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post #1 of 42 Old 05-08-2012, 02:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Guys,
I need a good sub to replace my Klisch SW310. The sub I am looking for needs to be less than 16" in heigh. I am attaching the picture of my set up where the sub going in. I cannot place the sub any where else per my wife (pronounced: BOSS). Room size is about 20x20x12 that open to the kitchen and living room. I understand it is very hard to fill my room with just one small sub, but I DO NOT have a choice. I know I can have a much better sub than my SW310 that meets my criteria. My budget is 700ish but can go a bit over if the sub is better. After a little searching, I find these:
SVS SB12: http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/sealed-box/sb12-nsd
BK XXLS400: http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers/XXLS400FF.htm
Def Tech Prosub 1000: http://www.definitivetech.com/Produc...id=ProSub_1000
Def Tech SC6000: http://www.definitivetech.com/Produc...SuperCube_6000
Paradigm Ultra Cube 12: do not know the price. http://www.paradigm.com/products/pro...s/ultracube-12
Paradigm Monitor Sub 12: do not know price http://www.paradigm.com/products/pro...monitor-sub-12
I was considering the Rumba 12 but with its 16" in height, it will touch my TV stand. Which sub out of these would you pick? Any thing else that meets my need I should consider? Thanks.
LL
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post #2 of 42 Old 05-09-2012, 05:48 AM
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Anything with a side-firing driver or PR is going to be a bad idea, since the space on the sides is so restricted. Personnaly, I wouldn't use down-firing due to the same thing. You're probably limited to a front-firing.

BTW... you're link to the SC6000 is broken. Also, you can scratch BK Electronics off your list - they don't sell in the US.

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post #3 of 42 Old 05-09-2012, 06:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post

My budget is 700ish but can go a bit over if the sub is better.

I'm not sure how much "a bit over" $700 you actually intend on going, but given that you've listed the SC6000 - which a bit of Googling shows is retailing for $999 - I'll suggest the Rythmik F12 ($874 + shipping).

- 12" driver
- 370W RMS amp w/ servo control
- 15-3/4" (w) x 15-3/4" (h) x 17" (d - 18-1/2" w/ grille)
- 14-100Hz (-2 dB @ 14Hz)
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post #4 of 42 Old 05-09-2012, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

I'm not sure how much "a bit over" 4700 you actually intend on going, but given that you've listed the SC6000 - which a bit of Googling shows is retailing for $999 - I'll suggest the Rythmik F12 ($874 + shipping).

- 12" driver
- 370W RMS amp w/ servo control
- 15-3/4" (w) x 15-3/4" (h) x 17" (d - 18-1/2" w/ grille)
- 14-100Hz (-2 dB @ 14Hz)

The SuperCube 6000 has 2 passive radiators so not a good idea.

The Rythmik F12 @ $874 + shipping would be my first choice.
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post #5 of 42 Old 05-09-2012, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post


The SuperCube 6000 has 2 passive radiators so not a good idea.

The Rythmik F12 @ $874 + shipping would be my first choice.

+1 on the F12

SVS SB12-NSD if you have to stay within budget.
Tim
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post #6 of 42 Old 05-09-2012, 10:57 AM
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One option would be to add another sub in the other empty hole and have two small subs. Option two would be to mount the TV to the stand and remove all the inner wood shelves. This would give a few more inches to work with. I also would think you might want a sealed sub.
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post #7 of 42 Old 05-09-2012, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks all for chiming in. Front firing seal sub is definitely what I need. The Rythmik F12 is looking good. Not sure if I want to run two subs- one being the Klipsch SW310 unless you guys think it will be better integrating it with a F12 or SB12.
14-100Hz (-2 dB @ 14Hz) for the F12: That is low Hz but can someone explain what it means when MFR lists 14Hz at -2db or 23-270Hz +- 3dbs (SVS SB12)? I have not figured it out yet. Thanks guys.
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post #8 of 42 Old 05-09-2012, 11:45 AM
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Frequency response is useless unless distortion and SPL measurements are also given, else it's like comparing apples to oranges.

More in-depth explanation here:
http://www.audioholics.com/education...uency-response
some visual graphs:
http://www.ecoustics.com/electronics...es/131062.html
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post #9 of 42 Old 05-09-2012, 11:54 AM
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I didn't see it listed but what mains are you using?

Honestly, I would do the cheaper SB12 over the Rythmik all things considered (the poor placement option being the biggest factor).
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post #10 of 42 Old 05-09-2012, 11:57 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whitemdx03 View Post

Frequency response is useless unless distortion and SPL measurements are also given, else it's like comparing apples to oranges.

