Short subjective review of the Kreisel DXD-12012 DUO (aka MX-5000 Mk3) - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 61 Old 07-07-2012, 09:30 PM - Thread Starter
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################
# These are my Subjective thoughts. My intention is to share my experience with others. There are NO MEASUREMENTS or GRAPHS. Trolls and Haters go somewhere else - don't post here.
################

>>Official Ken Kreisel product page.<<

A bit of history: I was introduced to M&K in 1995 when a friend bought a full S-150 THX, SS-150 tripole, MX-150 THX system. Later that year I bought a MX-90 and followed it up with an MX-125 in 1996.

System spec: Boston Acoustics E100 R/L, Boston E70 Center, Boston E60 surrounds and a single Boston Micro130x rear. The L/R/C are run off an Emotiva XPA-3, the rest an Onkyo TX-SR805. DXD-12012's connected with Blue Jeans Cable LC-1 Analog Audio Cable.

Room conditions: 14' x 25' x 8' Floor, front and side walls are concrete. Walls are furred out, insulated and drywall. The main listening area is the right 14' x 18' side of the room carpeted with medium padding, the left side of the room has a bar area with ceramic tile. The right wall has an 36" x 81" x 16" deep egress window with a honeycomb blackout blind. The right front corner is a 3.5' long 45 degree angled wall with built in fireplace. The rear right wall opens to a staircase and to the left of the main listening area there is a hallway were the carpet meets the ceramic tile. Ceiling joists to the first floor are 18" truss system layered as follows, first floor Berber carpet, medium density pad, oriented strand board (OSB), 18" truss joist, drywall.

Pictures: These show the room layout that I described in the review. I call it a "real world" example of having a "theater" in a multi-purpose room with many acoustical challenges.

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Review: I've been using the DXD-12012 DUO for about two weeks. I've run break-in material, experimented with placement, run an eight point Audyssey Multeq XT calibration, manually tweaked SPL and crossover points and the DXD-12012's sound amazing. [Link to post with more placement detail] The Duo blends seamlessly with my mains with no hint of localization just anchored added extension and ample LFE when called on. They are not "music" or "movie" subs, they are accurate subs that realistically reproduce whatever I've thrown at them.

The Duo are at all default settings and crossed at 80Hz, E100's 40Hz, E70 & E60's 60Hz, Micro130x 80Hz. I have the Duo placed in the front right corner where the front wall meets the angled "corner" wall positioned at a 55 degree angle into the room.

While roughly twice as large as a single MX-125 the DXD-12012 DUO's clean lines and classic styling blend into my room well and have a fair "spousal approval factor". That said, with 77" tall mains nothing is hiding in my room.

In addition to a great product, KKsound has excellent customer service. The team he has assembled know the product, how it works in the real-world and can provide the information you need to get setup in less than perfect spaces. The amount of personal attention I've received via phone calls and email has raised my expectations for all other companies.

Testing material:
Transformers Blu-ray
Inception Blu-ray
Gear Daddies "She's Happy" vinyl
Son Volt's "Dead Man's Clothes" vinyl
Jack Johnson's "Better Together" and "Banana Pancakes" CD
Norah Jones's "Cold, Cold Heart" CD
India Arie's "Video" CD
HDnet Joe Satriani @ the Grove in Anaheim CA. Dolby Digital EX
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post #2 of 61 Old 07-07-2012, 10:40 PM
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Congrats on the new subs!

Have you thought of separating them to see if they can even out the bass in your room?
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post #3 of 61 Old 07-08-2012, 02:13 AM
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Have you considered them in opposite sides of the room instead of colocating them? Gotta say it came in a nice box biggrin.gif.

Glad to see you're enjoying your subs though biggrin.gif Would be great to see how they measure one day. Maybe another member here will get one and take it to a future subwoofer gtg

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #4 of 61 Old 07-08-2012, 08:07 AM
 
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Glad you're enjoying them image1. I've been in contact with someone who has a stacked pair and his pre EQ graph looks a bit better than mine. He had measured a single and the pair. so it was interesting to see the difference. Obviously the room and placement still makes a difference but, with the drivers firing in opposite directions, stacking seems to improve the response better than I expected.
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post #5 of 61 Old 07-08-2012, 09:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jchong View Post

Congrats on the new subs!
Have you thought of separating them to see if they can even out the bass in your room?

