My upgrade to the Ken Kreisel MX-5000 Mk3 subs - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 208 Old 06-18-2012, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Dav1dF View Post

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Originally Posted by Jay1 
You guys dont seem to understand the basics of how a subwoofer works, and the relevance of the driver size, power, and enclosure configuration, which specifically tell what the sub is capable of doing. I can give two craps about KK, I DIY my own subs and speakers. I respect the manufacturers that offer high level performance for the money, and question the ones who dont.
Well seeing as you've never heard one of Ken's new subs, I suggest you try one and then come back and post your findings, rather than unfairly damning his products before any reviews appear.

You guys just seem to concentrate on the basics and dismiss everything else.

uh, yea... cuz if "the basics" are not fulfilled "everything else" doesn't matter....

jay's post is dead on...

your post encapsulates the issue in this thread... there are those who "know how these things work", and they are inclined to question a claim that isn't quite kosher... then there are those who are "know differently", and are willing to accept (and defend) a specious claim....

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 


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post #92 of 208 Old 06-18-2012, 08:41 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

ummm... in your first post, you certainly implied very strongly that you had measurement equipment (and had used it) that was accurate to 10hz...
you then admitted (after asked to provide those results), that you don't have anything to post...
from those two posts, a rather strong conclusion can be drawn...
to quote one of my favorite philosophers (since i already referenced a different one earlier in this thread)...
"a grown man made a wager... he lost... he made another wager... he lost again.... end of story..."...

So just because I am unable to post something, it automatically makes me a liar? Grow up FFS!!
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post #93 of 208 Old 06-18-2012, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by mjf_uk View Post

So just because I am unable to post something, it automatically makes me a liar? Grow up FFS!!
If you need assistance on how to post something like a graph that you obtained, folks can help you out. If all you have is the raw data (frequency vs. level) just post a table of the values. If you're no longer in possession of either, you could always rerun the measurements. Otherwise, just post what sort of equipment you used and the approach you took along with the room size/type.

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post #94 of 208 Old 06-18-2012, 09:29 AM
 
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Don't need any assistance thanks. smile.gif
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post #95 of 208 Old 06-19-2012, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

uh, yea... cuz if "the basics" are not fulfilled "everything else" doesn't matter....
jay's post is dead on...
your post encapsulates the issue in this thread... there are those who "know how these things work", and they are inclined to question a claim that isn't quite kosher... then there are those who are "know differently", and are willing to accept (and defend) a specious claim....
Whether a person knows how a sub works or not, doesn't change the fact that the MX5000 is being written off by people in this thread who haven't even heard it yet. If you're willing to accept test results or a meaningful review to validate Ken's claims, then wait until you've seen one or the other before dismissing it as poor value for money. comments like those made so far are the sort of unfounded comments that get dragged up time and time again by others who have read them and not heard them either.

Frank Harvey Hi-Fi, UK
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post #96 of 208 Old 06-19-2012, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Dav1dF View Post

Whether a person knows how a sub works or not, doesn't change the fact that the MX5000 is being written off by people in this thread who haven't even heard it yet. If you're willing to accept test results or a meaningful review to validate Ken's claims, then wait until you've seen one or the other before dismissing it as poor value for money. comments like those made so far are the sort of unfounded comments that get dragged up time and time again by others who have read them and not heard them either.
With all due respect, Ken's performance claims, which are found at the bottom of the product page, are inordinately vague and lack context. It's like saying Usain Bolt ran a sub 9 second 100 meter dash while omitting there was a 45 mph tail wind.

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post #97 of 208 Old 06-19-2012, 01:54 PM
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I would still love to see that! Under 9 seconds even with wind would be awesome!

