Subwoofer setup - must be missing something simple - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 19 Old 07-15-2012, 01:55 PM - Thread Starter
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I posted in the Yamaha RX-V673 thread but think I will be better served here. I have the new Yamaha RX-V673 with 5.1 setup and the sub is on a single cable connected to sub out on the receiver. I had the sub working well at my other house but when I moved I had help hooking everything up again. The sub is a Boston Acoustics VR2000 and it should rock. Anyway, the problem is with music I get nothing from the sub. I've tried every sound choice to get something but so far I have nothing. When playing movies the sub is fine. I understand that the music isn't 5.1 so it doesn't have .1 output for the sub but there has got to be a setting or something I'm missing to get sub out when listening to stereo sound.

Receiver= sub out
I have the crossover set to about 80 and volume at 50%.
It has a polarity switch that is set to 180
The input is going to Fixed In with nothing going to Variable In R/L.

Lastly, since I'm already asking, the YPAO set all of my speakers to large but I wonder if I should change them to small. I have Boston Acoustics VR12 center, VR750 (non powered 2x 5 1/4 I think) and CR6 bookshelf speakers for the rear. While these speakers do handle more bass than typical satellite speakers, I wonder if they should be set to large. If I end up changing all of this I wonder the value of the YPAO as a whole.

Thanks ahead of time for any help.
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post #2 of 19 Old 07-15-2012, 01:58 PM
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It's possible that, for music, your receiver is defaulting to playing in "Straight" or "Pure Direct" mode, which bypasses all audio processing - i.e., front speakers play full-range, subwoofer is disabled, all EQ-ing is disabled, etc. (See pg. 47 of the owner's manual for "MUSIC" vs. "PURE DIRECT".) Set your speakers to "small" and make sure your receiver is NOT defaulting to one of the aforementioned modes for stereo.
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post #3 of 19 Old 07-15-2012, 04:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

It's possible that, for music, your receiver is defaulting to playing in "Straight" or "Pure Direct" mode, which bypasses all audio processing - i.e., front speakers play full-range, subwoofer is disabled, all EQ-ing is disabled, etc. (See pg. 47 of the owner's manual for "MUSIC" vs. "PURE DIRECT".) Set your speakers to "small" and make sure your receiver is NOT defaulting to one of the aforementioned modes for stereo.

I was hoping you were right on this but it doesn't appear so. I've tried using every sound mode I can find and turned direct on and off. I did manage to get better bass out of the 5 speakers that are playing by adjusting the controls to put tons of bass but I still have not managed to get anything from the sub when playing stereo music. Do I have to run two connections to the sub (one for Fixed in and one for Variable in)? Is there a sound mode that sends bass to the sub?

I haven't yet changed the speaker size for all of the other speakers but will do so and let you know. I can't imagine it mattering since I haven't heard any sound out of the bass yet at all when trying stereo music.
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post #4 of 19 Old 07-15-2012, 05:06 PM
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I flipped through the AVR's manual again and, as far as I can tell, as long as you have...
- your front L+R speakers set to "small",
- your subwoofer connected to the Subwoofer 1 or 2 output from the AVR,
- the subwoofer set to "Use" in the AVR's speaker set-up menu (which defaults the x-over to 80Hz), and
- you're not running Straight or Direct mode
...you should be getting bass out of your sub for stereo audio as well as multi-channel audio.

Since you're getting bass coming from your sub w/ multi-channel audio, signal is clearly getting to the sub, so I'm stumped as to why it's not getting there for two-channel... frown.gif
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post #5 of 19 Old 07-15-2012, 05:46 PM - Thread Starter
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I have yet to change the speaker size of the other speakers. You really think this could cause no sub activity on stereo content? I will go through everything in your list to test one more time and test but I have to wait for the family to finish watching Secret Millionaire. biggrin.gif

Thanks a ton for your time on this!
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post #6 of 19 Old 07-15-2012, 07:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

