The Official "Can It Measure Well and Not Sound Good Thread?" - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 195 Old 05-13-2012, 02:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Some people who profess to test subwoofers devote hundreds of words trying to describe the sound of subwoofers. Those same people are long on words and short on measurments.

I have repeatedly asked if a subwoofer that measures well can end up not sounding good, all to no avail.

As far as I am concerned subwoofers that meet the following standard will sound good.

(Deep) Extension
(High) Output
Flat Frequency Response
Low Distortion, (especially as output levels rise, and at the lowest frequencies).

In other words Low, Loud, Flat, Clean
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post #2 of 195 Old 05-13-2012, 02:16 PM
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No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #3 of 195 Old 05-13-2012, 02:40 PM
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how low is low? and how deep is deep? and how high is high?

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post #4 of 195 Old 05-13-2012, 02:45 PM
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I bet there are additional measurements to consider. Decay and delay come to mind as quantifiables that directly relate to the quality of a sub's sound.

Once again, I am sorry to take a sledgehammer to so small and fragile a nut. -- Richard Dawkins, The Greatest Show On Earth
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post #5 of 195 Old 05-13-2012, 04:03 PM
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post #6 of 195 Old 05-13-2012, 04:22 PM
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While I understand the question being asked here and do believe that measured #'s can very definitely tell a story of what a product is doing, I also feel that a subjective review of what the product sounds like, how it is built, how it looks, etc. can be very helpful to those who are not really into #'s
I also feel that the intent of the question is not very helpful to this forums or it's subscribers.

Lon
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post #7 of 195 Old 05-13-2012, 04:26 PM
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Sorry. There's numbers. Thats why it's called science.

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post #8 of 195 Old 05-13-2012, 06:29 PM
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You can't even come up with an original idea???? How sad is that...

If you take yourself too seriously expect me to do the exact opposite
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post #9 of 195 Old 05-13-2012, 06:39 PM
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I've had many MANY subs and can say with out a doubt, there isn't much difference until you start reaching the limits of that driver, though of course there are some exceptions. People make some pretty funny claims in audio. Most is just sales gimmicks and snake oil. A well made driver should be priority#1

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #10 of 195 Old 05-13-2012, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

You can't even come up with an original idea???? How sad is that...

I think there's another thread made just for your........ Bickering

Audio IS a science. In science measurements are everything.

I enjoy the sound differences in subs just as much as you. Only I'm wise enough to know that there is objective information to be collected before a solid subjective opinion can be delivered.

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post #11 of 195 Old 05-13-2012, 08:13 PM
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The topic has been in my mind for quite some time now, thanks for bringing it up, will be watching this thread.

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post #12 of 195 Old 05-13-2012, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

Audio IS a science. In science measurements are everything.

Glad we didn't stop researching new measurement techniques when science told us the world was flat.
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post #13 of 195 Old 05-13-2012, 08:49 PM
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A sub can measure well and not sound good if the person forming the opinion has no idea what good sound actually is. Many folks are used to crappy boomy subs or bad car systems. When they actually hear accurate, undistorted bass, they think it sound bad.

A sub can also measure well in test reports but then sound bad if it is set up wrong by the consumer. That happens a lot in the crowd that believes they can completely set up their system without measuring anything.
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post #14 of 195 Old 05-14-2012, 08:25 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

I think there's another thread made just for your........ Bickering

Audio IS a science. In science measurements are everything.

I enjoy the sound differences in subs just as much as you. Only I'm wise enough to know that there is objective information to be collected before a solid subjective opinion can be delivered.

Well then why don't you accept that the claims of hearing is infrasound are totally bogus. Going out there spending thousands upon thousands of dollars on subwoofers for that can extend down to 10hz.

I'm for science and that's the problem with this forum, we've gone against science all too often around here.
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post #15 of 195 Old 05-14-2012, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Well then why don't you accept that the claims of hearing is infrasound are totally bogus. Going out there spending thousands upon thousands of dollars on subwoofers for that can extend down to 10hz.

I'm for science and that's the problem with this forum, we've gone against science all too often around here.

Science?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post21373609
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post #16 of 195 Old 05-14-2012, 09:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Science?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post21373609

Exactly!!
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post #17 of 195 Old 05-14-2012, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Exactly!!

Seriously? - Nazi paranormal infrasonics are the foundation of what we are to believe constitutes current subwoofer and auditory science?

As in all of the other times you've raised this, actual science and knowledge of human physiology will not align with your theories.
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post #18 of 195 Old 05-14-2012, 11:39 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Seriously? - Nazi paranormal infrasonics are the foundation of what we are to believe constitutes current subwoofer and auditory science?

As in all of the other times you've raised this, actual science and knowledge of human physiology will not align with your theories.

First of all, it is true that Nazi expirimented with infrasounds and how there affect on human beings.

Infrasounds have been studied not only by the Nazi, but by Russians, British and Americans. The affects of infrasounds are not paranormal. Just because I cited from a paranormal cite doesn't mean what I argued isn't true.

The fact that Nazi expiremented with infrasounds makes me tend to believe there are some adverse affects of sustained exposure to infrasounds.