I have owned the older MX-5000 subs and they did sound really nice but to get the deep stuff I needed more of them and at $2499 a pop it was too much! Even if the newer ones can play louder it has to be at least 6 dBs louder which would put it at 106 dBs at 20hz and I can't see it hitting that mark in a dual sealed design utilizing 12's unless they were built like TC sounds LMSR12's!
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post #98 of 208 Old 06-19-2012, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

With all due respect, Ken's performance claims, which are found at the bottom of the product page, are inordinately vague and lack context. It's like saying Usain Bolt ran a sub 9 second 100 meter dash while omitting there was a 45 mph tail wind.

Chu

I'm not sure how much respect is due to Dav1DF. If you look at this thread in the British AV Forum, David works for Frank Harvey Hi Fi in England and Frank Harvey is the exclusive UK retailer for Ken Kreisel products.


http://www.avforums.com/forums/subwoofers-tactile-transducers/1558456-ken-kreisel-professional-sound-subwoofers-thread-25.html


David has a vested interest in promoting the KK MK5000 MK3 in the USA. If the MX 5000 MK3 does not sell well in the USA, the chances that the KK "revival" will prove successful is greatly diminished. Although sales in Asia and Europe may keep the doors open.

I feel that David has been disengenuous in not revealing here on AVS that he sells the MX5000 MK3 in England. His statement about performance is much more suspect now.
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post #99 of 208 Old 06-19-2012, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater 
I have owned the older MX-5000 subs and they did sound really nice but to get the deep stuff I needed more of them and at $2499 a pop it was too much! Even if the newer ones can play louder it has to be at least 6 dBs louder which would put it at 106 dBs at 20hz and I can't see it hitting that mark in a dual sealed design utilizing 12's unless they were built like TC sounds LMSR12's!
Well, we'll know when someone measures or reviews them wont we? smile.gif

Frank Harvey Hi-Fi, UK
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post #100 of 208 Old 06-19-2012, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Dav1dF View Post

Well, we'll know when someone measures or reviews them wont we? smile.gif

The fact that the MK3 weighs only 86 pounds doesn't speak well for its prospects, nor does the meager 800 watt amp which has to handle 2 drivers. The MK3 is going to be amp limited at some frequencies. The MX 5000 THX weighed 115 pounds. Maybe the new amps are digital which would save some weight, but even so, the heavy hitters weight considerably more than 86 pounds.

How about revealing that you are a salesman for Frank Harvey Hi Fi in England and that Harvey is the sole distributor for the KK subs in the UK?
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post #101 of 208 Old 06-19-2012, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

David has a vested interest in promoting the KK MK5000 MK3 in the USA. If the MX 5000 MK3 does not sell well in the USA, the chances that the KK "revival" will prove successful is greatly diminished. Although sales in Asia and Europe may keep the doors open.
How do I have a vested interest for KK on a US forum?! I doubt very much the success of Ken's company will be affected by the US market.
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I feel that David has been disengenuous in not revealing here on AVS that he sells the MX5000 MK3 in England. His statement about performance is much more suspect now.
I've not covered up who I am - I have the same log in name as I do on AVF! Well done Poirot! I'm wondering how my statements about the product are suspect seeing as I have actually heard the product, unlike those who are running it down without even learning anything at all about the product.

I joined up here ages ago, but got involved recently after the unfair slagging off that Ken's subs were getting. I'm quite disgusted at how you guys treat products that you've never heard!

Frank Harvey Hi-Fi, UK
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post #102 of 208 Old 06-19-2012, 02:24 PM
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How do I have a vested interest for KK on a US forum?! I doubt very much the success of Ken's company will be affected by the US market.
I've not covered up who I am - I have the same log in name as I do on AVF! Well done Poirot! I'm wondering how my statements about the product are suspect seeing as I have actually heard the product, unlike those who are running it down without even learning anything at all about the product.
I joined up here ages ago, but got involved recently after the unfair slagging off that Ken's subs were getting. I'm quite disgusted at how you guys treat products that you've never heard!