I haven't tried them un-stacked. The first thing I did was place the stack in the position my MX-125 was in and give it a listen with no other changes. It was impressive. I then moved the bookshelf on the right side of the TV to the back/left of the room and moved the stack to point straight into the room. This didn't sound as good. This is were I did my first 8 point calibration. It improved the performance but not much better than my MX-125. I then moved the stack into the corner as much as possible without blocking the fireplace at a 45 degree angle and re-ran the calibration. This made a HUGE improvement. Then I played with changing the angle and moving it in and out from the front wall. I decided that the 55 degree angle and about 3 inches off the front wall was the best. I re-calibrated and WOW! even better. So this is the position I'm leaving it in for now. I haven't received the stacking brackets or carpet spikes yet (KK is sending them to me - I think I have one of the first pairs sold in the U.S.A. since I ordered them before the web-store came online - and I have consecutive serial numbers :-). So, right now they are not bolted together or coupled to the floor as well as they could be. I expect even better performance once those arrive.

edit: I received the spikes, bolt-up and stacking pads. Now everything is connected and mass loaded to the concrete floor.
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post #6 of 61 Old 08-22-2012, 04:19 PM
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image1, Congratulations on your two Ken Kreisel DXD-12012 subs! And a personal message on the back too from Ken. That's a real nice touch. smile.gif

I'm glad to hear you like their performance, but I'm not surprised. Ken has produced many great sounding speakers and subs. I have one of Ken's M&K subs (V-125), I purchased back in '97 and love it's performance. A friend also has an M&K MX-200 that I've listened too and really like.

Keep us updated on any changes to your system.
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post #7 of 61 Old 08-24-2012, 03:33 PM
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When Tom Nousaine who has literally tested hundreds of subwoofers some of which are shown here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvieXs2IbzIfdFB1dVFtLW5HeF9yb1o2TjIyU2F1Unc&hl=en_US#gid=0

He tested the M&K MX-125 and it ended up on line number 236. I personally chose the 2nd ranked sub in the group he tested in Video Magazine. The Cerwin-Vega HT12-PWR came in only behind the $850 HSU. I paid $378 for the Cerwin-Vega and Tom said, In that particular group that Tom tested, he said: "it's actually the number 2 performer when measurements are the only factor."

For $378 dollars the Cerwin-Vega also inludes a remote volume control.

People have different priorities, mine happens to be the most bang for the buck. YMMV

PS No denying having a pair of personally signed subs is a source of pride smile.gif
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post #8 of 61 Old 11-04-2012, 04:13 AM
 
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Well, well, well, if I wasn't right after all....

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&twu=1&u=http://avforum.no/forum/1881637-post127.html&usg=ALkJrhiLQipUPbbFm9heXb0yDic03vRXwQ

Don't forget that this graph is measuring just a single DXD12012 and I was talking about 2 of them in my room.

Now who feels stupid? Because if you don't you should do. rolleyes.gif
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post #9 of 61 Old 11-04-2012, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjf_uk View Post

Well, well, well, if I wasn't right after all....
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&twu=1&u=http://avforum.no/forum/1881637-post127.html&usg=ALkJrhiLQipUPbbFm9heXb0yDic03vRXwQ
Don't forget that this graph is measuring just a single DXD12012 and I was talking about 2 of them in my room.
Now who feels stupid? Because if you don't you should do. rolleyes.gif

Actually you just don't understand. We all know a sealed sub can get to single digits in room, the point is can it play loud down low or will it compress! That is all.

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Actually, the graph above clearly shows a single DXD12012 reaching 6Hz. Argue all you like, but it backs up what I said. End of. tongue.gif
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post #11 of 61 Old 11-04-2012, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Actually you just don't understand. We all know a sealed sub can get to single digits in room, the point is can it play loud down low or will it compress! That is all.

+1 MKtheater,

the SPL is way to low to play loud low, real data from avforums site, where tested four of them.

"To put this in perspective. Subtract 12dB for the output of a single DXD12012. Subtract aproximately 6dB for the room gain received below my lowest room mode (24Hz). That would mean circa 95dB @ 18Hz of clean output from a sealed subwoofer with 12" drivers. That's pretty respectable, but raw output isn't what the DXD12012 is about...."

so the max output is circa 95dB @ 18Hz at 1m, if your LP is 4m away so subtract 12dB and you are at 83dB @ 18Hz that is far, far away from reference level of 105dB smile.gif
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post #12 of 61 Old 11-04-2012, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjf_uk View Post

Actually, the graph above clearly shows a single DXD12012 reaching 6Hz. Argue all you like, but it backs up what I said. End of. tongue.gif

Listen, I loved M&K, I am just saying the spl level is too low for any real data.