For example, check out the below cited commentary:

"On May 31, 2003, a team of UK researchers held a mass experiment where they exposed some 700 people to music laced with soft 17 Hz sine waves played at a level described as "near the edge of hearing", produced by an extra-long stroke sub-woofer mounted two-thirds of the way from the end of a seven-meter-long plastic sewer pipe. The experimental concert (entitled Infrasonic) took place in the Purcell Room over the course of two performances, each consisting of four musical pieces. Two of the pieces in each concert had 17 Hz tones played underneath. In the second concert, the pieces that were to carry a 17 Hz undertone were swapped so that test results would not focus on any specific musical piece. The participants were not told which pieces included the low-level 17 Hz near-infrasonic tone. The presence of the tone resulted in a significant number (22%) of respondents reporting anxiety, uneasiness, extreme sorrow, nervous feelings of revulsion or fear, chills down the spine and feelings of pressure on the chest. In presenting the evidence to British Association for the Advancement of Science, Professor Richard Wiseman said, "These results suggest that low frequency sound can cause people to have unusual experiences even though they cannot consciously detect infrasound. Some scientists have suggested that this level of sound may be present at some allegedly haunted sites and so cause people to have odd sensations that they attribute to a ghost—our findings support these ideas."

Sorry if I've taken this thread off course, I just had to defend my position here.
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post #19 of 195 Old 05-14-2012, 11:51 AM
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Have you ever owned a sub capable of going below 30hz Auditor55?
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post #20 of 195 Old 05-14-2012, 12:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

Have you ever owned a sub capable of going below 30hz Auditor55?

Yes. Why do you ask?
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post #21 of 195 Old 05-14-2012, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Yes. Why do you ask?

Because you seem to have this need to turn every thread into an argument about how low should a sub go.
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post #22 of 195 Old 05-14-2012, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

Because you seem to have this need to turn every thread into an argument about how low should a sub go.

He's right, Auditor. You've gone and done just exactly that once again. It makes you sound very much like a guy who goes around defending some sort of inadequacy. Not all subwoofer discussions are about how deep your hearing extends.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Well then why don't you accept that the claims of hearing is infrasound are totally bogus. Going out there spending thousands upon thousands of dollars on subwoofers for that can extend down to 10hz.

I'm for science and that's the problem with this forum, we've gone against science all too often around here.

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post #23 of 195 Old 05-15-2012, 05:18 AM
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Quote:


(Deep) Extension
(High) Output
Flat Frequency Response
Low Distortion, (especially as output levels rise, and at the lowest frequencies).


How low?

How much output?

Flat to what frequency?

Flat in room, or flat in an anechoic chamber?

A sealed sub may roll off much higher than a ported sub in anechoic or 2M GP testing. Does that mean it won't sound good as it won't be flat to 18/20hz? Or won't sound as good as a ported sub? Even if in many rooms a sealed system will be easier to make "flat"?

What do output and a low frequency extension have to do with "Sound Quality"? Can't you have a sub that sounds great down to 30hz (its limits) and when not pushed to reference levels?

Quote:


The Official "Can It Measure Well and Not Sound Good Thread?"

Sound good to whom?

 

My DIY Subs ... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1233892

Quote:

J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

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post #24 of 195 Old 05-15-2012, 05:36 AM
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In my room a JTR Captivator and Seaton Submersive had a different sound even when they were calibrated the same with the same eq etc.

Even at low volumes I could tell the difference. There may have been other factors that I'm not aware of that made them sound different but if they had sounded the same I would have not made a switch.

I know that doesn't answer the OP's question, neither sub sounded bad when eq'd flat. My point is that they didn't sound the same.
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post #25 of 195 Old 05-15-2012, 05:54 AM
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The most important question for this thread is: to what extent can measurements tell you about how a subwoofer sounds?

Yes, the graph can tell you performance parameters like how low it can go, how loud it can play, how much distortion it has, etc. From there you can make an educated estimation of how it sounds and you can even put forward a general theory that a subwoofer that measures better will sound better than a subwoofer that doesn't measure as well.

But the charts and graphs still cannot fully describe how it actually sounds. Take 2 subs that have been measured by Ricci - FV15HP and PB13 Ultra. All the performance data is there - but how do they sound? I've heard both and they do sound different - now which graph can explain to me the differences I heard in terms of tightness, articulation, tactility, etc?

I believe there are things the graphs can tell you, and things they can't.
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post #26 of 195 Old 05-15-2012, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jchong View Post

The most important question for this thread is: to what extent can measurements tell you about how a subwoofer sounds?

Yes, the graph can tell you performance parameters like how low it can go, how loud it can play, how much distortion it has, etc. From there you can make an educated estimation of how it sounds and you can even put forward a general theory that a subwoofer that measures better will sound better than a subwoofer that doesn't measure as well.

But the charts and graphs still cannot fully describe how it actually sounds. Take 2 subs that have been measured by Ricci - FV15HP and PB13 Ultra. All the performance data is there - but how do they sound? I've heard both and they do sound different - now which graph can explain to me the differences I heard in terms of tightness, articulation, tactility, etc?