You are what we call a "shill" or pitchman here in the USA, and as such you have virtually no credibility.
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post #103 of 208 Old 06-19-2012, 02:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

The fact that the MK3 weighs only 86 pounds doesn't speak well for its prospects, nor does the meager 800 watt amp which has to handle 2 drivers. The MK3 is going to be amp limited at some frequencies. The MX 5000 THX weighed 115 pounds. Maybe the new amps are digital which would save some weight, but even so, the heavy hitters weight considerably more than 86 pounds.

More assumptions. How lame. The performance of the MX-5000 Mk3 is way ahead of the of the previous models. But then you haven't heard one, so you wouldn't know.
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post #104 of 208 Old 06-19-2012, 02:33 PM
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Way above the older models in what way?
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post #105 of 208 Old 06-19-2012, 02:36 PM
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Did you own the original mx5000?
Not you mk, you've own everything lol
Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk 2

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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Way above the older models in what way?

Cleaner, tighter, more controlled, and go lower with higher output.
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post #107 of 208 Old 06-19-2012, 02:43 PM
 
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Did you own the original mx5000?
Not you mk, you've own everything lol
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I haven't owned one, but did have one on loan to compare to the MX-350 MkII. So yes I do have experience of it.
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post #108 of 208 Old 06-19-2012, 02:43 PM
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Cleaner, tighter, more controlled, and go lower with higher output.

The threshold of hearing at 10Hz is 100db. We've seen absolutely nothing that indicates that the MK 3 can produce that output. Just specious claims without any back-up rolleyes.gif
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post #109 of 208 Old 06-19-2012, 02:49 PM
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I assumed that already, many other subs do it too(sound better than the older sub), it is at what levels that matter and for how much.
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post #110 of 208 Old 06-19-2012, 02:51 PM
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You are what we call a "shill" or pitchman here in the USA, and as such you have virtually no credibility.
You can call me what you like, but I've heard the sub in question - have you? Here in the UK, we call people like you a troll, and as such, you'd have no credibility either.
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The threshold of hearing at 10Hz is 100db. We've seen absolutely nothing that indicates that the MK 3 can produce that output. Just specious claims without any back-up rolleyes.gif
So how about everyone shuts up until they've heard the sub, or seen some measured specs? Is that fair enough? You can't just look at a product and say, "that's going to sound ****".

Frank Harvey Hi-Fi, UK
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post #111 of 208 Old 06-19-2012, 03:06 PM
 
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The threshold of hearing at 10Hz is 100db. We've seen absolutely nothing that indicates that the MK 3 can produce that output. Just specious claims without any back-up rolleyes.gif

You're the one posting ridiculous and unfounded comments without even hearing one or comparing it to anything. If I can't state an opinion based on experience without being called a liar, then what makes you think that you are so special that you can say anything you like? It works both ways. wink.gif

Also, where did I say that I can hear down to or even below 10Hz? Nowhere. So give it a rest, it's getting pathetic. rolleyes.gif
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post #112 of 208 Old 06-19-2012, 03:31 PM
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The pair I have are flat down to 10Hz in my room.

How big is your room??

My Quad LMS Ultra 5400 Build:
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post #113 of 208 Old 06-19-2012, 06:35 PM
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This thread is flat to 10 hz! biggrin.gif
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post #114 of 208 Old 06-20-2012, 05:22 AM
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Until you provided the link, spyboy, I didn't know about Dav1dF's business association. And yes, since he does not choose to forthrightly disclose this association when he posts, he is a shill. Even in England I would think they have an ethical obligation to disclose potential conflicts of interest and to politely recuse oneself in such situations.

Certainly he's heard the sub but more accurately, he's heard the effect of the room on the sub. As anyone who has at least read for a while realizes, simply changing a subs location can make it 'sound' completely different. Experimenting with different equalizations will do the same thing. So yes, Dav1dF's heard it. So has mjf_uk. Yet both of these gentlemen, who I take to be serious enthusiasts don't want to talk about the room the sub is in. Neither serious enthusiast wants to talk about the measurements they've made to identify the best locations (within the constraints that they're given). Neither enthusiast has commented on any room correction. The one person who might have some pull with KK to be more publicly forthcoming with measurements instead relies on that old refrain, have you heard it? Well most have heard that saying but it doesn't play as well as it used to.

