My upgrade to the Ken Kreisel MX-5000 Mk3 subs - Part 2 with measurements! - AVS Forum
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Old 07-24-2012, 08:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi all,

I am starting this thread to continue this thread, http://www.avsforum.com/t/1413234/my-upgrade-to-the-ken-kreisel-mx-5000-mk3-subs, which were unfortunately closed before any measurements were posted.

I have just read throught the whole thread, and I'm not exactly impressed by how it went. I do of course agree that when a claim is made, evidence should be provided. So I'm starting this one, and I'm providing some measurements smile.gif

I see some claims that you should have at least 100dB @ 10hz for it to be noticeably. That may very well be true, and I'll try to provide some measurements at that level as soon as possible. I'm sorry if anyone believes that FRs below that level is useless, but I still think it gives an indication of how the subs perform.

So, to my setup. I'm currently running a dual Ken Kreisel MX-5000mk3 / DXD-12012 config, not stacked. The rest is probably not that interesting in this case, but the fronts are Adam Audio Gamma and Center.
My temporary listening room is 4,2 x 4,2 meters and 2,4 meters between floor/ceiling.

A picture of the setup:


In the last thread there was a claim that the KKs went straight down to 10 hz. Here is my frequency response in my room. Measured are subs only, not fronts.


Equipment used:
- REW
- M-Audio Mobile Pre USB calibrated
- Behringer ECM8000 with correction file from Cross Spectrum calibration lab

I use the Anti-Mode Cinema room-correction on the subs, which does a pretty good job. There is no doubt these subs also sound really good, both for music and movie use. I think these will stick with me for a long time.

Now, it would have been nice to continue this discussion now that some measurements has been posted smile.gif
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Old 07-24-2012, 08:46 PM
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Nice setup! The extension is not really surprising given your room dimensions, you are getting significant PVG below 30hz.
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Old 07-24-2012, 08:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, mate! I knew I'd get a "thats now surprising" comment on this rolleyes.gif
So I really hope I can provide some FRs at a higher level for you! I just need to recalibrate the input levels for the measurement tools first before I do so.

However, I've had twin SVS PC-Ultras in a similar sized room without beeing close to a FR as this.
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Old 07-24-2012, 09:02 PM
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Most sealed subs still have high pass filters limiting their low end extension even in small rooms, this sub clearly isn't limited until under 10hz, which is nice.
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Old 07-24-2012, 10:58 PM
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Nice response! I never doubted they could low or if they would sound good. My question was how loud for how much. I can show my response to 5hz but it can also go to 120 dBs in room for about half the cost. That is not even maximum output! Of course I have more power and more subs. BTW, everything looks nice, the subs look great and so do your speakers! If you can go to 120 dBs at 10 hz with just 2 subs then you will be the talk of the forums! Please don't try that as it could do damage. You could run compression sweeps though. Just turn up the volume 3 dBs at a time and you can see when the response changes shape, that is when compression and distortion will start to rise. When it compresses it is at the max but without damage. You now will know to play 1-2 dBs under this. If not high enough for your goals, add more subs.

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Old 07-24-2012, 11:13 PM
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Nice setup and thanks for coming back to try and corroborate your point. On this forum it seems that one is judged a winner if certain SPL per dollar benchmarks are hit and a loser if one likes the sound or looks of a sub that has a lesser SPL per dollar value. Clearly you need good looking subs to go with your speakers.
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Old 07-25-2012, 03:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

