What happens below 30hz and why is it important? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 45 Old 05-31-2012, 05:38 AM - Thread Starter
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So the 2 subs i am looking at PA-150 and Polk PSW505 both go near the 25hz mark but why is under 30hz so important? What does it do for viewing pleaseure with movies or music? How can i tell?
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post #2 of 45 Old 05-31-2012, 05:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TsunamiMike View Post

So the 2 subs i am looking at PA-150 and Polk PSW505 both go near the 25hz mark but why is under 30hz so important? What does it do for viewing pleaseure with movies or music? How can i tell?

Explosions,earthquakes,train wrecks and just about anything with a lot of impact feel and sound more real and some music has info to 20Hz and below not to mention most can hear to at least 20Hz so why not have something that can at least extend to the range of your hearing.
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post #3 of 45 Old 05-31-2012, 05:58 AM
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^^^+1

The feeling of sub 20hz bass is amazing! Almost like adding a 4th dimension to the movie. I never had sub 30hz bass until about 6 months ago... Now I'm running dual Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Pluses, I will never go back to a lesser sub.

Shawn
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post #4 of 45 Old 05-31-2012, 06:13 AM
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I can give you a good example.

Yesterday I just finished integrating two DIY Infinity Kappa 120.9W ported subs. Playing Tron Legacy there is some sub 20Hz content. We couldn't hear it but you sure could feel the couch kick.

You feel that kick and man the smile on your face.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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post #5 of 45 Old 05-31-2012, 06:13 AM
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My first sub was a DefTech ProSub 200TL, rated down to 26Hz @ -3dB. It was a good sub...until I picked up an Energy S10.3 (21Hz @ -3dB) for a buddy and had a chance to demo it against my 200TL. The Energy dug noticeably deeper. I heard content I hadn't previously heard, in both songs and movies.

IMO, getting down to at least 20Hz for movies is very desirable. For music, perhaps not so much, although there is definitely content in the low 20s that a good sub would be able to reproduce and which would add to the overall "sonic experience".

Not sure how you can tell other than to A/B a clip from a movie (the "barrel roll" scene from "Flight of the Phoenix" is a good one) on both a good 30Hz sub and a good 20Hz sub. You'll notice the difference.
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post #6 of 45 Old 05-31-2012, 06:22 AM - Thread Starter
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the above subs, do they deliver well in the 20-30 range to feel the sonic force you are describing?
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post #7 of 45 Old 05-31-2012, 06:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TsunamiMike View Post

the above subs, do they deliver well in the 20-30 range to feel the sonic force you are describing?

The Polk is rated to 28Hz @ -3dB. It won't offer much performance down to the mid- and lower-20s. The PA is rated to 25Hz @ -?dB. If the ? = 3, then you should get satisfying performance in the mid-20s, but not as much in the lower 20s.

Neither sub will offer the kind of performance you'd get from the Outlaw LFM-1 Plus mentioned by flickhtguru, or from other subs in the, say, $500-$700 range, such as the:
- SVS SB12-NSD;
- Epik Legend;
- Rythmik FV12; and
- SSA Rumba 12.
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post #8 of 45 Old 05-31-2012, 06:26 AM - Thread Starter
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but would the Energy be a viable option in a larger room? or gret lost in the shuffle of a 15x36' w 8' ceiling?
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post #9 of 45 Old 05-31-2012, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TsunamiMike View Post

but would the Energy be a viable option in a larger room? or gret lost in the shuffle of a 15x36' w 8' ceiling?

A single S10.3 in a room that size would be insufficient. Duals would be better. But there's only so much you can do with a budget of $400 or less in a ~4,300 cu.ft. room.
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post #10 of 45 Old 05-31-2012, 06:45 AM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YpXIFfScAU

ultra low frequencies matter a lot!

Two 10" subs won't do a darn thing for that big a room in the sub 30hz range.

For a 4,300 cubic foot room you are going to want at minimum two typical 15" or 18" subwoofers if you really want to truly experience the ULF. (there are exceptions of course - like the SVS PB13 Ultra) -- but you aren't talking "cheap" exceptions...

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post #11 of 45 Old 05-31-2012, 06:49 AM
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People tend to skip on the sub budget in large rooms either do to WAF or lack of knowledge they spend more on the TV,Speakers and AVR then assign the lowest part of their budget to a sub and then notice their system is not matched. Its kinda like having a large home with a small window unit yes it will cool in that one room and not very well while a big central unit will cool the entire house same with a sub small subs will give you bass and some impact if you are practically setting on top of it.
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post #12 of 45 Old 05-31-2012, 07:50 AM
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Sub 30 Hz bass is most apparent (and desirable) with movie soundtracks, as already stated.