I believe there are things the graphs can tell you, and things they can't.

I agree, that's what I was trying to say and failed.
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post #27 of 195 Old 05-15-2012, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldno711 View Post

Glad we didn't stop researching new measurement techniques when science told us the world was flat.

Actually, it was the exact opposite. People said the world was flat and scientific measurements were what disproved what people widely held to be true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

"On May 31, 2003, a team of UK researchers held a mass experiment where they exposed some 700 people to music laced with soft 17 Hz sine waves played at a level described as "near the edge of hearing", produced by an extra-long stroke sub-woofer mounted two-thirds of the way from the end of a seven-meter-long plastic sewer pipe. The experimental concert (entitled Infrasonic) took place in the Purcell Room over the course of two performances, each consisting of four musical pieces. Two of the pieces in each concert had 17 Hz tones played underneath. In the second concert, the pieces that were to carry a 17 Hz undertone were swapped so that test results would not focus on any specific musical piece. The participants were not told which pieces included the low-level 17 Hz near-infrasonic tone. The presence of the tone resulted in a significant number (22%) of respondents reporting anxiety, uneasiness, extreme sorrow, nervous feelings of revulsion or fear, chills down the spine and feelings of pressure on the chest. In presenting the evidence to British Association for the Advancement of Science, Professor Richard Wiseman said, "These results suggest that low frequency sound can cause people to have unusual experiences even though they cannot consciously detect infrasound. Some scientists have suggested that this level of sound may be present at some allegedly haunted sites and so cause people to have odd sensations that they attribute to a ghostour findings support these ideas."

Sorry if I've taken this thread off course, I just had to defend my position here.

I think it actually does the opposite. You have long argued that there was no need for subs capable of producing sound below 20Hz or so. This proves that those frequencies do have an impact. When in real life do you hear those frequencies? Explosions, earthquakes, building collapses, collisions, etc. right? Don't you expect to feel one or more of those reactions if you were there? So wouldn't being able to reproduce those frequencies be beneficial to feeling more immersed in the movie during those types of scenes? I would think so.

Now back on topic. IMO, the only way a sub can sound bad if it measures well is if the measurements were not taken in room. If I were to buy a sub that measured well by someone in there environment and take it home only to find it sounded like crap I can't blame the sub unless I have the same setup as the person who took the measurements. My room would have to be made the same with the same dimensions, furnishings and treatments while using the same components that measure the same or close enough. Only then can I say the measurements are valid. Subs will measure differently in every room. Room acoustics play a significant role in how a sub sounds.

The second reason a sub may not sound good if it measures well is due to preference and what the listener is accustomed to. As had been mentioned before, some people are used to distorted, boomy, bloated base. When they first hear clean bass, they are not used to it and think it sounds thin and lacks fullness.

One more note. Sounding different doesn't necessarily mean they don't sound good.
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post #28 of 195 Old 05-15-2012, 08:08 AM
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So what sub should I buy for under $500 for aparently a very large room. Scientically speaking of course. Hehehe.
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post #29 of 195 Old 05-15-2012, 09:46 AM
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Psychoacoustics is the scientific study of sound perception. More specifically, it is the branch of science studying the psychological and physiological responses associated with sound (including speech and music). It can be further categorized as a branch of psychophysics.

The above is from wikepedia.
I would think as measurement technology increases the research that takes place with regards to our hearing and perception along with room analysis software and hardware should provide us with more information regarding the effects of infrasonic sounds and the impact upon humans.
Music has an effect on our nervous system, different types of music having different types of effects. It stands to reason that very low frequencies as well as very high frequencies may also have an effect.
The physiological responses should be measurable, it would be interesting if any of our forum members are aware of and can share research papers and/or findings of what has been measured and how.
As to the psychological effects and the measurements, well, someone with more exposure to that topic may wish to weigh in and give us some insight as to if there has been much research done to determine effects of sound upon humans.

A most interesting thread.
I really look forward to what the future brings us as far as our ability to reproduce sounds in our homes.

One comment on the topic of subs and their measurements and their sounds.
I think once you get one or two capable subs properly set up in your room, what you begin to hear is not the subs themselves but what has been recorded AND how well it was recorded. Once I moved to studio monitors I began to hear more of how the source was recorded as opposed to how the speaker was coloring the sound. Can we assume then that once we have the equivalent of studio monitor quality subs that we begin to hear into the recording and not the sub? One would hope this is true.

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post #30 of 195 Old 05-16-2012, 12:17 PM
 
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I think it actually does the opposite. You have long argued that there was no need for subs capable of producing sound below 20Hz or so. This proves that those frequencies do have an impact. When in real life do you hear those frequencies? Explosions, earthquakes, building collapses, collisions, etc. right? Don't you expect to feel one or more of those reactions if you were there? So wouldn't being able to reproduce those frequencies be beneficial to feeling more immersed in the movie during those types of scenes? I would think so.

Yes they do have an impact, but the evidence seems to indicate an adverse impact.

I said the below 20hz have more to do with feeling than hearing and that a smal percentage source material contain below 20 hz content which makes purchasing subs for that reason impractical.
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