How not to localize the Sub - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 38 Old 06-06-2012, 07:51 AM - Thread Starter
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When watching movies I seem to localize the sub. I get a ringing on my left ear. I have the Hsu VTF3 MK4 and have a Denon receiver with in ceiling speakers brand Profficient that does 40hz to 2000 khz.
Audyssey set my speakers to small, center to 80, L,R to 120 and surrounds to 90. I have played with the speaker crossovers and set them all to 80 however, I am still having the problem.
The sub volume is set at 0db and the LFE on avr is 120.
I was told not to touch the LFE and leave it at 120.

Is there something that I am missing?
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post #2 of 38 Old 06-06-2012, 08:11 AM
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If your sub's in the front left corner, and if it's feasible, move it out of that corner and place it somewhere along the front wall. (Do a sub crawl first to determine the best spot along that wall to move it to.)
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post #3 of 38 Old 06-06-2012, 08:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

If your sub's in the front left corner, and if it's feasible, move it out of that corner and place it somewhere along the front wall. (Do a sub crawl first to determine the best spot along that wall to move it to.)

It is on the front left corner. It got there because I did the crawl using an spl meter and the included Hsu test cd. That spot showed the best bass response.
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post #4 of 38 Old 06-06-2012, 08:32 AM
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I found that the front-left corner of my room offered the most SPL, too, but it also made subs localize-able (even with the crossover set at 60Hz), so I never placed them there.

I found that the next-best spots were...
- between the FR and Center speakers, and
- between the FL and Center speakers,
...so that's where the subs went.

I recalibrated the system and everything was good: Plenty of SPL, no more localization. smile.gif
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post #5 of 38 Old 06-06-2012, 08:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

I found that the front-left corner of my room offered the most SPL, too, but it also made subs localize-able (even with the crossover set at 60Hz), so I never placed them there.
I found that the next-best spots were...
- between the FR and Center speakers, and
- between the FL and Center speakers,
...so that's where the subs went.
I recalibrated the system and everything was good: Plenty of SPL, no more localization. smile.gif

Between the FR and Center speakers or between FL and Center speakers insn't that considered the center of the room? I was told to avoid center of a room.
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post #6 of 38 Old 06-06-2012, 09:02 AM
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The center of the room is the middle of the room itself. When someone suggests that you avoid the center of the room, they're usually referring to the placement of your seating / primary listening position.
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post #7 of 38 Old 06-06-2012, 10:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

The center of the room is the middle of the room itself. When someone suggests that you avoid the center of the room, they're usually referring to the placement of your seating / primary listening position.

The thing about moving it is I won't get the same response. Were I have it now is the best spl I could get other areas were 2 and 3rd place.
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post #8 of 38 Old 06-06-2012, 11:06 AM
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I got the best SPL when my sub (first an SVS PB10-NSD, and then a PB12-NSD) was in the front-left corner. I also got localization. I chose no localization (by moving the sub out of the corner) over max SPL. It was a good compromise.

(And eventually I upgraded to dual 18" subs. biggrin.gif)

Anyway, someone else may know how you can leave your sub in the corner and reduce localization at the same time. I'm afraid I don't have that answer.
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post #9 of 38 Old 06-06-2012, 11:38 AM
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Between the 7 subwoofer systems in my home and 5 systems in my office, I have found placement to be further down the list of changes which affect localization. My office subwoofer is several feet behind and to the left of me and it is harder to integrate than my home systems. I start by level matching the subs and mains. However, the most important adjustment I have found to help is to get the subwoofer and mains integration correct at the crossover point by using the distance setting. Sealed subs located in the front might need to be a couple feet further than their actual measured distance, ported subs can need around 5 ft, and horns might need up to 17 ft extra. This is just a generalization based on a lot of subs I have measured. You might actually need to reduce the distance setting for some circumstances and location. I like use use the RTA feature in REW and adjust the distance until I get the smoothest response around the crossover frequency.

I also play with different crossover points and different slopes on the crossover simultaneously with the distance setting. Most can't change slopes with a receiver. I can change the low pass slope on the crossover of the sub between 12, 24, 36, and 48 db/octave and I can also change the high pass on the mains to different slopes. By varying the crossover frequency, crossover slope, and distance setting I am able to best integrate the subwoofer with the mains.

The next thing I do is EQ the sub(s). A peak in the midbass or inductance hump will cause one to localize the sub. A smoother frequency response

Even though I start with the subs and mains level matched, it doesn't have as much impact on localization as the distance setting or EQ. Once the distance setting is dialed in and the frequency response is EQ'd, I then raise the sub level by around 3-6 dB. If the sub and mains are well integrated and the subs are EQ'd you can run the subs hot and still not localize them. There are still situations where room placement will limit the variation in SPL between the sub and mains if you don't want localization.