I flipped through the AVR's manual again and, as far as I can tell, as long as you have...
- your front L+R speakers set to "small",
- your subwoofer connected to the Subwoofer 1 or 2 output from the AVR,
- the subwoofer set to "Use" in the AVR's speaker set-up menu (which defaults the x-over to 80Hz), and
- you're not running Straight or Direct mode
...you should be getting bass out of your sub for stereo audio as well as multi-channel audio.
Since you're getting bass coming from your sub w/ multi-channel audio, signal is clearly getting to the sub, so I'm stumped as to why it's not getting there for two-channel... frown.gif

I feel like an idiot on this one. I let the YPAO set this up and I assumed since the movies sounded awesome that the sub was setup somewhat when it came to volume level, etc. When going back over all of the settings and setting all of my speakers to small, I saw that it had the sub volume to -4. I turned this to 0 and it has tons of bass. The good is that the bass issue is resolved. The bad is that YPAO seems to be a complete waste of time for me since I'm basically changing everything that it set up to begin with. Do you think the Audyssey of the Denon's will be any better? The Onkyo 616 sure set things up a lot closer to being accurate. Thanks again for your help!
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post #7 of 19 Old 07-15-2012, 07:19 PM
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^^^

no, it simply sounds like to me like you are "used to" having your sub "hot", and when it's not, you feel like you have "no bass from music"...

it's doubtful you would like audyssey better, as it would not only level it correctly, but also eq out the peaks that you are likely identifying as "good bass"...

what is often suggested (correctly so, imo) is to live with the "corrected" response for awhile before rejecting it, as...

- "louder" almost always "sounds better" to humans...
- what you are "used to" and conditioned to think is "right" will almost always "sound better"...

unless you are willing to be patient and give yourself a chance to become "de-conditioned", using any type of eq will not produce satisfactory results for you...

fwiw, you aren't the only person to feel the way you do... one of the most common "complaints" after running audyssey (or a version of ypao that eq's the sub) is "what happened to my bass?"... it didn't go anywhere... but it has been leveled and eq'd (more) flat...

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post #8 of 19 Old 07-15-2012, 07:26 PM
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The main reason your sub did not work with 2 channel music is because you set your front speakers large, which means they get the full range signal and nothing goes to the sub. Setting them to small then the sub gets everything below the crossover. Movies have an actual .1 tarck for the sub so that is why it was providing some output for multi channel movies.

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post #9 of 19 Old 07-16-2012, 04:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
no, it simply sounds like to me like you are "used to" having your sub "hot", and when it's not, you feel like you have "no bass from music"...
it's doubtful you would like audyssey better, as it would not only level it correctly, but also eq out the peaks that you are likely identifying as "good bass"...
what is often suggested (correctly so, imo) is to live with the "corrected" response for awhile before rejecting it, as...
- "louder" almost always "sounds better" to humans...
- what you are "used to" and conditioned to think is "right" will almost always "sound better"...
unless you are willing to be patient and give yourself a chance to become "de-conditioned", using any type of eq will not produce satisfactory results for you...
fwiw, you aren't the only person to feel the way you do... one of the most common "complaints" after running audyssey (or a version of ypao that eq's the sub) is "what happened to my bass?"... it didn't go anywhere... but it has been leveled and eq'd (more) flat...

I don't doubt that you are partially right but I don't think this is 100% about incorrect expectations. The Audyssey on first setup with the Onkyo 616 sounded much better. When testing over the last few days I put typical R&B music on which contains a large amount of bass. With the way the Yamaha setup my system I had the volume WAY up and when putting my hand on the sub and even my ear next to it, there was almost nothing. Surely this isn't the way it was meant to sound. When I tested the same on the Onkyo it was a lot better before tweaking anything on either. If I listen to this music on an iPod with no sound adjustments and a good set of headphones it has bass in it.
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post #10 of 19 Old 07-16-2012, 05:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

The main reason your sub did not work with 2 channel music is because you set your front speakers large, which means they get the full range signal and nothing goes to the sub. Setting them to small then the sub gets everything below the crossover. Movies have an actual .1 tarck for the sub so that is why it was providing some output for multi channel movies.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2