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Originally Posted by ZivkoF View Post

+1 MKtheater,
the SPL is way to low to play loud low, real data from avforums site, where tested four of them.
"To put this in perspective. Subtract 12dB for the output of a single DXD12012. Subtract aproximately 6dB for the room gain received below my lowest room mode (24Hz). That would mean circa 95dB @ 18Hz of clean output from a sealed subwoofer with 12" drivers. That's pretty respectable, but raw output isn't what the DXD12012 is about...."
so the max output is circa 95dB @ 18Hz at 1m, if your LP is 4m away so subtract 12dB and you are at 83dB @ 18Hz that is far, far away from reference level of 105dB smile.gif


+1

Hard to believe he came back to this thread with that evidence as "proof and justification" rolleyes.gif
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95 dBs is not bad for dual 12's in a sealed cabinet but my $500 DIY dual 12's get 106 dBs at 20hz and mine sound much better than the older MX-5000's.

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amps-5 Adcom 555 in 850 watt monoblock mode
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

95 dBs is not bad for dual 12's in a sealed cabinet but my $500 DIY dual 12's get 106 dBs at 20hz and mine sound much better than the older MX-5000's.


Hi Mktheater,

yes I know that also your sub internal volume is much bigger than of dxd-12012, I have seen the photo of the dxd-12012 drivers, magnets and construction and to tell you I was not at all impressed, I know which drivers are you using and those are very good smile.gif, also your have a lot of more power so you can easily reach 106 dBa at 20Hz with just one and I hhink you have SIX of dual 12s smile.gif
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post #16 of 61 Old 11-05-2012, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZivkoF View Post

Hi Mktheater,
yes I know that also your sub internal volume is much bigger than of dxd-12012, I have seen the photo of the dxd-12012 drivers, magnets and construction and to tell you I was not at all impressed, I know which drivers are you using and those are very good smile.gif, also your have a lot of more power so you can easily reach 106 dBa at 20Hz with just one and I hhink you have SIX of dual 12s smile.gif

Yes I have 12 of the drivers with the 14000 watt clone amp to power all as one unit. I just had a professional video taken of the drivers moving during 120 dBs of Bass I love you. Madaeel will post them soon(He came over this weekend and we had a blast).

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amps-5 Adcom 555 in 850 watt monoblock mode
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Yes I have 12 of the drivers with the 14000 watt clone amp to power all as one unit. I just had a professional video taken of the drivers moving during 120 dBs of Bass I love you. Madaeel will post them soon(He came over this weekend and we had a blast).


Thanks for information, will this video be posted on DIY Speakers and Subs site "Your MKtheater DIY thread" smile.gif
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post #18 of 61 Old 11-05-2012, 11:10 AM
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I am not sure which thread it will be posted on but I will look for it.

AVR-Yamaha A830
amps-5 Adcom 555 in 850 watt monoblock mode
sub amp-Sanway FP14K
LCR-Dual stacked BFM DR-250's
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjf_uk View Post

Actually, the graph above clearly shows a single DXD12012 reaching 6Hz. Argue all you like, but it backs up what I said. End of. tongue.gif

The threshold of audibility at 10 Hz is 100 db. You might get there with 8 of the Kreisel, however for that ~$24,000 you could have TEN Seaton Submersives. I have heard the Submersive and if I had the money Mark Seaton would be the person I would order from.

Best Regards
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Hey, good for you, doesn't change a thing.
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post #21 of 61 Old 11-05-2012, 02:47 PM
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Hey, good for you, doesn't change a thing.

After you've heard a Submersive, get back to me. According to Mark Seaton, one version should soon be available for $1,799 plus shipping. smile.gif
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Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

After you've heard a Submersive, get back to me. According to Mark Seaton, one version should soon be available for $1,799 plus shipping. smile.gif
I'll pass, I've got my Subwoofer needs covered thanks. tongue.gif
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Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

+1
Hard to believe he came back to this thread with that evidence as "proof and justification" rolleyes.gif

I think he just wanted to back up his earlier assertion that the KK has extension to 10Hz in room. At the time he did not mention anything about usable output at 10Hz (probably because he didn't know and still doesn't know about the relevance of that).
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Originally Posted by mjf_uk View Post

Actually, the graph above clearly shows a single DXD12012 reaching 6Hz. Argue all you like, but it backs up what I said. End of. tongue.gif