In summary, the following can be adjusted to help with localization:
  • Crossover frequency
  • Crossover slope
  • Distance Setting (Use phase if distance isn't available)
  • Equalization of subwoofer
  • SPL difference between mains and sub
  • Subwoofer location
  • Upgrade your entire system biggrin.gif
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post #10 of 38 Old 06-07-2012, 06:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Can someone please explain crossover for Dummies like me? Lets say the speakers are set at 80 hz. I know that anything below 80 the sub takes care of it and anything above 80 the speakers handle it. Below 80 is more bass to the sub and above 80 is more bass to the speakers right? So if the speaker is set at 120 does that mean that the speaker gets more of the bass?
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post #11 of 38 Old 06-07-2012, 06:10 AM
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Lets say the speakers are set at 80 hz. I know that anything below 80 the sub takes care of it and anything above 80 the speakers handle it. Below 80 is more bass to the sub and above 80 is more bass to the speakers right? So if the speaker is set at 120 does that mean that the speaker gets more of the bass?
Using a frequency range of 10Hz - 15000Hz as an example:

- When the crossover is set to 80Hz, your sub gets all the frequencies from 10Hz - 80Hz, and your speakers get all the frequencies from 80Hz - 15,000Hz.
- When the crossover is set to 120Hz, your sub gets all the frequencies from 10Hz - 120Hz, and your speakers get all the frequencies from 120Hz - 15,000Hz.

Raising the crossover point allocates more of the lower frequencies to the subwoofer.

(Note: A crossover isn't a hard "cut", but more of a "transition", as in this pic.)
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post #12 of 38 Old 06-07-2012, 07:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

Quote:
Lets say the speakers are set at 80 hz. I know that anything below 80 the sub takes care of it and anything above 80 the speakers handle it. Below 80 is more bass to the sub and above 80 is more bass to the speakers right? So if the speaker is set at 120 does that mean that the speaker gets more of the bass?
Using a frequency range of 10Hz - 15000Hz as an example:
- When the crossover is set to 80Hz, your sub gets all the frequencies from 10Hz - 80Hz, and your speakers get all the frequencies from 80Hz - 15,000Hz.
- When the crossover is set to 120Hz, your sub gets all the frequencies from 10Hz - 120Hz, and your speakers get all the frequencies from 120Hz - 15,000Hz.
Raising the crossover point allocates more of the lower frequencies to the subwoofer.
(Note: A crossover isn't a hard "cut", but more of a "transition", as in this pic.)

Nice explainantion, Thanks! By the way nice clean set up you got there!
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post #13 of 38 Old 06-07-2012, 08:27 AM
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post #14 of 38 Old 06-08-2012, 11:10 AM
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Awesome info, guys. As someone who is not too familiar with subs and how they work, this has been very helpful. Thanks for taking the time to explain it.
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post #15 of 38 Old 06-08-2012, 02:36 PM
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Hi Asere, you might as well set your sub's cross over to 80 or below. Theoretically anything over 80 is localizable, so that is probably what is causing your localization. The problem is your left/right mains don't look like they are up to the task of playing down to 80 hz, so if you turn the sub down to 80, you will have a gap in your frequency response. So you have to choose what offends you the least, localized subwoofer or frequency response gap. You might consider getting better front stage speakers.
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post #16 of 38 Old 06-09-2012, 10:55 AM
 
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Get another sub.

Also, what's so bad about locatable bass. When I go to the movies or a concert the bass is always locatable. At the movies, you know the bass in moving from front to back especially if you sitting in the back of the theater like I usually do.
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post #17 of 38 Old 06-09-2012, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

I got the best SPL when my sub (first an SVS PB10-NSD, and then a PB12-NSD) was in the front-left corner. I also got localization. I chose no localization (by moving the sub out of the corner) over max SPL. It was a good compromise.
(And eventually I upgraded to dual 18" subs. biggrin.gif)
Anyway, someone else may know how you can leave your sub in the corner and reduce localization at the same time. I'm afraid I don't have that answer.

Maybe deaden the entire corner of the room?

I just put a sub the hatchback of my car about a week ago. And then this week, put significant sound deadening in the hatch area floor, the hatch door, and the rear wheel wells. Before, sometimes I felt like the sub bass was coming from the back of the car because of the way it was resonating. Now, I can't tell at all.

Of course it's not practical to sound deaden the corners/walls of most rooms wink.gifbiggrin.gif

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post #18 of 38 Old 06-09-2012, 12:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Hi Asere, you might as well set your sub's cross over to 80 or below. Theoretically anything over 80 is localizable, so that is probably what is causing your localization. The problem is your left/right mains don't look like they are up to the task of playing down to 80 hz, so if you turn the sub down to 80, you will have a gap in your frequency response. So you have to choose what offends you the least, localized subwoofer or frequency response gap. You might consider getting better front stage speakers.