Most sealed subs still have high pass filters limiting their low end extension even in small rooms, this sub clearly isn't limited until under 10hz, which is nice.
I agree, there doesn't seem to be any filters limiting the low end extension on the KKs. Generally speaking that can be a good or a bad thing, however at the levels I've used them they have not made any "knocking" sounds yet smile.gif I actually managed to make my Ultras hit the bottom some times, but there's probably just a matter of time before I do the same with the KKs. I have had some pretty loud testing sequences here (not measured), and are impressed that they have delievered given the levels I've played.
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Nice response! I never doubted they could low or if they would sound good. My question was how loud for how much. I can show my response to 5hz but it can also go to 120 dBs in room for about half the cost. That is not even maximum output! Of course I have more power and more subs. BTW, everything looks nice, the subs look great and so do your speakers! If you can go to 120 dBs at 10 hz with just 2 subs then you will be the talk of the forums! Please don't try that as it could do damage. You could run compression sweeps though. Just turn up the volume 3 dBs at a time and you can see when the response changes shape, that is when compression and distortion will start to rise. When it compresses it is at the max but without damage. You now will know to play 1-2 dBs under this. If not high enough for your goals, add more subs.
I know that it's possible to make some immense DIY-systems if you're a real handyman. But DIY-systems (good ones that is) really aren't comparable with the commercially available subwoofers on the marked. So in my opinion that's a wasted comparison in general. For most people there are factors like wanting to get a finished product out of the box, the finish of a product, not enough knowledge or time to create and build DIY projects. Hence we'll have to relate to the commercially available products. But have no doubt, when it comes to DIY I have heard some insane systems that'll put most commercial products in the shadow.

When it comes to maximum output there probably are some thresholds at certain levels, but you can't judge the performance of a sub based only on the maximum output. Also, you cannot judge a sub on spl per dollar value. A sub performs the same no matter what it costs, and it's up to each if they want to pay for it or not. And when I speak about performance I'm not only talking spl, but how it actually sounds. The KKs for instance blends like few other subs I've heard when used for stereo listening, which is an important factor for me as well as the low end performance when used as LFE speakers when watching movies. As I've said, I haven't measured max spl yet, but I really don't miss anything when watching movies. And trust me when I say that I like to turn up the volume smile.gif And I really love the low end extension in addition to the chest hitting bass.

I really doubt that I'll reach 120dB @ 10hz, and I won't try either smile.gif But that's not a goal for me anyway. If I was in a dB-drag contest, then maybe wink.gif
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Originally Posted by Glashub View Post

Nice setup and thanks for coming back to try and corroborate your point. On this forum it seems that one is judged a winner if certain SPL per dollar benchmarks are hit and a loser if one likes the sound or looks of a sub that has a lesser SPL per dollar value. Clearly you need good looking subs to go with your speakers.
Thanks, Glashub. My goal was hoping to be able to continue the discussion as it should have been in the last thead.
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Old 07-25-2012, 05:19 AM
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Hahaha. Vindication. I'll admit it: I am very much surprised, your room's size notwithstanding. Well, right on smile.gif

Once again, I am sorry to take a sledgehammer to so small and fragile a nut. -- Richard Dawkins, The Greatest Show On Earth
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Old 07-25-2012, 06:21 AM
 
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Old 07-25-2012, 08:50 AM
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I am just saying if one wants reference level spl's from 5hz and above then multiple subs are needed.

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Old 07-25-2012, 03:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Totally agree with you on that one, MKtheater.
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Old 07-26-2012, 12:15 AM
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Thanks for sharing!!! The FR curve is very nice! I think the Anti-Mode Cinema room-correction kit has a 20Hz-or-30Hz-lift option as does the Anti-Mode 8033C. Is it used when you're measuring? Many thanks!
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Old 07-26-2012, 05:46 AM - Thread Starter
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It's correct that the Anti-Mode has filters like Lift25 and Lift35 which boosts these frequencies. However I also found out when measuring that the Anti-Mode actually applies a cut-off filter at 20hz (user manual says 10hz, which is obviously wrong) when using any of these filters or the filtered "flat" mode.

When you set the Anti-Mode to use corrections without any of these filters it doesn't apply any low end filter. When any of the filter are used the FR drops like a stone @ 20hz.

I didn't use any of these filters before, and certainly won't be using them now that I found out about this.
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Old 07-26-2012, 09:02 AM
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Nice! I have the M&K S150 set paired with an MX-350. Absolutely love it and may consider purchasing Ken's new speakers when the time is right... smile.gif
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Old 07-26-2012, 09:25 AM
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BTW, blending with your speakers has more to do with how your response is at the crossover. All subs can blend when done right, but matching dynamics and spl capabilities make it even better. I am in the camp once you get the spl and compression out of the way and the subs have flat response they will sound more alike than different. The thing that separates great subs apart are spl and extension. Since you are getting extension it leaves spl. Now the goal of the user will determine what spl is needed. People around here assume great sound quality, they look for spl and extension. Many want good looks as well. When the HSU sealed sub came out everyone was yelling out new HSU sub flat to 10hz! Most responded but at what spl? People assumed it will sound great coming from HSU, same goes for the KK sub. This is why I am asking these questions. I already know it will sound as good as any.