Most music doesn't have much sub 30 Hz information, however there are exceptions such as rap/hip hop/electronica-type music. Also, pipe organ music can go down to 16 Hz (in organs with a 32 ft long pipe). The sensation you get from sound below 30 Hz can be quite fun, and add to the realism that your system can produce.

If you have the money to buy good subs with this kind of extension, you'll enjoy the result.

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post #13 of 45 Old 05-31-2012, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DMark1 View Post

Most music doesn't have much sub 30 Hz information, however there are exceptions such as rap/hip hop/electronica-type music. Also, pipe organ music ...

And Loreena McKennitt. I remember demo-ing the S10.3 and hearing bass notes on "The Mummer's Dance" (from "Nights from the Alhambra") I'd never heard/felt before with my DefTech sub. I also remember thinking that it was pretty cool...
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post #14 of 45 Old 05-31-2012, 08:20 AM
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Even older rock such as Lucky Man from ELP had sub 25Hz material.
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post #15 of 45 Old 05-31-2012, 08:22 AM
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To the OP. Let me tell you my story and what will mostly happen to you,

I started out with dual Polk PSW10, I thought I was the $hit. I quickly realized that my towers were playing with more autorithy than my subs. How could this be, my xover was set at 80hz? Then I started reading on AVS that those were better suited for a computer setup at best...also, seeking advice, most folks here were encouraging me to save up and get worthy subs, it fell on dead ears.

Then, I went with dual Bic F12. Wow, what an improvement, much better for movies but, again, like the folks here were saying, not much for music. They were right. Again, folks here encouraged me to save up and get worthy subs, it fell on dead ears.

Being persistant, I opted for dual Premier Acoustic PA-120. Although they didn't provide any more output, they were much more articulate and precise if you will. I stayed with them for a bit as they look nice and were quite capable for their price point. One day I decided to download LFE test sweeps and came to the conclusion that I was missing everything under 25Hz.

I then decided that I didn't want to miss out on the sub 25 Hz as many many movies now include LFE (and ULF) in their audio soundtrack very frequently. So I finally listen to the folks here and save up to get myself worthy subs.

I now have dual SVS PB12-NSD and have 0 regrets in my decision. No, they are not the last word in subs but the value is top notch. I ear and feel content that I never did before when rewatching movies. It even makes boring movies watchable. Even my wife is in it and happy that I purchased them.

Moral, litsen to what the folks here are telling you. If I would have, I probably would have save hundreds of $$$. Budget is budget, I understand, but the satisfaction is worth it and it's nice to put an important part of your system like a subwoofer to rest and stop looking over your shoulder wondering, what if..?

cheers
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post #16 of 45 Old 05-31-2012, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jproy13 View Post

Let me tell you my story ...

That's a good story.
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post #17 of 45 Old 05-31-2012, 08:58 AM
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A very good story. I'm working on acquiring two Hsu VTF15H subs.
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Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

A single S10.3 in a room that size would be insufficient. Duals would be better.

Two are always better than one.
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post #18 of 45 Old 05-31-2012, 10:06 AM
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^^^
yup, unless it's big enough to become the 9th wonder of the world, I can't see myself without duals.
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post #19 of 45 Old 05-31-2012, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jproy13 View Post

To the OP. Let me tell you my story and what will mostly happen to you,

I started out with dual Polk PSW10, I thought I was the $hit. I quickly realized that my towers were playing with more autorithy than my subs. How could this be, my xover was set at 80hz? Then I started reading on AVS that those were better suited for a computer setup at best...also, seeking advice, most folks here were encouraging me to save up and get worthy subs, it fell on dead ears.

Then, I went with dual Bic F12. Wow, what an improvement, much better for movies but, again, like the folks here were saying, not much for music. They were right. Again, folks here encouraged me to save up and get worthy subs, it fell on dead ears.

Being persistant, I opted for dual Premier Acoustic PA-120. Although they didn't provide any more output, they were much more articulate and precise if you will. I stayed with them for a bit as they look nice and were quite capable for their price point. One day I decided to download LFE test sweeps and came to the conclusion that I was missing everything under 25Hz.

I then decided that I didn't want to miss out on the sub 25 Hz as many many movies now include LFE (and ULF) in their audio soundtrack very frequently. So I finally listen to the folks here and save up to get myself worthy subs.

I now have dual SVS PB12-NSD and have 0 regrets in my decision. No, they are not the last word in subs but the value is top notch. I ear and feel content that I never did before when rewatching movies. It even makes boring movies watchable. Even my wife is in it and happy that I purchased them.