I can't tell if there is a gap or not so I might as well leave it at 80.
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post #19 of 38 Old 06-09-2012, 05:22 PM
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If you want to know what you're missing, run some frequency sweeps and test tones in that range. Notice how much quieter the sound is at the gap where your speakers won't play and your sub cuts off, which will be from 80 hz to 120 (a rather important range, to be honest). If you want to be sure, get a SPL meter while you are runngin those tests.Here is one frequency sweep that covers 20 hz to 250 hz. The only two solutions to this problem are either get another sub, and co-locate the subs with your left and right front speakers, or get better left and right fronts. Since your front stage is already lacking in that respect, it will most certainly have shortcomings in other areas as well, I would look at replacing the fronts.
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post #20 of 38 Old 06-11-2012, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

If you want to know what you're missing, run some frequency sweeps and test tones in that range. Notice how much quieter the sound is at the gap where your speakers won't play and your sub cuts off, which will be from 80 hz to 120 (a rather important range, to be honest). If you want to be sure, get a SPL meter while you are runngin those tests.Here is one frequency sweep that covers 20 hz to 250 hz. The only two solutions to this problem are either get another sub, and co-locate the subs with your left and right front speakers, or get better left and right fronts. Since your front stage is already lacking in that respect, it will most certainly have shortcomings in other areas as well, I would look at replacing the fronts.


So I would get the spl meter and play tones from 80 to 120 and write each one down right? Do I do this first having them all set to 80 and then all set to 120 to see the difference in tones?
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post #21 of 38 Old 06-11-2012, 09:05 AM
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I would look at a greater range than that. I would look 20 to 120 or higher, just to see how everything is, but the range we want to focus on is 80 to 120. Yes, you will want to test both 80 hz crossover and 120 hz crossover to see how they differ.
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post #22 of 38 Old 06-11-2012, 10:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I would look at a greater range than that. I would look 20 to 120 or higher, just to see how everything is, but the range we want to focus on is 80 to 120. Yes, you will want to test both 80 hz crossover and 120 hz crossover to see how they differ.

For this test do I need to disconnect the center and surrounds and just test the L,R since those are the ones at 120hz?
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post #23 of 38 Old 06-11-2012, 05:15 PM
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You will just want to test the left/right fronts since they are the ones having trouble.
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post #24 of 38 Old 06-13-2012, 04:08 PM - Thread Starter
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How come my sub is localized at 120 speaker crossover but when I bring down to 80 I hear no difference and sounds the same?
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post #25 of 38 Old 06-13-2012, 04:12 PM
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Could be because of the corner placement. When I had my sub in the corner, it was localize-able even if the crossover was as low as 60Hz. With the sub between a main speaker and the center channel speaker, I could set the crossover to 80Hz or even a bit higher without localizing the sub.
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post #26 of 38 Old 06-14-2012, 05:52 AM - Thread Starter
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I apologize for asking about localized sub again but this is my first true subwoofer and I don't know what is right or not as far as sound. Whenever I listen to music the bass sounds nice and smooth and whenever I watch a movie it is smooth until there is a low frequency and the bass feels tight however, at the same time I feel pressure on my ear even at moderate/low levels.
Is the pressure normal or is that considered localized?
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post #27 of 38 Old 06-14-2012, 08:46 AM
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Localized means you hear the sound as coming from the sub rather than wherever in the sound stage the mixer put it. I can put my sub at the far left of my room, and listen to music with deep bass at the far right, and the bass sounds like it's coming from the far right, not from the sub over on the left. That means the sub is not localizable, Our ears/brains use higher frequencies to define sound direction, so unless you have odd room problems, once you get the crossover low enough, everything will appear to come from it's propre location even though you know in your head that the deepest parts of those low notes are really coming from the sub.
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post #28 of 38 Old 04-18-2013, 08:48 AM - Thread Starter
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I am running 2 subs now. I can hear the bass from the sub that is next to the couch were I sit. My crossovers are at 80hz. Is it normal to hear where the bass is coming from since I sit close to the sub? I don't hear where it is coming from with my other sub at a different sitting area. The other sub is not next to a couch.
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post #29 of 38 Old 04-18-2013, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

I am running 2 subs now. I can hear the bass from the sub that is next to the couch were I sit. My crossovers are at 80hz. Is it normal to hear where the bass is coming from since I sit close to the sub? I don't hear where it is coming from with my other sub at a different sitting area. The other sub is not next to a couch.

Generally speaking, if you're sitting right next to the sub, it will be more localizible than having the sub farther away. If for no other reason than you'll feel vibrations coming from the sub.
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post #30 of 38 Old 04-19-2013, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

I am running 2 subs now. I can hear the bass from the sub that is next to the couch were I sit. My crossovers are at 80hz. Is it normal to hear where the bass is coming from since I sit close to the sub? I don't hear where it is coming from with my other sub at a different sitting area. The other sub is not next to a couch.


place them both on each side of the couch and get the phase alignment correct and you will not be able tell where the bass is coming from. when you plece the subs at a large of distance then they are not hitting in the same wave legnth, so the sub you sit closest to will be localized.
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