More in-depth explanation here:
http://www.audioholics.com/education...uency-response
some visual graphs:
http://www.ecoustics.com/electronics...es/131062.html

Regarding your point, I would steer away from the Rythmik F12. It was tested as having high levels of distortion. That sub is not really idiot proof, do the lack of a quality limiter.
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post #11 of 42 Old 05-09-2012, 11:59 AM
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Do not pay any attention to Auditor55. He doesn't have a clue.
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post #12 of 42 Old 05-09-2012, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Regarding your point, I would steer away from the Rythmik F12. It was tested as having high levels of distortion. That sub is not really idiot proof, do the lack of a quality limiter.

linky?
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post #13 of 42 Old 05-09-2012, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post

... can someone explain what it means when MFR lists 14Hz at -2db or 23-270Hz +- 3dbs (SVS SB12)? I have not figured it out yet.

A variance of 0dB over a specified frequency range means that all frequencies within that range will play at the same sound level. A +/- ?dB variance means that some frequencies within the range will sound a bit louder or a bit quieter than others, by as much as ? decibels. (Above and below that range, the output (significantly) drops off.) The very common (and quasi-standard) measure of variance is +/- 3dB. The smaller the variance, the more consistent the sound level across the specified frequency range.

- however -

The frequency response (range of frequencies within a given variance) listed by a sub manufacturer does not necessarily account for things such as:
- distortion (a sub may be able to play down to 20Hz @ -3dB but only with high levels of distortion, while another may be able to do so more cleanly); and
- output (a sub may be able to play 20-100Hz +/-3dB fairly cleanly at 75dB but not at 100dB, which means the sub would be better suited for use in a smaller space at more moderate volumes, rather than in a larger space at higher volumes).

I hope that my horribly un-technical explanation is somewhat helpful.
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post #14 of 42 Old 05-09-2012, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Regarding your point, I would steer away from the Rythmik F12. It was tested as having high levels of distortion. That sub is not really idiot proof, do the lack of a quality limiter.

If you are talking about Ilkka's test (http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...ealed-56l.html from about 5 years ago, you are missing a couple important facts and misinterpreting some of the measurements. First, that was a DIY sub, not a commercial version. Also, that DIY sub used the older 370PEQ amp. The newer PEQ2 and PEQ3 versions have a defeatable limiter. The PEQ3 is now standard on the F12. While maybe not idiot proof, even without a limiter, the rumble filter and extension settings can be used to control excursion and distortion with ULF content. If you are reaching the limits of the sub, those controls can be used almost like a limiter. In Ilkka's test, the sub was run in the lowest possible extension settings and with the rumble filter off.

Even with all of the above taken into consideration, let's compare the actual distortion measurements from the sweeps between the DIY Rythmik tested by Ilkka and the XRef-12 as tested by audioholics.

From the max output sweep, the Rythmik and XRef have similar output from 40hz and up. But below 40hz, the Rythmik has the advantage.

Now lets compare the distortion. Ilkka did not run CEA2010 tests so these are from the sweeps and THD graphs.

100db at 30hz: Rythmik - 10% XRef - more than 30%
95db at 25hz: Rythimik - 10% XRef - more than 30%
93db at 20hz: Rythimik - 23% XRef - Unknown, couldn't hit more than 84db (THD already more then 30% at 84db)

The Rythmik has the same or less distortion then the Emotiva at all frequencies if the SPL is the same. The Rythmik does have higher distortion below 30hz if compared at the same nominal sweep level, but with much higher output. However, you can use the extension, damping and rumble filter controls to change the low end roll off to lower the distortion at the expense of output.

-Mike
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post #15 of 42 Old 05-09-2012, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post

Guys,
I need a good sub to replace my Klisch SW310. The sub I am looking for needs to be less than 16" in heigh. I am attaching the picture of my set up where the sub going in. I cannot place the sub any where else per my wife (pronounced: BOSS). Room size is about 20x20x12 that open to the kitchen and living room. I understand it is very hard to fill my room with just one small sub, but I DO NOT have a choice. I know I can have a much better sub than my SW310 that meets my criteria. My budget is 700ish but can go a bit over if the sub is better. After a little searching, I find these:
SVS SB12: http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/sealed-box/sb12-nsd
BK XXLS400: http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers/XXLS400FF.htm
Def Tech Prosub 1000: http://www.definitivetech.com/Produc...id=ProSub_1000
Def Tech SC6000: http://www.definitivetech.com/Produc...SuperCube_6000
Paradigm Ultra Cube 12: do not know the price. http://www.paradigm.com/products/pro...s/ultracube-12
Paradigm Monitor Sub 12: do not know price http://www.paradigm.com/products/pro...monitor-sub-12
I was considering the Rumba 12 but with its 16" in height, it will touch my TV stand. Which sub out of these would you pick? Any thing else that meets my need I should consider? Thanks.