Moral, litsen to what the folks here are telling you. If I would have, I probably would have save hundreds of $$$. Budget is budget, I understand, but the satisfaction is worth it and it's nice to put an important part of your system like a subwoofer to rest and stop looking over your shoulder wondering, what if..?

cheers

Very well written jproy13. I read this story over and over again on this site and others. I cringe when I read them. I want to just yell at the OPs for wasting money on inexpensive subwoofers. (no offense Jim Wilson). The budget subs are good when they are placed in smaller rooms so they still have a place on the market.

Hometheatergeek

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post #20 of 45 Old 05-31-2012, 11:25 AM - Thread Starter
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great stories. i am not an audiophile.. I like great sound and bass you can feel but you all have heard of the size of my room...

What is a boy to do?
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post #21 of 45 Old 05-31-2012, 11:28 AM
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Good story JP. I think most of us have been there at one point or another.

After going through what must have been about a dozen subs over the last few years i finally decided to bite the bullet and just go all out. After building my 4pk I could not be happier. Sometimes its just cheaper and easier in the long run to spend the big bucks up front.
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post #22 of 45 Old 05-31-2012, 01:03 PM
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What i really like about bass is that if you start at 80hz and move down octave by octave ( 80hz, 40hz, 20hz, 10hz ) each point offers a little something different. When you can deliver all of them together with little distortion and reasonable SPL, they make the movie experience that much better.

There is alot of talk lately about ULF bass and if its needed. My opinion is shoot for 20hz extension and you will be a happy camper. Should you ever experience ULF below 20hz you can then begin down that road, until then ENJOY !!!!!!!
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post #23 of 45 Old 05-31-2012, 01:46 PM
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Wish it were possible to have a single post stickied. This one deserves it. Great post JP!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jproy13 View Post

To the OP. Let me tell you my story and what will mostly happen to you,

I started out with dual Polk PSW10, I thought I was the $hit. I quickly realized that my towers were playing with more autorithy than my subs. How could this be, my xover was set at 80hz? Then I started reading on AVS that those were better suited for a computer setup at best...also, seeking advice, most folks here were encouraging me to save up and get worthy subs, it fell on dead ears.

Then, I went with dual Bic F12. Wow, what an improvement, much better for movies but, again, like the folks here were saying, not much for music. They were right. Again, folks here encouraged me to save up and get worthy subs, it fell on dead ears.

Being persistant, I opted for dual Premier Acoustic PA-120. Although they didn't provide any more output, they were much more articulate and precise if you will. I stayed with them for a bit as they look nice and were quite capable for their price point. One day I decided to download LFE test sweeps and came to the conclusion that I was missing everything under 25Hz.

I then decided that I didn't want to miss out on the sub 25 Hz as many many movies now include LFE (and ULF) in their audio soundtrack very frequently. So I finally listen to the folks here and save up to get myself worthy subs.

I now have dual SVS PB12-NSD and have 0 regrets in my decision. No, they are not the last word in subs but the value is top notch. I ear and feel content that I never did before when rewatching movies. It even makes boring movies watchable. Even my wife is in it and happy that I purchased them.

Moral, litsen to what the folks here are telling you. If I would have, I probably would have save hundreds of $$$. Budget is budget, I understand, but the satisfaction is worth it and it's nice to put an important part of your system like a subwoofer to rest and stop looking over your shoulder wondering, what if..?

cheers


Jack
 

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post #24 of 45 Old 05-31-2012, 03:06 PM
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well thank you folks. The funny thing is that all that happened within 2 years.

To the OP, I know the feeling. I got my speakers first and had no subs. So in my mind I was thinking "well cheap sub as got to be better than no sub". I really don't think this anymore.

My opinion is that, for movies and gaming at least, that a solid budget set of speakers (Bic, Polk Arx etc...) is much more forgiving than a less capable sub.

Save up! It may take you a while but you'll be happy you did. Watch for B stock sales from Outlaw, HSU, Rythmik, Epik, SVS... Outlaw has some sales from time to time that are very attractive. You can also sign up for their "deal mail".

Cheers
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post #25 of 45 Old 05-31-2012, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jproy13 View Post

To the OP. Let me tell you my story...


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post #26 of 45 Old 05-31-2012, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jproy13 View Post

well thank you folks. The funny thing is that all that happened within 2 years.

To the OP, I know the feeling. I got my speakers first and had no subs. So in my mind I was thinking "well cheap sub as got to be better than no sub". I really don't think this anymore.

