Seaton Sumersive HP, Rythmik FV15 HP, or JTR Captivator 1000 - Pick One - Page 3 - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: The One Money is an Object Sub to Rule Them All
Seaton Submersive HP 4 100.00%
JTR Captivator 1000 0 0%
Rythmik FV15HP 0 0%
Voters: 4. You may not vote on this poll

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post #61 of 93 Old 05-11-2012, 06:25 PM
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There have been a few people who replaced their submersives with a LMS sub and said it was better.
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post #62 of 93 Old 05-11-2012, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

There have been a few people who replaced their submersives with a LMS sub and said it was better.

DIY ?

$1000 woofers ?

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post #63 of 93 Old 05-11-2012, 06:56 PM
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imagine what mark could do with those woofers

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post #64 of 93 Old 05-11-2012, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otk View Post

imagine what mark could do with those woofers

They are for sale for anyone.
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post #65 of 93 Old 05-11-2012, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

There have been a few people who replaced their submersives with a LMS sub and said it was better.

Well then...to tweak a quote from otk on the prior page:

"i have yet to see a review where someone said "i just replaced my LMS with such and such and wow am i glad i did"

i have also yet to see a review where someone just replaced their old sub with a LMS and wasn't totally blown away by it's performance and sound quality

it's a proven product that's been around for years and has yet to be beat. all other subwoofer companies should just fold up now"

Using the otk's logic, the LMS is clearly better than the submersive and all other subwoofers.
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post #66 of 93 Old 05-11-2012, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post


Well then...to tweak a quote from the prior page:

"i have yet to see a review where someone said "i just replaced my LMS with such and such and wow am i glad i did"

i have also yet to see a review where someone just replaced their old sub with a LMS and wasn't totally blown away by it's performance and sound quality

it's a proven product that's been around for years and has yet to be beat. all other subwoofer companies should just fold up now"

Using the same argument, the LMS is clearly better than the submersive and all other subwoofers.

I never said it was the best ever just saying there are people who think their LMS sub whether DIY or built by funkywaves is better than their submersive for whatever reasons. I was just letting otk know there are examples. I have never heard either. I know another who likes a different sub better than his submersive. It is OK because these are opinions anyways.
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post #67 of 93 Old 05-11-2012, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I never said it was the best ever just saying there are people who think their LMS sub whether DIY or built by funkywaves is better than their submersive for whatever reasons. I was just letting otk know there are examples. I have never heard either. I know another who likes a different sub better than his submersive. It is OK because these are opinions anyways.

Sorry MK, edited my quote to be more clear.

I was referring to otk's logic of the submersive (I replaced 'submersive' with 'LMS' in his quote), not yours. I agree with you, there are many options including the LMS, Funkywaves, JTR, etc. that people would prefer over the subm. It's a great sub, but it ain't the best for everyone...and certainly not a clear winner when you consider all options for the same money...
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post #68 of 93 Old 05-11-2012, 08:18 PM
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I own Rythmik. I voted for SubM. My second vote would be the Cap.

Just wanted to let the OP know that everyone who voted in this poll did not just vote for what they own. I would also guess that most of the people who voted have not heard all of the subs in question. Mine is the F12 not the 15hp but the sound signature should be identical per Brian Ding.

The main reason I would get the SubM is sound quality. It is subjective and not everyone feels the same way. I will also second that the output difference is HUGE. My little Rythmik is a pea shooter by comparison. So you just need to consider the application. I may end up keeping my Rythmik as a second sub to fill in the gaps left by whichever high performance sub I end up with.

Nothin wrong with my Rythmik. But there are other fish in the sea and I can admit it.
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post #69 of 93 Old 05-11-2012, 08:29 PM
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How is the Rythmik FV15 HP on home theater? My budget is 1500 so I won't be able to do the other two.

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post #70 of 93 Old 05-11-2012, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldiablos View Post

How is the Rythmik FV15 HP on home theater? My budget is 1500 so I won't be able to do the other two.

Should be awesome.

In fact, if I had 2800 to spend on subs and I knew I was never going to upgrade again, I'd take two FV15HPs over 1 subm any day. WRT a flat frequency response, 2 is always better than one.
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post #71 of 93 Old 05-11-2012, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Well then...to tweak a quote from otk on the prior page:

"i have yet to see a review where someone said "i just replaced my LMS with such and such and wow am i glad i did"

i have also yet to see a review where someone just replaced their old sub with a LMS and wasn't totally blown away by it's performance and sound quality

it's a proven product that's been around for years and has yet to be beat. all other subwoofer companies should just fold up now"

Using the otk's logic, the LMS is clearly better than the submersive and all other subwoofers.

Lukeamdman details his experience with both the cap and the lms5400 in post 2541 and post 2455. He seemed to think the subs were pretty equitable.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...186832&page=82

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post #72 of 93 Old 05-11-2012, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Should be awesome.

In fact, if I had 2800 to spend on subs and I knew I was never going to upgrade again, I'd take two FV15HPs over 1 subm any day. WRT a flat frequency response, 2 is always better than one.