I think you are right for the most part but when testing last night I changed them back and forth from large to small many times to test. It wasn't until I adjusted the subwoofer from -4 to 0 that I could even tell the difference. Is it possible to use the YPAO auto setup while forcing the speakers to small? I think ccotenj is partially right and I need to play around with it to get the bass down. I'm just not sure how far down I need to go. I'm 100% that I don't want it to where it was before because if I'm pushing my receiver to 90% of its volume level while playing a song filled with bass and nothing whatsoever is coming from the sub then it can't be right.
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post #11 of 19 Old 07-16-2012, 05:37 AM
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Yes. Many receivers set speakers to large during auto configuration. Just turn it to small after auto setup. That's all you have to do.

Since your sub was fine at your previous house, but not in your new setup, your problem is most likely related to your room. Subs produce bass differently in different room environments.

If you are sitting further from it, that could reduce bass outputl.

Meanwhile, placement in a room can affect the frequency response of a sub. Could be your old location emphasized certain frequencies that are not emphasized now that made the sub sound better with music. A different location in this new room may work better than where you have it currently. For instance, putting a sub in a corner can often increase bass output for some frequencies. Different places along the same wall may also change the bass response in a room.

Also, even differences in flooring. Hardwood floors will transmit bass that you can feel more than concrete.

Is your room larger than before (including any open areas connecting to it)? If it's much larger, the sub could be challenged by the size of your space.

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post #12 of 19 Old 07-16-2012, 07:42 AM
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Like you, I had the same exact problem with bass up until last night. I have the Yamaha RX-V471 and I have ran my YPOA multiple times and every time I do it sets the front LR speakers to large and the subwoofer level at -4 as well. The only problem with this is there was almost no bass at all. I would go back into the setup and turn the sub level up to +4 just to get a smidgen of bass. The weird thing is that if I walked into one of the back bedrooms there was tons of bass and the walls were rattling. I was feeling like YPOA was bogus as well.

Based on what others in this forum have told me it sounded like I was in a bass null. Long story short, I placed my subwoofer in the far left corner behind an accent chair and low and behold there was all of my bass. I had to go back in and turn down the sub level back to 0 because it was too over powering. It was like night and day though! Sub position really is everything. As for YPOA, I will have to try running it again to see what it sets everything up as.

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post #13 of 19 Old 07-16-2012, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Yes. Many receivers set speakers to large during auto configuration. Just turn it to small after auto setup. That's all you have to do.
Since your sub was fine at your previous house, but not in your new setup, your problem is most likely related to your room. Subs produce bass differently in different room environments.
If you are sitting further from it, that could reduce bass outputl.
Meanwhile, placement in a room can affect the frequency response of a sub. Could be your old location emphasized certain frequencies that are not emphasized now that made the sub sound better with music. A different location in this new room may work better than where you have it currently. For instance, putting a sub in a corner can often increase bass output for some frequencies. Different places along the same wall may also change the bass response in a room.
Also, even differences in flooring. Hardwood floors will transmit bass that you can feel more than concrete.
Is your room larger than before (including any open areas connecting to it)? If it's much larger, the sub could be challenged by the size of your space.

The receiver is new to the equation. I thought I made that clear but see that I didn't. I had an older Pioneer receiver with no HDMI which is why I purchased the Yamaha.

I don't think it was the speaker placement as much as it was the settings but really it was a combination of everything. As I said previously, I literally put my hand on the sub and even put my ear in front of it and was getting almost nothing until I changed the settings from -4 to 0 on the sub volume.

OK, so where is the best placement for a sub? I don't have a ton of choices due to my living room configuration but I do have some play. I currently have it beside a recliner chair in the corner of the room pointed out. After I adjusted the bass level last night I have tons of bass so I need to adjust it down. As you can tell from my posts, I'm a bit put off as to the value of YPAO if I run it and then manually start making tons of changes. What's the point?

