Keep 2 DD-15's or sell and get Seaton Sub HP or DD-18+? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 24 Old 05-28-2012, 05:28 PM - Thread Starter
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The sad truth is that I don't think any 1 or 2 subs will help me. I'm renting a house for the next year so the house I'm in is what it is. The living room is also the serving as a HT area. It's about 17x20 and has an archway leading to the dining room which leads to the kitchen and another open area. Another archway leads to the bedrooms and bathroom. It seems like I'm asking the dual DD's to pressurize the whole house. I'm not sure any sub can. I don't have the space or layout for quads and due to space limitations have the DD's on either side of the TV.

I've read nothing but good things about Submersive which with a black piano finish would run about $2800. The downside is that I'd have no real knowledge as to how to EQ a sub other than Audyssey and truth be told, I don't really want to be obsessed with subs. No offense meant and all due respect but I'm having a hard enough time keeping up with my industry.

The Velodyne DD-18+ is $4700 and all I got to do is self eq run Audyssey and go enjoy.

Any opinions will be welcome. The Seaton looks to be the better value and I suppose I could learn to use Anti-mode or some software but just don’t have a real level of commitment to learning how to read graphs or acheive a FR and can't use bass traps, etc.

Just being honest about where I’m at.

Thanks!
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post #2 of 24 Old 05-28-2012, 05:46 PM
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Learning to use an Anti-Mode 8033 should definitely not be a roadblock. That unit is pure simplicity.

As for a sub, I'm not sure I could bring myself to trade dual DD-15s for a single DD-18+. For that same price I would compromise on the premium Submersive finish, buy 2 HPs with an Anti-Mode and call it a day. That would be a serious upgrade.
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post #3 of 24 Old 05-28-2012, 07:03 PM
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I think what you have right now is very good. Dual DD-15s is nothing to take for granted. I suggest you make sure you are utilizing what you have before thinking about getting something else. The key, with a sub or any other speaker, is placement. If you don't have good placement, you will not get a good result regardless of what you have Velodyne, Paradigm, Submersive, Captivator, etc.
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post #4 of 24 Old 05-28-2012, 07:14 PM - Thread Starter
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I really appreciate he both of you taking the time to reply. Placement is not optimal. It's a tough situation in regards to setting every thing up.
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post #5 of 24 Old 05-28-2012, 07:18 PM
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Personally I would keep your current DD15's. They are GREAT subs! Since pressurizing the space will require more subs than you can impliment, you may as well take advantage of the world-class SQ and freqency smoothing that using (2) DD15's will achieve over a single SubM or DD18+.
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post #6 of 24 Old 05-28-2012, 09:19 PM
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I agree with the others 2 DD15's are very good subs by anybodies standard and you say you are only going to be there a year.
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post #7 of 24 Old 05-28-2012, 09:33 PM
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going from your 2 x DD15's to a submersive is kinda a side move. Getting 2 submersives, now thats a freaking upgrade!! lol

the DD18 is an overpriced sub to say the least.

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #8 of 24 Old 05-28-2012, 11:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks everyone for helping to give me perspective. I did some research and discovered that Anti-mode is a device put in the chain. That should be simple enough.
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post #9 of 24 Old 05-29-2012, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glashub View Post

Thanks everyone for helping to give me perspective. I did some research and discovered that Anti-mode is a device put in the chain. That should be simple enough.

The issue with the AntiMode is which model you should get. The new AntiMode Dual Core can provide EQ to 2 subwoofers individually but it costs around $1,200. The AntiMode Cinema can't EQ 2 subs separately but costs maybe $400.

bsoko2 recently received the Dual Core and has considerable experience with the less expensive models.

The Dual Core also has a display which the other AntiMode lack.
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post #10 of 24 Old 05-29-2012, 08:27 PM
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Do you already own the 2 velo? What are you lacking?
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post #11 of 24 Old 05-29-2012, 09:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

The issue with the AntiMode is which model you should get. The new AntiMode Dual Core can provide EQ to 2 subwoofers individually but it costs around $1,200. The AntiMode Cinema can't EQ 2 subs separately but costs maybe $400.

bsoko2 recently received the Dual Core and has considerable experience with the less expensive models.

The Dual Core also has a display which the other AntiMode lack.