Yes, but the Seaton has dual drivers, just in a single enclosure. Such a problem to spend 3k on sub(s) and worry about it...

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post #73 of 93 Old 05-11-2012, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Yes, but the Seaton has dual drivers, just in a single enclosure. Such a problem to spend 3k on sub(s) and worry about it...

It does, but they are colocated. You don't have the flexibility to separate the drivers to help remove nulls, peaks etc. like you would with two FV15HPs.

And yes, great problem to have!
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post #74 of 93 Old 05-11-2012, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post


Lukeamdman details his experience with both the cap and the lms5400 in post 2541 and post 2455. He seemed to think the subs were pretty equitable.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...186832&page=82

He also sold his caps and kept his LMS5400's. Now having said that there could be many reasons for doing that and none have to be sound quality or output. Maybe he could get more for the caps, maybe he invested too much on the LMS to lose money, the LMS was smaller, who knows but I usually keep what I like better.
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post #75 of 93 Old 05-12-2012, 03:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Should be awesome.

In fact, if I had 2800 to spend on subs and I knew I was never going to upgrade again, I'd take two FV15HPs over 1 subm any day. WRT a flat frequency response, 2 is always better than one.

+1. The people who get offended by the thought that someone prefers DIY/Funkywaves over Seaton are the same one who think it is ok to compare a single FV15HP to a much more expensive Submersive. If you follow their posts long enough you will see just how much water they hold.

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post #76 of 93 Old 05-12-2012, 05:19 AM
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To answer the original question: in a room with decent <30 hz room gain, a sealed sub with optimized DSP like the submersive would work excellent. However, if that is not the case, I would say a ported/passive radiator design would compliment the room better.
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post #77 of 93 Old 05-12-2012, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otk View Post

and pepsi is better

In that case you should be a Cap man, Coke is clearly superior.

MK, I know you are working on a 6 eD sub project right now but I'm looking forward to the inevitable submersives vs lms 5400s comparison in your room. You know it's coming!
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post #78 of 93 Old 05-12-2012, 07:43 AM
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In that case you should be a Cap man, Coke is clearly superior.

cherry coke zero

and the cap s2 looks very interesting

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post #79 of 93 Old 05-12-2012, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmichaelf View Post

This is a thought experiment to satisfy my curiosity. It seems to me these three are the trending boxes around here for the last year or so.

What would you choose and why? Does the Rythmik play at the JTR or Seaton level at ~1k less than both delivered? Are the JTR and Submersive neck and neck performance wise, as their pricing suggests, or does one clearly outperform the other?

Delivered Price:
Submersive ~$2500
JTR ~$2100
Rythmik $1,400

I know you have listed these particular subs I'm assuming because everyone here is "doing" it. Before I bought my dual sub setup, I looked at the sub M and the caps. I liked both except for the price tags. I know I know, subs arent cheap, but WOW. Long story short, I got two 18 inch ported subs each with a 1300 watt amp for about what you will pay for ONE SubM. If you just love the speaker power amp, get one of those. I looked into getting one of them to power both subs. Of course those are also outrageous in price too.

If you need some more specifics, pm me.
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post #80 of 93 Old 05-12-2012, 08:26 AM
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[quote=nezff;22014778]I know you have listed these particular subs I'm assuming because everyone here is "doing" it. Before I bought my dual sub setup, I looked at the sub M and the caps. I liked both except for the price tags. I know I know, subs arent cheap, but WOW. Long story short, I got two 18 inch ported subs each with a 1300 watt amp for about what you will pay for ONE SubM. If you just love the speaker power amp, get one of those. I looked into getting one of them to power both subs. Of course those are also outrageous in price too.

/QUOTE]


I don't think ed is part of the selection. Next somebody will be dragging in cht.

Lets try and stay on topic.
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post #81 of 93 Old 05-12-2012, 08:30 AM
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I feel that the op is int the same boat as I was when purchasing subs and trying to get the most sub I could for the money. I don't see that off topic. Also the op seems to be serious about saving money because he listed prices.
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post #82 of 93 Old 05-12-2012, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otk View Post

cherry coke zero

and the cap s2 looks very interesting

Now that would be very interesting but even more costly!
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post #83 of 93 Old 05-12-2012, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Now that would be very interesting but even more costly!

with all the subs you have been through, do you have a preference with regards to sealed vs. ported ?

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post #84 of 93 Old 05-12-2012, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

It does, but they are colocated. You don't have the flexibility to separate the drivers to help remove nulls, peaks etc. like you would with two FV15HPs.

And yes, great problem to have!

Yes, if that's possible that's a better solution for some. For some there's two Subm, or even more. For some one sub can be the only viable option and the dual drivers can help out in balancing the sound for the room. I'm somewhat in that position in that there's not a great place to put a second sub, so I struggle with a single Empire.

Yes, such problems!

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post #85 of 93 Old 05-12-2012, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otk View Post


with all the subs you have been through, do you have a preference with regards to sealed vs. ported ?