Won't me changing speakers from large to small throw the whole calibration off? I'm trying to estimate the actual value of YPAO. smile.gif
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post #14 of 19 Old 07-16-2012, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kainan View Post

As you can tell from my posts, I'm a bit put off as to the value of YPAO if I run it and then manually start making tons of changes. What's the point?
Won't me changing speakers from large to small throw the whole calibration off? I'm trying to estimate the actual value of YPAO. smile.gif

I hear you on that. Like I said, mine sets the front speakers to large as well. I use YPOA just for calibrating the distances of each speaker. Other than that I tweak most other levels.

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post #15 of 19 Old 07-16-2012, 01:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mark1280 View Post

I hear you on that. Like I said, mine sets the front speakers to large as well. I use YPOA just for calibrating the distances of each speaker. Other than that I tweak most other levels.

I guess I will do the same. This isn't good because people spend tons of time obsessing over YPAO and Audyssey and it had me focusing on it as a key selling point. If the only part I use is the distance then I could purchase a last year's model of Denon and have more power with more zone control for about the same price.
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post #16 of 19 Old 07-16-2012, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Kainan View Post

I guess I will do the same. This isn't good because people spend tons of time obsessing over YPAO and Audyssey and it had me focusing on it as a key selling point. If the only part I use is the distance then I could purchase a last year's model of Denon and have more power with more zone control for about the same price.

Yeah, I was just reading another thread and someone said that it is not Audyssey or Ypao setting the fronts to large, but instead the AVR manufacturer. I am not sure how true that is, but sounds like it is a common problem whether using Audessey or YPAO and that most people just always go back in and change all other speakers back to small. By setting the speakers to small it forces all LFE to go to the subwoofer instead of the other speakers. However, I am no expert. I am just going off of what I have learned her in the forums.

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post #17 of 19 Old 07-16-2012, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kainan View Post

The receiver is new to the equation. I thought I made that clear but see that I didn't. I had an older Pioneer receiver with no HDMI which is why I purchased the Yamaha.
I don't think it was the speaker placement as much as it was the settings but really it was a combination of everything. As I said previously, I literally put my hand on the sub and even put my ear in front of it and was getting almost nothing until I changed the settings from -4 to 0 on the sub volume.
OK, so where is the best placement for a sub? I don't have a ton of choices due to my living room configuration but I do have some play. I currently have it beside a recliner chair in the corner of the room pointed out. After I adjusted the bass level last night I have tons of bass so I need to adjust it down. As you can tell from my posts, I'm a bit put off as to the value of YPAO if I run it and then manually start making tons of changes. What's the point?
Won't me changing speakers from large to small throw the whole calibration off? I'm trying to estimate the actual value of YPAO. smile.gif

OK. I was thinking reading your initial post that you had moved. If you are in the same room with the same sub placement and only changed out the receiver, then definitely look to the receiver.

If you can turn up the subwoofer channel by 4db and everything is how you think it should be, then I wouldn't worry about moving it. As to where the most optimal position is, depends on your room. Every room is different.

Changing the speakers from large to small does not affect anything but allow you to set the crossover so that bass frequencies to go to the subwoofer. This is pretty standard on configuring most receivers.

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post #18 of 19 Old 07-16-2012, 01:48 PM
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For subwoofer placement, the easiest thing to do is a sub crawl:
- Place the subwoofer in the location where you would normally sit.
- Play a bass heavy CD or Blu-Ray (or test tones), and turn up the volume so you can really feel/hear the bass.
- Crawl around the listening room and listen for when the sub seems to sound the best. (IE. Listen for depth, loudness, tightness and definition)
- If possible, place the sub as close to this position as you can. This will ensure you have chosen the best location in the room.
- Now get off your knees and calibrate your system.

Also note that if your seating is in the center of the room, you are most likely sitting in a large null area, so you would want to place the sub closer to the seating position. Also note:
http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/speaker-setup-guidelines/subwoofer-placement-guidelines
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post #19 of 19 Old 07-18-2012, 04:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the info on sub placement and thanks to you guys for the troubleshooting tips. I'm still playing with the sound but will run the YPAO again tonight, switch the speakers to small and immediately check the sub setting. I've changed so many settings such as volume trim that I need to default them back. smile.gif

On the other hand, I got my Roku in and really like it. cool.gif
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