Thanks for the info and pricing spyboy. That is one thing i was having trouble finding...pricing.
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post #12 of 24 Old 05-29-2012, 09:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by datranz View Post

Do you already own the 2 velo? What are you lacking?

Yep, I own the Velo's. That's a good question regarding what I'm missing. Truth be told, maybe not much and maybe I've been reading too many threads about the Submersive and the DD pluses. The dual Velos don't seem to be giving all that's there in movies with sub 20hz bass. Sometimes I think it could be Audyssey and the way it blends a sub in and that maybe I should just run the subs a little hotter even tbough there seems to be a little more "chestiness" to voices than what I'm accustomed to.
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post #13 of 24 Old 05-30-2012, 04:24 AM
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Hi Glashub,

you aren't really going a bad way by listening to dual DD15s, but from all I've heard and read going to SubM HPs might be a significant upgrade. Two SubM HPs provide much more power and twice the driver area than dual DD15s and come for almost half the price. They should also outperform one DD18+ in all manners such as SQ, price and bang for the buck.
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post #14 of 24 Old 05-30-2012, 05:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glashub View Post

Yep, I own the Velo's. That's a good question regarding what I'm missing. Truth be told, maybe not much and maybe I've been reading too many threads about the Submersive and the DD pluses. The dual Velos don't seem to be giving all that's there in movies with sub 20hz bass. Sometimes I think it could be Audyssey and the way it blends a sub in and that maybe I should just run the subs a little hotter even tbough there seems to be a little more "chestiness" to voices than what I'm accustomed to.

The DD-15s have no problem digging down below 20Hz. I have heard, numerous times, that using Audyssey has caused the bass to be lacking. I really don't know if that's true because I don't use Audyssey. Anyway, you can try several things:
1) Turn the volume up on your sub. This may throw off your calibration.
2) Turn off Audyssey and listen for a while to determine if the bass is better.
3) Determine if you are sitting in a null spot. If this is the problem, you will need to relocate your listening position. This could mean only moving a few inches to the left, right, front, or back.
4) Determine if your subs are located in the best positions and are not canceling each other out. If this is the problem, then you will always have this problem regardless of what subs you own.
5) Check your sub's EQ. If the subs are properly EQed, then Audyssey really shouldn't be doing anything to the bass.
6) Look into getting some Room Treatments for your room if that's possible. This will help with nulls and peaks to a certain point like maybe down to 60Hz. After that you have to look into really thick Room Treatments to deal with the lower frequencies; but, that's where the EQ kicks in.

I hope this was helpful.
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post #15 of 24 Old 05-30-2012, 06:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glashub View Post

Yep, I own the Velo's. That's a good question regarding what I'm missing. Truth be told, maybe not much and maybe I've been reading too many threads about the Submersive and the DD pluses. The dual Velos don't seem to be giving all that's there in movies with sub 20hz bass. Sometimes I think it could be Audyssey and the way it blends a sub in and that maybe I should just run the subs a little hotter even tbough there seems to be a little more "chestiness" to voices than what I'm accustomed to.

If you are using Audyssey with dual subs, you'll want to check the Distance settings for the subs to optimize the response around the crossover. I have checked quite a few dual sub systems that use Audyssey, and it is very common for the Distance setting to be less than optimal. This causes a recession around the crossover point, which makes the sub system sound weak and thin.

You can use the EQ software built into your DD subs to check the response. If there is a dip around the crossover point, use the Subwoofer Distance setting in the receiver or pre/pro to correct it. Here is a post I made which describes this process with measurements: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post19450333

Craig

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Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

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post #16 of 24 Old 05-30-2012, 08:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja12 View Post

The DD-15s have no problem digging down below 20Hz. I have heard, numerous times, that using Audyssey has caused the bass to be lacking. I really don't know if that's true because I don't use Audyssey. Anyway, you can try several things:
1) Turn the volume up on your sub. This may throw off your calibration.
2) Turn off Audyssey and listen for a while to determine if the bass is better.
3) Determine if you are sitting in a null spot. If this is the problem, you will need to relocate your listening position. This could mean only moving a few inches to the left, right, front, or back.
4) Determine if your subs are located in the best positions and are not canceling each other out. If this is the problem, then you will always have this problem regardless of what subs you own.
5) Check your sub's EQ. If the subs are properly EQed, then Audyssey really shouldn't be doing anything to the bass.
6) Look into getting some Room Treatments for your room if that's possible. This will help with nulls and peaks to a certain point like maybe down to 60Hz. After that you have to look into really thick Room Treatments to deal with the lower frequencies; but, that's where the EQ kicks in.