My opinion is that, for movies and gaming at least, that a solid budget set of speakers (Bic, Polk Arx etc...) is much more forgiving than a less capable sub.

Save up! It may take you a while but you'll be happy you did. Watch for B stock sales from Outlaw, HSU, Rythmik, Epik, SVS... Outlaw has some sales from time to time that are very attractive. You can also sign up for their "deal mail".

Cheers

I went straight from an htib sub to my outlaws lol. Was considering lava and bic but decided id be wasting money since i had already planned to upgrade one day. Better to go big at that start!

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #27 of 45 Old 05-31-2012, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YpXIFfScAU

ultra low frequencies matter a lot!

Two 10" subs won't do a darn thing for that big a room in the sub 30hz range.

For a 4,300 cubic foot room you are going to want at minimum two typical 15" or 18" subwoofers if you really want to truly experience the ULF. (there are exceptions of course - like the SVS PB13 Ultra) -- but you aren't talking "cheap" exceptions...

You made a video to show these haters out there that ULF is real/matters? This is epic. Man, just think what would happen if you had subs that didn't stop at 15-20hz! Holy cow, how much do you think your screen would shake then?

/Leaves room (wonders if he has been away too long)

/Comes back into room (I love Archaea's passion)

/Leaves room again
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post #28 of 45 Old 05-31-2012, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

You made a video to show these haters out there that ULF is real/matters? This is epic. Man, just think what would happen if you had subs that didn't stop at 15-20hz! Holy cow, how much do you think your screen would shake then?

/Leaves room (wonders if he has been away too long)

/Comes back into room (I love Archaea's passion)

/Leaves room again

/Follows Greg (wonders when Archaea noticed his first note under 20 Hz).

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post #29 of 45 Old 05-31-2012, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

You made a video to show these haters out there that ULF is real/matters? This is epic. Man, just think what would happen if you had subs that didn't stop at 15-20hz! Holy cow, how much do you think your screen would shake then?

/Leaves room (wonders if he has been away too long)

/Comes back into room (I love Archaea's passion)

/Leaves room again


Greg,

Where'd you come from?

Thought you gave up on this place?

You bought your pair of JTR Captivators yet? Just curious since you sure seemed to like these ported monsters (that stop at 15hz) at the blind meet in KC?

I'm not the only one who writes with unabridged enthusiam -- Let me pull an applicable quote direct from your keyboard for the 2012 KC Blind Subwoofer meet.

"This thing dominated music. I really hope it isn’t the Cap Pros because I’m going to be the butt of jokes and feeling stupid for months until Archaea forgets I say this (he won’t). These were BY FAR the best to me for music. Destroyed the music. Perfect. Articulate. Fun. Of course I think they are sealed, because sealed subs are the BEST FOR MUSIC, right? Man, I hope I’m right on at least that. Did I mention these absolutely "beast mode" the music?"

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...0&postcount=36

Then -- there was something about you grabbing me by the shoulders and begging me to tell you what Sub B was in advance of the results postings because you thought they sounded "4x's better" than anything else you heard that day during the music sessions?

BTW - Where's my steak dinner? You avoided me last visit to KC. Cheapskate.




In answer to your jab and the potential actual question associated for those new to the game -
I believe and have experienced that ULF only matters to the point of your hearing limits. I stop hearing at about 16 or 17hz, and so 15 or 20hz ported subwoofer tunes suite me just fine. I've yet to experience anything at 7, 8, 10hz on clips like the Black Hawk Down - Irene helicopter rotors, HTTYD, or WOTW unique to a sealed subwoofer as compared to a quality ported or horn. I just doesn't do a darn thing for me. Perhaps if I had a setup like kryptonitewhite, I would be able to feel those tones, but unless you have eight 18's you aren't going to feel that. And even if you feel it in single test tones it won't be present in real world material because real world material has frequencies that you can hear which will mask the ones you can't. If you want more tactile feedback - turn it up! Heck I've not felt anything special with ten 15's on five Submersive HPs in counsil's theater. I'd like to feel it, and I reserve the right to change my opinion -- But I've sure not felt it yet. If you've got it now with your DIY setup invite me back to Omaha, and I'll give it a go. Heck, I'll even bring my Captivators back over with my new Crown XLS-5000 for a round two!

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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post #30 of 45 Old 05-31-2012, 08:12 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Fontana, CA
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^^^^^

That's awesome! lol Sorry Greg, don't think these guys will ever let ya live that one down

As for that BHD scene, 4 LMS's will definitely let ya feel what's going on there. The heli's rotor blades just hit ya oh so hard!
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