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amps-5 Adcom 555 in 850 watt monoblock mode
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Old 07-26-2012, 06:34 PM - Thread Starter
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So basically all you're saying is that extension and spl is all that matters? I agree that those two factors are important, but some might disagree that everything that measures the same sounds the same.
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Old 07-26-2012, 08:04 PM
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I guess you over looked what I wrote. I said assuming the same sound quality. There are many measurements that will tell you if the subs will sound the same. Sound quality has to have a flat response to begin with. Then during playback distortion has to be low and with no compression or you lose the dynamic attack of the sound. This has huge effects on sound quality. Blind tests have shown that once the measurements are equal sound differences are minimal at best. Play those subs with a bumped up 40 hz region, with higher distortion, or compressed and the sound will change. The reason the more expensive subs sound better are because they are flatter, wider bandwidth, less distortion, no compression, and higher playing levels.

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Old 07-27-2012, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenti View Post

So basically all you're saying is that extension and spl is all that matters? I agree that those two factors are important, but some might disagree that everything that measures the same sounds the same.

Apart from extension and spl there are a whole range of other parameters which will affect how a sub sounds. MK has listed a number of them. I'll also add group delay.

Just check out the reviews by Ilkka and Ricci and notice the various graphs and tests they conduct on one sub. Of course I don't think there are any 2 subs which measure exactly the same in all parameters.
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Old 07-27-2012, 09:21 AM
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Yeah, I have not mentioned group delay because once a sub reaches a certain point, the level of subs discussed, the group delay won't matter. All the subs mentioned have that covered easily. So I am discussing already know good sounding subs. I am not comparing crap subs to this one. I am removing sound quality from the equation because at this level the differences are more about what I mentioned.

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amps-5 Adcom 555 in 850 watt monoblock mode
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LCR-Dual stacked BFM DR-250's
Surrounds- Dual stacked BFM W10's
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Old 07-27-2012, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

BTW, blending with your speakers has more to do with how your response is at the crossover. All subs can blend when done right, but matching dynamics and spl capabilities make it even better. I am in the camp once you get the spl and compression out of the way and the subs have flat response they will sound more alike than different. The thing that separates great subs apart are spl and extension. Since you are getting extension it leaves spl. Now the goal of the user will determine what spl is needed. People around here assume great sound quality, they look for spl and extension. Many want good looks as well. When the HSU sealed sub came out everyone was yelling out new HSU sub flat to 10hz! Most responded but at what spl? People assumed it will sound great coming from HSU, same goes for the KK sub. This is why I am asking these questions. I already know it will sound as good as any.

Given that the threshold of audibility at 10Hz is 100 db, before I would make a purchase of any sub claiming "flat response to ~10HZ" more compression sweeps at levels over 100 db would be highly desirable. This applies to the HSU sealed ULS 15 which MKtheater talks about in the above bolded passage.
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Old 07-27-2012, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

Given that the threshold of audibility at 10Hz is 100 db, before I would make a purchase of any sub claiming "flat response to ~10HZ" more compression sweeps at levels over 100 db would be highly desirable. This applies to the HSU sealed ULS 15 which MKtheater talks about in the above bolded passage.

Yes this is true but I really don't care about hearing 10hz but rather feeling 10hz and it does not need to be 100dBs. However, you need to be flat to even feel it properly. Compression sweeps really tell you lots of good info. When my subs compress that is when my THD usually goes over 10% THD so I made sure I can play at my levels at my bandwidth under 10% THD.