You've got half the story right, but you missed the other half.
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post #25 of 61 Old 11-06-2012, 08:31 PM
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Home theater shack is going to be publishing some sub reviews with outdoor measurements. Hopefully the dxd 12012 will be reviewed this way. I would love to see a whole range of subs reviewed in this manner, including the submersive f2. The Bipole design of the regular sub m makes this impossible. The sound quality of ken's previous m&k offerings IMO has always been great and hopefully the new ones sound better. Still want to see some published measurements. Audioholics currently does this with their teriffic reviews, velodyne dd18+ and paradigm sub 2 amongst them. Now let me ask a question, if measurements in output vs distortion were close between a series of subs you were considering we're close, which would you choose. Is it just based on max clean output at a certain frequency? How much headroom and output would you be prepared to trade off for better sound quality? Cost, size are other important variables. I love the fact that sites publish raw outdoor data and look forward to more reviews, but how much emphasis should be placed on how a product sounds vs measured data?
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post #26 of 61 Old 11-06-2012, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by wonka1 View Post

Home theater shack is going to be publishing some sub reviews with outdoor measurements. Hopefully the dxd 12012 will be reviewed this way. I would love to see a whole range of subs reviewed in this manner, including the submersive f2. The Bipole design of the regular sub m makes this impossible. The sound quality of ken's previous m&k offerings IMO has always been great and hopefully the new ones sound better. Still want to see some published measurements. Audioholics currently does this with their teriffic reviews, velodyne dd18+ and paradigm sub 2 amongst them. Now let me ask a question, if measurements in output vs distortion were close between a series of subs you were considering we're close, which would you choose. Is it just based on max clean output at a certain frequency? How much headroom and output would you be prepared to trade off for better sound quality? Cost, size are other important variables. I love the fact that sites publish raw outdoor data and look forward to more reviews, but how much emphasis should be placed on how a product sounds vs measured data?

When you get to this price range and half with ID companies the numbers only matter. Why? Because at this level the sound quality is great from all of them. Now there are crappy expensive subs(sound quality) but I would say all ID over $1500 sound awesome and DIY is off the charts. I have always Loved the original M&K speakers and subs(see my user name) but I would like to see some high spl to go along with their subs.

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post #27 of 61 Old 11-06-2012, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

When you get to this price range and half with ID companies the numbers only matter. Why? Because at this level the sound quality is great from all of them. Now there are crappy expensive subs(sound quality) but I would say all ID over $1500 sound awesome and DIY is off the charts. I have always Loved the original M&K speakers and subs(see my user name) but I would like to see some high spl to go along with their subs.

Not disagreeing with you on high spl, but in regards to sound quality while you suggested that all of them have good sound, do you think they sound different with similar with outdoor measurements?
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post #28 of 61 Old 11-07-2012, 06:48 AM
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how much emphasis should be placed on how a product sounds vs measured data?
The two are inseparable. If it measures good it will sound good, if it sounds good it will measure good.
Quote:
if measurements in output vs distortion were close between a series of subs you were considering we're close, which would you choose.
The less expensive one, assuming they were capable of equal output. Knowing that requires measuring not just at small signal levels but also at maximum power.

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post #29 of 61 Old 11-07-2012, 12:59 PM
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I am not disputing a strong correlation between numbers and performance, but it does not explain at gtg's were on certain program material that some have a preference for one sub over another. Can all of people's listening preferences be explained by measured data. I absolutely do concede the kk's need some maximum output data published.
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post #30 of 61 Old 11-07-2012, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wonka1 View Post

I am not disputing a strong correlation between numbers and performance, but it does not explain at gtg's were on certain program material that some have a preference for one sub over another. Can all of people's listening preferences be explained by measured data. I absolutely do concede the kk's need some maximum output data published.

Yes it can, all the responses were different from one another. Do you like said sub or do you like a certain response of a room. Basically, you like which ever sub has the response you prefer for that room. Every room will change the response as well. Most subs are eq'd flat outside but once put in a room the response is dominated by the room. Without EQ for each sub making them flat in that room it is a crap shoot. Usually the sub with the most spl wins, and with the better internal EQ.

AVR-Yamaha A830
amps-5 Adcom 555 in 850 watt monoblock mode
sub amp-Sanway FP14K
LCR-Dual stacked BFM DR-250's
Surrounds- Dual stacked BFM W10's
subs-12 SI 18's ported 6hz.
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