With my room, sealed digs much deeper. I have the luxury of some serious room gain below 20hz. I can make a sealed sub system sound much stronger than a ported sub in the teens by adding a shelf filter and boost under 20hz. If I can only buy one sub, due to room placement, it would be a horn or ported sub with lots of spl and the lowest tune possible, like the DTS-10. The JTR OS comes to mind as well. Having said that one could always stack 3-4 sealed subs on top of each other and get better results.
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post #86 of 93 Old 05-14-2012, 08:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nezff View Post

I know you have listed these particular subs I'm assuming because everyone here is "doing" it. Before I bought my dual sub setup, I looked at the sub M and the caps. I liked both except for the price tags. I know I know, subs arent cheap, but WOW. Long story short, I got two 18 inch ported subs each with a 1300 watt amp for about what you will pay for ONE SubM. If you just love the speaker power amp, get one of those. I looked into getting one of them to power both subs. Of course those are also outrageous in price too.

If you need some more specifics, pm me.

I considered throwing an ED A7-450 in there to compete more directly with the Rythmik but I haven't heard or read enough about them. I haven't heard any of these choices. Again, this is a thought experiment and an attempt to gather opinions. I have no intention to take action in the near future. I don't need a reference level capable system.
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post #87 of 93 Old 05-14-2012, 08:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

With my room, sealed digs much deeper. I have the luxury of some serious room gain below 20hz. I can make a sealed sub system sound much stronger than a ported sub in the teens by adding a shelf filter and boost under 20hz. If I can only buy one sub, due to room placement, it would be a horn or ported sub with lots of spl and the lowest tune possible, like the DTS-10. The JTR OS comes to mind as well. Having said that one could always stack 3-4 sealed subs on top of each other and get better results.

So your post and one from another smart guy earlier suggests that sealed subs can produce higher SPL at lower frequencies than ported subs because of limitations port tuning. I'm not exactly sure how port tuning and Q and all that stuff works, but what kind of compromise in linearity and distortion does a sealed sub operating at lower frequencies have to deal with? Do you use a high pass in your situation to prevent bottoming or distortion? Is high pass even necessary?
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post #88 of 93 Old 05-14-2012, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmichaelf View Post

So your post and one from another smart guy earlier suggests that sealed subs can produce higher SPL at lower frequencies than ported subs because of limitations port tuning. I'm not exactly sure how port tuning and Q and all that stuff works, but what kind of compromise in linearity and distortion does a sealed sub operating at lower frequencies have to deal with? Do you use a high pass in your situation to prevent bottoming or distortion? Is high pass even necessary?

I would not use me as an example because I use many subs to counter act distortion, compression, and I don't use any filters. You need to really define what your goal is, mine was to have a system that can play reference from as low as it could go to 20Khz. All this with little distortion, no compression to preserve all the dynamics, and sounding great. I wanted that big cinema sound as well. So I researched and asked questions and experiemented based on all the conversations and gave my opinion through out the process. I have gone thru many different commercial and DIY designs and even though they had flat responses they had some differences between them but most of it sound the same once EQ'd and dialed in. I also made sure that the LFE system matched the speakers in dynamics which makes a huge difference!
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post #89 of 93 Old 05-14-2012, 10:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I would not use me as an example because I use many subs to counter act distortion, compression, and I don't use any filters. You need to really define what your goal is, mine was to have a system that can play reference from as low as it could go to 20Khz. All this with little distortion, no compression to preserve all the dynamics, and sounding great. I wanted that big cinema sound as well. So I researched and asked questions and experiemented based on all the conversations and gave my opinion through out the process. I have gone thru many different commercial and DIY designs and even though they had flat responses they had some differences between them but most of it sound the same once EQ'd and dialed in. I also made sure that the LFE system matched the speakers in dynamics which makes a huge difference!

So you addressed the potential problems with high spl in sealed designs with more subs. When I think of "low as it could go" the thigpen rotary comes to mind. Have you considered the $20k spend to reach 4hz at 120dB?
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post #90 of 93 Old 05-14-2012, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmichaelf View Post

So your post and one from another smart guy earlier suggests that sealed subs can produce higher SPL at lower frequencies than ported subs because of limitations port tuning. I'm not exactly sure how port tuning and Q and all that stuff works, but what kind of compromise in linearity and distortion does a sealed sub operating at lower frequencies have to deal with? Do you use a high pass in your situation to prevent bottoming or distortion? Is high pass even necessary?

A ported subwoofer has efficiency and often maximum output advantages around tuning. At the same time, a port becomes progressively less linear with increasing air-flow (= SPL output). Well before there is audible chuffing, there will be compression. How much compression depends greatly on the design with respect to relative port area, shape and flaring of the port. The primary hurdle for a sealed woofer operating at very low frequencies is the required amplifier power while having enough excursion capability. There are also considerations of how linear the driver is at VLF in the given sealed box size. Generally you will end up seeing more 2nd & 3rd harmonic distortion at very low frequencies in a sealed box, while they tend to have less compression until the amplifier and then woofer limits. In-room, the gain which allows for extension often into the single digit range helps with the observed in-room % distortion and audibility of it, as the increasing gain at lower frequencies increases the intended signal more than any distortion products being produced.

Every option has compromises. The real question is how they balance out vs. the priorities and your specific application.

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