I hope this was helpful.

Yes, you certainly have been most helpful. It couldn't have been easy to sit and write out these detailed suggestions when I'm guessing there might have been other things you might've preferred doing with the time. Thank you.
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post #17 of 24 Old 05-30-2012, 08:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

If you are using Audyssey with dual subs, you'll want to check the Distance settings for the subs to optimize the response around the crossover. I have checked quite a few dual sub systems that use Audyssey, and it is very common for the Distance setting to be less than optimal. This causes a recession around the crossover point, which makes the sub system sound weak and thin.

You can use the EQ software built into your DD subs to check the response. If there is a dip around the crossover point, use the Subwoofer Distance setting in the receiver or pre/pro to correct it. Here is a post I made which describes this process with measurements: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post19450333

Craig

Craig, thanks for the tip. Audyssey never gets the distance right but it seems the Audyssey folks claim it compensates for delay (if I remember correctly). I'll check it out this out this weekend. Really like the quote by the way.
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post #18 of 24 Old 05-30-2012, 08:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dustcap View Post

Hi Glashub,

you aren't really going a bad way by listening to dual DD15s, but from all I've heard and read going to SubM HPs might be a significant upgrade. Two SubM HPs provide much more power and twice the driver area than dual DD15s and come for almost half the price. They should also outperform one DD18+ in all manners such as SQ, price and bang for the buck.

Thanks Dustcap. People love their Seatons don't they?
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post #19 of 24 Old 05-30-2012, 10:30 AM
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Glashub,
You're getting excellent advice in this thread. Even though I really respect N8Dogg's contributions to the forum I respectfully disagree that dual DD15's can keep up with a single Submersive HP in output and extension.
I've owned a DD15 years ago. Excellent sound quality without a doubt but it definitely had less than half the output of a Submersive HP.

That said I still think you should optimize what you have with the excellent advice above. If you are only going to be in that large open space for a year then it doesn't make sense to chase more output (and extension) until you know what type of space you will be in for the long haul. If you will eventually be in a smaller sealed space you probably wouldn't need more subwoofage than what you have now.
Optimize what you have now and if possible consider symmetric nearfield placement.
If you already know your next space will also be open and large then go ahead and sell the DD15's and get a Submersive HP or two.
Good luck.
Tim

Edit: I just realized there may be another perspective to N8Dogg's post. Maybe he means the single HP could give more output and extension than dual DD15's but would sacrifice the frequency smoothing and bigger sweet spot duals provide. If so I wholeheartedly agree.
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post #20 of 24 Old 05-30-2012, 11:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the great advice Tim. Just so I'm clear...you think 1 HP would trump the 2 Velos in an open space like mine all things being equal? And here's a thought....would the Velos blend with a Seaton?
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post #21 of 24 Old 05-30-2012, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glashub View Post

Thanks for the great advice Tim. Just so I'm clear...you think 1 HP would trump the 2 Velos in an open space like mine all things being equal? And here's a thought....would the Velos blend with a Seaton?

I think a single HP would have more output and extension than the DD15's but if you're listening habits are such that you don't experience output compression with your Velos then you may not feel the tradeoff is a favorable one.
If you like to sometimes crank it up (especially with modern movies) then an HP makes more sense. If you have tame listening habits or are mainly music then sticking with the dual DD15's makes more sense than a single HP.
As far as integrating them it may not be too difficult since they are both sealed. Dual Velos flanking your LP nearfield with the SubM in the front soundstage might be nice. Mark Seaton would be able to help you with that much better than I.
Tim
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post #22 of 24 Old 05-31-2012, 05:31 PM - Thread Starter
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What the hell is a "LP nearfield"? Tried searching that and am nore confused. I'm assuming you mean the Velos in back and the HP in front?
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post #23 of 24 Old 05-31-2012, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glashub View Post

What the hell is a "LP nearfield"? Tried searching that and am nore confused. I'm assuming you mean the Velos in back and the HP in front?

Nearfield Listening Position

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post #24 of 24 Old 06-01-2012, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Nearfield Listening Position

Thank you!
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