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post #115 of 208 Old 06-20-2012, 05:55 AM
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I'll happily put who I work for in my details if AVS allow it.

I haven't made any comments on measurements as I haven't measured one. I've heard it in the same room that we used to demonstrate MX350's (right back to the original MkI) and MX5100SF. So my comments are in comparison to what I know about that room and how subs from all different manufacturers perform in it.

Frank Harvey Hi-Fi, UK
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The way I see it, no matter what I post, anything I say is going to be twisted out of proportion. So why should I even bother trying to convince anyone with such a negative attitude towards a product they have decided they don't like.

For the record, I am currently beta testing some measuring equipment and the NDA prevents me from discussing it. I had confirmation today that I am free to admit it, as long as I do not reveal any details about the manufacturer or the products. I did intend to purchase a Dayton EMM-6 or Behringer ECM8000 and a Pre-Amp to use with REW, for comparison, but I simply can't afford it at the moment.

The replies, accusations and attitudes have been interesting though. Proving that some people just don't know when to shut up and others will say anything to try and be-little a person or a product that they know very little (or nothing) about.

This is my last post on the thread. Make of it what you will.
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post #117 of 208 Old 06-20-2012, 06:44 AM
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Well, it is nice to see KK return, his older designs were awesome and is what made me get into this hobby! His 5000 system was great at the time and it still sounds fantastic this day! Those 5000 speakers actually sound as dynamic as some of my big JBL's but did not sound as big for obvious reasons. Anyways, what I was trying to say I am a huge M&K fan and KK needs to up his game because since that 5000 system I have put together other systems that not only perform better but is much cheaper as well. This is why I said it needed to hit at least 106 dBs at 20hz. My current DIY kit system is killer and much cheaper. Commercially I know eD makes speakers and subs that would beat the older M&K stuff hands down, this is how good the industry has become and for much cheaper. Their eD cinema 12 was better than the M&K 5000 for cheaper and the A7S-650 is much better than their MX-5000mk1 and 2's. Even the cheaper SHO-10's come very close and are better in some regards and their subs are better as well.
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post #118 of 208 Old 06-20-2012, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Dav1dF View Post

I'll happily put who I work for in my details if AVS allow it.
I haven't made any comments on measurements as I haven't measured one. I've heard it in the same room that we used to demonstrate MX350's (right back to the original MkI) and MX5100SF. So my comments are in comparison to what I know about that room and how subs from all different manufacturers perform in it.
It does allow it. You can make it part of your signature and IIRC there should not be a one click access to a website. Don't you guys have measurement capabilities?

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post #119 of 208 Old 06-20-2012, 08:31 AM
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The way I see it, no matter what I post, anything I say is going to be twisted out of proportion. So why should I even bother trying to convince anyone with such a negative attitude towards a product they have decided they don't like.
For the record, I am currently beta testing some measuring equipment and the NDA prevents me from discussing it. I had confirmation today that I am free to admit it, as long as I do not reveal any details about the manufacturer or the products. I did intend to purchase a Dayton EMM-6 or Behringer ECM8000 and a Pre-Amp to use with REW, for comparison, but I simply can't afford it at the moment.
The replies, accusations and attitudes have been interesting though. Proving that some people just don't know when to shut up and others will say anything to try and be-little a person or a product that they know very little (or nothing) about.
This is my last post on the thread. Make of it what you will.

This is the 3rd time you said you were finished with this thread. First in post number 66, then in post number 74, and now here. Do us all a favor and live up to your promises...we will find out eventually how the MK3 actually measures using CEA 2010 standards.
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post #120 of 208 Old 06-20-2012, 10:27 AM
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...we will find out eventually how the MK3 actually measures using CEA 2010 standards.
So why not 'cease and desist' until you have those measurements then, rather than continue with the hate campaign?

Frank Harvey Hi-Fi, UK
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