advice SB12-NSD vs. VTF-2 MK4 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 65 Old 07-26-2012, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
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I have a large living space (probably over 6000 cu ft - lofted ceilings) and I believe the amp in my old sub (Klipsch KSW-10) just went after four years. Not looking to repair it.

Instead looking for new, better sub. Want something that is great for music and will really compliment my towers (paradigm studio 60s). This will be used in HT, but not my primary concern.

I am very concerned about decor. The studio 60s are relatively sleek in the universe of solid towers. I am not looking to add a massive black box to my setup if it can be prevented.

Size of the SVS sub is the same as my current sub, with more power and a larger woofer.

Is there a noticeable difference in the performance of these two subs (up or down). I am very inclined to go with the smaller SVS unless it will not do anything for my sound.

thanks in advance.
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post #2 of 65 Old 07-26-2012, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Purpose View Post

I have a large living space (probably over 6000 cu ft - lofted ceilings) and I believe the amp in my old sub (Klipsch KSW-10) just went after four years. Not looking to repair it.
Instead looking for new, better sub. Want something that is great for music and will really compliment my towers (paradigm studio 60s). This will be used in HT, but not my primary concern.
I am very concerned about decor. The studio 60s are relatively sleek in the universe of solid towers. I am not looking to add a massive black box to my setup if it can be prevented.
Size of the SVS sub is the same as my current sub, with more power and a larger woofer.
Is there a noticeable difference in the performance of these two subs (up or down). I am very inclined to go with the smaller SVS unless it will not do anything for my sound.
thanks in advance.

According to Audioholics, the SB-12 NSD is good in rooms ranging from 1,500 to 3.000 cubic feet.

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/sb12-nsd-subwoofer/sb12-nsd-conclusion

The HSU VTF-2 is also not made for rooms sized 6,000 cubic feet.

You should consider the Energy S10.3 which goes on sale frequently for $200 or less. Or even better get a pair of Energy S10.3.
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post #3 of 65 Old 07-26-2012, 01:40 PM - Thread Starter
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probably need a better receiver to connect two subs, unless I am missing something on my SR605.

Will look into it.

thanks
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post #4 of 65 Old 07-26-2012, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Purpose View Post

probably need a better receiver to connect two subs, unless I am missing something on my SR605.
Will look into it.
thanks

All you need is a "Y Adaptor". Costs less than $10. Radio Shack has them for ~$5-$6. Better ones run a little more smile.gif
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post #5 of 65 Old 07-26-2012, 01:57 PM - Thread Starter
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thanks, why not just buy two STF-2s at that point
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post #6 of 65 Old 07-26-2012, 06:01 PM
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With that size of a room, I would be looking at a VTF15h at the very least. Maybe an Epik Empire. You have a lot of space to pressurize.
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post #7 of 65 Old 07-27-2012, 07:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Gotcha, but it is also an NYC apartment. Not looking to shake the foundation, as my neighbors might not like that.

Does that change your thoughts at all?
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post #8 of 65 Old 07-27-2012, 08:54 AM
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Is it possible to talk to your neighbors to see how much sub you can get away with? That's what I did and ended up with two SB12nsds and a PB12 plus in my Queens apartment. Also what's your price range?
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post #9 of 65 Old 07-27-2012, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kesando View Post

Is it possible to talk to your neighbors to see how much sub you can get away with? That's what I did and ended up with two SB12nsds and a PB12 plus in my Queens apartment. Also what's your price range?

Hmmm
How do you have the three set up.

I only share one wall and the floor with anyone. the one wall is through a second bedroom/ bath so not too worried about them. I am a little worried about the downstairs neighbors though, which is why i dont want to shake too hard. Dont know the downstairs folks, so I wouldnt want to bring something to their attention that they have not noticed yet.

Price range, I am willing to go up to the PB12, so about 750. Dont want to spend more than that. That said, between that and the VTF-2 MK4, I would probably get the Hsu given that they are both ported and one is about 200 less all told. concerned about the size of that box though. Loft style apartment, no real place to hide anything that large.
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post #10 of 65 Old 07-27-2012, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Purpose View Post

Hmmm
How do you have the three set up.
I only share one wall and the floor with anyone. the one wall is through a second bedroom/ bath so not too worried about them. I am a little worried about the downstairs neighbors though, which is why i dont want to shake too hard. Dont know the downstairs folks, so I wouldnt want to bring something to their attention that they have not noticed yet.
Price range, I am willing to go up to the PB12, so about 750. Dont want to spend more than that. That said, between that and the VTF-2 MK4, I would probably get the Hsu given that they are both ported and one is about 200 less all told. concerned about the size of that box though. Loft style apartment, no real place to hide anything that large.