[/url][IMG]


Unlike the vast majority of subwoofers, the side panels of the Rumba extend a quarter inch beyond the front and rear panels, (both at the top and the bottom). What this means is that it is probably not a good idea to stack a pair of Rumbas, especially considering the 75 pound weight. If the side panels were the same hight as the front and rear panels the Rumba would have been 15.5 inches high instead of 16 inches high. There does not seem to be any functional advantage to the higher side panels, rather, it seems it is just a design flourish. Then again, maybe Murrell doesn't want buyers stacking the Rumba.
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post #16 of 42 Old 05-09-2012, 12:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironhead1230 View Post

If you are talking about Ilkka's test (http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...ealed-56l.html from about 5 years ago, you are missing a couple important facts and misinterpreting some of the measurements. First, that was a DIY sub, not a commercial version. Also, that DIY sub used the older 370PEQ amp. The newer PEQ2 and PEQ3 versions have a defeatable limiter. The PEQ3 is now standard on the F12. While maybe not idiot proof, even without a limiter, the rumble filter and extension settings can be used to control excursion and distortion with ULF content. If you are reaching the limits of the sub, those controls can be used almost like a limiter. In Ilkka's test, the sub was run in the lowest possible extension settings and with the rumble filter off.

Even with all of the above taken into consideration, let's compare the actual distortion measurements from the sweeps between the DIY Rythmik tested by Ilkka and the XRef-12 as tested by audioholics.

From the max output sweep, the Rythmik and XRef have similar output from 40hz and up. But below 40hz, the Rythmik has the advantage.

Now lets compare the distortion. Ilkka did not run CEA2010 tests so these are from the sweeps and THD graphs.

100db at 30hz: Rythmik - 10% XRef - more than 30%
95db at 25hz: Rythimik - 10% XRef - more than 30%
93db at 20hz: Rythimik - 23% XRef - Unknown, couldn't hit more than 84db (THD already more then 30% at 84db)

The Rythmik has the same or less distortion then the Emotiva at all frequencies if the SPL is the same. The Rythmik does have higher distortion below 30hz if compared at the same nominal sweep level, but with much higher output. However, you can use the extension, damping and rumble filter controls to change the low end roll off to lower the distortion at the expense of output.

-Mike

It wouldn't be fair for me to make my criticisms about the Rythmik F12 based the information you have provided above. So I withdraw my admonitions about steering away from it. I was wrong and stand corrected. I would go on to say that its a very good sub. A little pricey, but really nice, probably my kind of sub.
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post #17 of 42 Old 05-09-2012, 12:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drewTT View Post

I didn't see it listed but what mains are you using?

Honestly, I would do the cheaper SB12 over the Rythmik all things considered (the poor placement option being the biggest factor).

I use 4 Polk Audio in ceiling speakers. This is my secondary room as I also have a dedicated theater room. I am not sure if the F12 is $300 better than the SVS SB12??? it weight more than twice the SB12 though
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post #18 of 42 Old 05-09-2012, 12:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

A variance of 0dB over a specified frequency range means that all frequencies within that range will play at the same sound level. A +/- ?dB variance means that some frequencies within the range will sound a bit louder or a bit quieter than others, by as much as ? decibels. (Above and below that range, the output (significantly) drops off.) The very common (and quasi-standard) measure of variance is +/- 3dB. The smaller the variance, the more consistent the sound level across the specified frequency range.

- however -

The frequency response (range of frequencies within a given variance) listed by a sub manufacturer does not necessarily account for things such as:
- distortion (a sub may be able to play down to 20Hz @ -3dB but only with high levels of distortion, while another may be able to do so more cleanly); and
- output (a sub may be able to play 20-100Hz +/-3dB fairly cleanly at 75dB but not at 100dB, which means the sub would be better suited for use in a smaller space at more moderate volumes, rather than in a larger space at higher volumes).

I hope that my horribly un-technical explanation is somewhat helpful.

Thanks for the detail explaination.
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post #19 of 42 Old 05-09-2012, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post

Need a good sub less than 16" height

Nice niche u got in there but the drawers below are crooked!

