think you are correct! My Paradigm PS1200 did the same thing, or seemed to do the same thing. A one note sub. With my new Rythmik FV15 I'm hearing bass and LFE I couldn't have even dreamed of!

Jeff
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post #20 of 40 Old 05-05-2012, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhan1000 View Post

Just to add some fair warning, Audyssey Multi EQ XT can sometimes make things worse. If it does not sound better to you, then I would invest in a sound pressure meter and map out your frequency response using a test tone CD or use Room EQ Wizard.

On the other hand, if you have not used Audyssey yet to calibrate your subwoofer, you are much more likely to find that it improves it.

That being said, I agree with others. There are certainly <$1000 subs that will be an SQ improvement. Or you might even consider dual Rythmik FV12s or dual Epik Legends.

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post #21 of 40 Old 05-05-2012, 10:37 AM
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Is this PS-1000 look like bose type design? In that the driver is concealed within the box with no interaction to the outside world?

My gut feel tells me it might be great for movies, but not as a natural extension for music listening.

Comments?
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post #22 of 40 Old 05-05-2012, 10:43 AM
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By the way, i use a pair of velodyne vx-11 and i enjoy listening to music on those very much.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tremojem View Post

I have a Paradigm PS-1000. It is a one note sub.

I want a musical, articulate and accurate sub for mostly movies, but almost equally for music.

Budget is about $1000.00. I might be able to add a little more if necessary.

What do you suggest?

I watch movies on my system at about -20db or as loud as -15db.

I want a sub to match the rest of my system, as it was the place where I saved money to get better components and speakers etc.

Thanks to all of you for your help.

Are you not getting low frequency extension and ouput? I don't understand what problem you are having with your sub. If you are watchings movies, one note should be fine. Why is that a bad thing. Movies are supposed to rumble and make things go boom. Give an example of some movies you watched when the sub sounded boomy.
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post #24 of 40 Old 05-06-2012, 04:58 AM
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I spent a year of my life wrestling with a pair of Danley DTS10's that sounded enemic. After lots of base trapping, trying dozens of placement options and proper measurements and EQ, they are outstanding! I can testify to a tremendous difference in sub performance using the same sub.

Definitely start with room treatment, placement and EQ. ANY sub that you choose with require them. They are requirements, not options.

Room nulls can not be improved by EQ. Only placement will fix them, and in some cases they can't be fixed. This is one reason folks go with a pair of subs. It will smooth out the FR.

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post #25 of 40 Old 05-06-2012, 05:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhan1000 View Post

Just to add some fair warning, Audyssey Multi EQ XT can sometimes make things worse. If it does not sound better to you, then I would invest in a sound pressure meter and map out your frequency response using a test tone CD or use Room EQ Wizard.

Is there a way to bypass Audyssey on the subwoofer and continue to use it for the rest of your setup?

fdsfds
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post #26 of 40 Old 05-06-2012, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Riddle View Post


Is there a way to bypass Audyssey on the subwoofer and continue to use it for the rest of your setup?

Which receiver do you have?

From my experience - denon's = no, onkyo's = yes.

With my denon 4310 if you changed the sub setting from yes to no (or the other way, no to yes) then Audyssey would become unavailable and need to be run again with the new setting.

My onkyo 1009 you can run Audyssey with the sub on 'no' then change it to yes, and Audyssey will still be active. Then you just need to change the crossover settings as your speakers (fronts anyways) will be set to full range.
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post #27 of 40 Old 05-06-2012, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

You are wrong. What you are hearing in another room reflects very little upon what's actually going on inside the room where the speakers are. It might not sound any different with a great sub if you are evaluating it from another room. If you really want to know what's going on, learn to measure the frequency response inside the room at your listening position. Forget about judging the sound from another room.

In some cases, this could be correct. I had a Paradigm 14+yr. old PS1200 and just replaced it with a Rythmik FV15. My Paradigm was an inclosed speaker facing front (enclosed mind you not visible) with 3 smallish ports in the rear, a boomy sub to say the least. I put the Rythmik in the same exact position, ran Audyssey and the Rythmik is in another Universe compared to the Paradigm. I experimented yesterday by corner placing the Rythmik and reran Audyssey and promptly moved the sub back to it's original spot, corner placement is not a good local in my setup. To the OP, just do your ears a favor and get rid of the Paradigm and get the Rythmik or some other ID sub you like. I played Inception last night and was blown away by the LFE I was missing from the Paradigm, and Inception is a torture test for any sub!

Jeff
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post #28 of 40 Old 05-06-2012, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony123 View Post


Definitely start with room treatment, placement and EQ. ANY sub that you choose with require them. They are requirements, not options.

Room nulls can not be improved by EQ. Only placement will fix them, and in some cases they can't be fixed. This is one reason folks go with a pair of subs. It will smooth out the FR.

I have what most here would consider a POS Audiosource powered woofer on my patio that sounds great. It's surprising just how well the bass is reproduced when there are no boundaries.

¿lɐɯɹou ǝq ʎɥʍ

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post #29 of 40 Old 05-06-2012, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cubalis2 View Post

Which receiver do you have?

From my experience - denon's = no, onkyo's = yes.

With my denon 4310 if you changed the sub setting from yes to no (or the other way, no to yes) then Audyssey would become unavailable and need to be run again with the new setting.

My onkyo 1009 you can run Audyssey with the sub on 'no' then change it to yes, and Audyssey will still be active. Then you just need to change the crossover settings as your speakers (fronts anyways) will be set to full range.

Interesting. I have an Onkyo TX-NR808.

fdsfds
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post #30 of 40 Old 05-06-2012, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Riddle View Post


Is there a way to bypass Audyssey on the subwoofer and continue to use it for the rest of your setup?

Yes, Select no sub from the set up, run Audissey, then go back and select sub "on" back .
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