Using a Y splitter from the AVR, I have the plus on one side of my mains and the two SBs are stacked and daisy chained on the other side of my mains on the side of the room that opens up to the rest of the apt. This is a wall that's shared with my neighbors living room but they don't seem to mind. I just don't blast them all the time or in the middle of the night. I also use isolation pads under my subs to help decouple them from the floor.

As for your price range, the PB12nsd might be your best bet. You could also consider the sealed Power Sound X15 in the price range or save a little more and get the Epik Empire which is known to have plenty of mid bass slam. These are larger subs, but not mammoth sized like the HSU VTF-15
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post #11 of 65 Old 07-27-2012, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Purpose View Post

thanks, why not just buy two STF-2s at that point

Because the STF-2 is much more expensive than the Energy S10.3 which been on sale for as little as $170 shipped. Roughly half the price of the STF-2.

The Energy has an enviable frequency response. Nothing near its sale price does better, especially when it was on sale for $170 delivered.

507Energy_3.jpg
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post #12 of 65 Old 07-27-2012, 10:06 AM - Thread Starter
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I hear you, but lets say I am not stuck at that price point. And lets say I might consider a Rythmik F12. Lets call the max budget sub 999.

What I would like is a GREAT sub that is not massive.. The VTF-2 MK4 is massive, so massive I dont want to pull the trigger.

Lets talk about great subs with smaller form factors. I hear you on the Energy but they dont seem to be as highly regarded as some of the other subs discussed on this forum. I could easily do the energy subs, but If I could get something amazing that doesnt look like I parked a yugo in my livingroom I would prefer that.
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post #13 of 65 Old 07-27-2012, 10:17 AM
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How large of a sub is acceptable? Where do you plan to place it?
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post #14 of 65 Old 07-27-2012, 10:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kesando View Post

How large of a sub is acceptable? Where do you plan to place it?

I would prefer to stay under approx. 17 inches in any measurement. Not interested in 10in woofers.

Primary focus is music. Not so into couch shaking explosions in movies. Those may happen a couple of times a month. Music is played every day.

Setup:
50 in panny plasma on stand. stand probably about 55 inches wide. Paradigm studio 60s flank on either side.
Set up is against one long wall in apt. livingroom.JPG 1469k .JPG file

See photo, although TV is now flush against the wall.

Plan is to place sub to the left of the TV and the left monitor (not pictured). previously it was on the other side. Figured this will get the sound more in the center of the room.

thanks

I have seen the following that might fit
Rythmik F12
SB-12
Emotiva X-ref 12
energy S10.3
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post #15 of 65 Old 07-27-2012, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Purpose View Post

I would prefer to stay under approx. 17 inches in any measurement. Not interested in 10in woofers.
Primary focus is music. Not so into couch shaking explosions in movies. Those may happen a couple of times a month. Music is played every day.
Setup:
50 in panny plasma on stand. stand probably about 55 inches wide. Paradigm studio 60s flank on either side.
Set up is against one long wall in apt. livingroom.JPG 1469k .JPG file
See photo, although TV is now flush against the wall.
Plan is to place sub to the left of the TV and the left monitor (not pictured). previously it was on the other side. Figured this will get the sound more in the center of the room.
thanks
I have seen the following that might fit
Rythmik F12
SB-12
Emotiva X-ref 12
energy S10.3

The Energy is a 10" sub but for the price you could consider two of them with cash to spare. That said, from the list you posted, the SB12nsd would be my choice for a 12" sub for the money. In the case of the Rythmik, I would pass on the F12 and step up to the F15 for $100 more considering how large of a space you are working with.Both SVS and Rythmik make great sealed subs for music. If you are flexible on size, the Power Sound XS15 is also worth consideration and though untested, should be a great performer. If you are willing to save a little bit more, the SVS SB13 Ultra (formerly known as plus) would be perfect. It is a sealed, 13" sub that is a 17" cube. According to SVS, it should have twice the output of the SB12nsd and will be available in full Piano and black oak finishes by September.