Solution: FREE. Explanation: I will have to charge$ you.

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post #20 of 42 Old 05-09-2012, 01:20 PM - Thread Starter
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^^
Thanks. It is just the saggy door. Fixed!
LL
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post #21 of 42 Old 05-09-2012, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post

I use 4 Polk Audio in ceiling speakers. This is my secondary room as I also have a dedicated theater room. I am not sure if the F12 is $300 better than the SVS SB12??? it weight more than twice the SB12 though

I don't think the F12 is worth it at $300 more then the SB. It certainly will not have more output considering the very similar specs. It may have arguably little better sound quality due to the servo but the SB is no slouch in that department. Again, I don't think it's worth the $300 premium. Also since you are mounting it in a pretty tough spot, that may negate any sound quality advantage it might possibly have over the SB.
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post #22 of 42 Old 05-09-2012, 08:45 PM
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I'd love to see the look on your wife's face if you brought in a Danley DTS-10. Hey, it's 16" high when laid on its back!
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post #23 of 42 Old 05-12-2012, 03:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Klipsch SW310 was sold (Got $500 for it). Await new sub to go into the empty slot. Most likely going with the SVS SB12 unless you guys tell me otherwise. Thanks.
LL
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post #24 of 42 Old 05-12-2012, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post

Klipsch SW310 was sold (Got $500 for it). Await new sub to go into the empty slot. Most likely going with the SVS SB12 unless you guys tell me otherwise. Thanks.

tvuong,

You cant go wrong with the SVS SB12 it is a fantastic sub!

Murrel

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post #25 of 42 Old 05-12-2012, 03:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, Murrel. I was so close to get your Rumba 12. If my TV stand can be a tag taller such that the Rumba won't touch it, I would definitely order one as I still believe it is better than the SB12 just based on Jim's review, others who own one, the built quality (~75Lbs with the driver itself weighs almost as much as the SB12) and your reputation here. I assume you did listen to the SB12? and if you say the SB12 is a 'fantastic sub', it must be so. Glad to hear that from you.
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post #26 of 42 Old 05-12-2012, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post

Thanks, Murrel. I was so close to get your Rumba 12. If my TV stand can be a tag taller such that the Rumba won't touch it, I would definitely order one as I still believe it is better than the SB12 just based on Jim's review, others who own one, the built quality (~75Lbs with the driver itself weighs almost as much as the SB12) and your reputation here. I assume you did listen to the SB12? and if you say the SB12 is a 'fantastic sub', it must be so. Glad to hear that from you.

tvuong,

I am honored the Rumba was on your list. All of the major ID players and many of the major brands make a great product. All of these subs have a place somewhere. Its not always about graphs or even listening reviews. Like you many customers have a limitation or three. It could be price, color, size, design or any number of things. Its a good thing to have so many great choices. This allows customer to find the right sub for them.

Don't get me wrong measuring a subs performance is important. I for one like the idea and love to see the results. Getting a review of this type is harder than one might think. But in the end these measurements allow a customer to make a more informed decision. Especially if they have little or no limitations on the purchase.

SVS engineers some great subs! So just enjoy your purchase! And please let us all know how it sounds in your cabinet. Believe it or not many people have the same issue that you have and would love to know how it works out for you.

Have a great weekend!
Murrel

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post #27 of 42 Old 05-14-2012, 08:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Alright, the SVS SB12 is on its way to my place. Should be here Thursday. It better be better than the Klipsch SW310 it replaces. Thanks everyone.
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post #28 of 42 Old 05-14-2012, 08:41 AM
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OP, the SVS is a nice sub, but consider a used Sunfire True Subwoofer. Especially the 10" models. They'd be right in your ballpark for price used, and a single 10" model can shake the whole house. 2700 watts does a lot even with a smaller sub. I use one myself and love it.

-GlassWolf
My Home Cinema

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post #29 of 42 Old 05-14-2012, 08:57 AM - Thread Starter
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I wouldn't buy used sub myself as it might have been abused plus no warranty for something costs this much is a no no (for me anyway). Thanks for the suggestion.
I will try my best to report back.
Thanks.
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post #30 of 42 Old 05-14-2012, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post

Alright, the SVS SB12 is on its way to my place. Should be here Thursday. It better be better than the Klipsch SW310 it replaces. Thanks everyone.

Glad you found your sub bro, let us know how it turns out as I'm still searching for mine and the SB12 is definitely one of the candidates
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