AVR-Yamaha A830
amps-5 Adcom 555 in 850 watt monoblock mode
sub amp-Sanway FP14K
LCR-Dual stacked BFM DR-250's
Surrounds- Dual stacked BFM W10's
subs-12 SI 18's ported 6hz.
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Old 07-29-2012, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Yes this is true but I really don't care about hearing 10hz but rather feeling 10hz and it does not need to be 100dBs. However, you need to be flat to even feel it properly. Compression sweeps really tell you lots of good info. When my subs compress that is when my THD usually goes over 10% THD so I made sure I can play at my levels at my bandwidth under 10% THD.

I think we are saying the same thing. Whether you call it hearing or feeling 100 db seems to be the lowest SPL that people can sense, but you have much more experience with subs that go below 10Hz, so I defer to you on that issue.

As an aside, I find it of interest that Bruce Thigpen's TRW-17 produces 110 db from 3Hz-25Hz. I think that Bruce had a clear understanding of what it takes to perceive frequencies at 10Hz and lower. Too bad I can't begin to afford the Rotary. Way out of my league.

Someday I would like it we could arrange a demo of your system. I know that I would be completely blown away smile.gif
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Old 08-04-2012, 02:52 AM
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I have said it before kenti but fantastic set up you have there smile.gif


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Old 08-05-2012, 05:40 AM
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How are you getting on now that they've had time to settle down?

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Old 08-07-2012, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

I think we are saying the same thing. Whether you call it hearing or feeling 100 db seems to be the lowest SPL that people can sense, but you have much more experience with subs that go below 10Hz, so I defer to you on that issue.
As an aside, I find it of interest that Bruce Thigpen's TRW-17 produces 110 db from 3Hz-25Hz. I think that Bruce had a clear understanding of what it takes to perceive frequencies at 10Hz and lower. Too bad I can't begin to afford the Rotary. Way out of my league.
Someday I would like it we could arrange a demo of your system. I know that I would be completely blown away smile.gif

What can we learn from Bruce Thigpen whose Rotary Subwoofer is designed to produce 110 db from ~3Hz-25Hz? It is also worth noting that Bruce seriously considered making the Rotary Subwoofer capable of delivering 120 db. Some of the most experienced professionals consider the Thigpen to be the last word in subwoofers. People like Tom Nousaine who tested hundreds of subwoofers many of them for Sound&Vision magazine. At least one of our members may have experienced the Thigpen in St. Pats Cathedral in New York City.


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Old 08-07-2012, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

What can we learn from Bruce Thigpen whose Rotary Subwoofer is designed to produce 110 db from ~3Hz-25Hz? It is also worth noting that Bruce seriously considered making the Rotary Subwoofer capable of delivering 120 db. Some of the most experienced professionals consider the Thigpen to be the last word in subwoofers. People like Tom Nousaine who tested hundreds of subwoofers many of them for Sound&Vision magazine. At least one of our members may have experienced the Thigpen in St. Pats Cathedral in New York City.
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Im trying to find anything of relevance in your post that is related to the subject of the thread:(

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Old 08-08-2012, 06:13 AM
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Im trying to find anything of relevance in your post that is related to the subject of the thread:(

When someone talks about response to under 10Hz as in post number 1, the TRW 17 is the last word in response down to the subsonics but the price of admission is prohibitive for all but the well-heeled.

If you want to discuss this further please take it to PM smile.gif
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Old 08-08-2012, 07:11 AM
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Forget the TRW, I can beat it for $3875.

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amps-5 Adcom 555 in 850 watt monoblock mode
sub amp-Sanway FP14K
LCR-Dual stacked BFM DR-250's
Surrounds- Dual stacked BFM W10's
subs-12 SI 18's ported 6hz.
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Old 08-08-2012, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

When someone talks about response to under 10Hz as in post number 1, the TRW 17 is the last word in response down to the subsonics but the price of admission is prohibitive for all but the well-heeled.
If you want to discuss this further please take it to PM smile.gif

I know that you are well intentioned, however, please bear in mind that I specifically mentioned that the TRW 17 is for the well heeled.

If you visit the TRW web site you will see that the TRW 17 is in the Guinness Book of Records.

I don't want you to be short-changed. I can't imagine what might happen if you called the Guinness Book of Records smile.gif
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Old 08-08-2012, 11:59 AM
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Why are you quoting and responding to yourself?

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