If you can't wait until then, there is a B-Stock cherry SB13plus available for $1099 shipped:
http://www.svsound.com/outlet-specials
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post #16 of 65 Old 07-28-2012, 09:56 AM
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Since your budget seems flexible the B-Stock SVS SB-12 Plus for $1,099 is a good deal.

With regard to the forthcoming SVS SB-13 Ultra, even if they offer a pre-order 5% discount, you may be looking at ~$1,450...should be a great product smile.gif
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post #17 of 65 Old 07-31-2012, 06:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the advice.

Decided to give he SB12 a run. 45 days to try. On the off chance I think I need more, I will return and move up to the Rythmik f12. Not willing to sacrifice 20+ inches of floor space in any direction

thanks again.
B
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post #18 of 65 Old 07-31-2012, 06:58 PM
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Please let me know your experiences - the small form factor of the SB12 makes it very appealing.
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post #19 of 65 Old 08-01-2012, 02:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Please let me know your experiences - the small form factor of the SB12 makes it very appealing.

will do
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post #20 of 65 Old 08-03-2012, 09:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by xaelia View Post

Please let me know your experiences - the small form factor of the SB12 makes it very appealing.

sb12 arrived today.

25 x 18 open living/ dining space with fairly open kitchen off that area. ceilings about 14ft.

SB12 is plenty for me. biggrin.gif

Music sounds amazing. Movies are good as well. sitting on my couch watching "defiance" and I can feel the bass in some of the louder scenes. I certainly don't need anything more powerful. Absolutely the right decision for my needs.
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post #21 of 65 Old 08-04-2012, 10:24 AM
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Glad you are happy. The SB12s are surprising little subs for sure
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post #22 of 65 Old 08-04-2012, 02:18 PM
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Neat! Thanks for posting.
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post #23 of 65 Old 08-04-2012, 06:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kesando View Post

Glad you are happy. The SB12s are surprising little subs for sure

Thanks again for the help choosing.

Surprising is an understatement. The sounds that come from this relatively small box are astounding.
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post #24 of 65 Old 08-04-2012, 07:18 PM
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Wow another very happy SB12 NSD owner. Glad your happy, SVS must have done a awesome job with this small sub. Just might have to check in to getting a pair.
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post #25 of 65 Old 08-04-2012, 07:26 PM
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They are great subs. Josh Ricci's review was spot on. You cannot beat the form factor for the wife smile.gif
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post #26 of 65 Old 08-05-2012, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

With that size of a room, I would be looking at a VTF15h at the very least. Maybe an Epik Empire. You have a lot of space to pressurize.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Purpose View Post

sb12 arrived today.
SB12 is plenty for me. :DI certainly don't need anything more powerful. Absolutely the right decision for my needs.

Purpose, you are a good example of the discrepancy between what some people actually need, and the amount of headroom forum members think everybody needs.
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post #27 of 65 Old 08-05-2012, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by warpdrive View Post

Purpose, you are a good example of the discrepancy between what some people actually need, and the amount of headroom forum members think everybody needs.

There are plenty of posts here by folks who bought far more powerful subs and were left underwhelmed. Personally I am sure I would not be happy with a single 12". Besides that, he doesn't know what he is missing if he hasn't heard it yet.
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post #28 of 65 Old 08-06-2012, 07:45 AM - Thread Starter
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There are plenty of posts here by folks who bought far more powerful subs and were left underwhelmed. Personally I am sure I would not be happy with a single 12". Besides that, he doesn't know what he is missing if he hasn't heard it yet.

This completely conflates need with want. I know there are bigger, more powerful subs out there. I personally dont NEED one. How does not knowing "what he is missing" equate with need? For example, I own a car, a fairly nice car. But I also am aware that there are ferrari vehicles out there. I havent driven one but I feel fairly comfortable saying I dont NEED it.

Moreover, it goes exactly to what warpdrive was saying. By your logic, because some needed more power, everyone needs more power. I made it pretty clear that I did not what to shake and rattle my home. That others were underwhelmed with bigger subs is obviously a legit part of the discussion. As is the fact that you dont believe that you would be happy with the SB12. However, it does not mean that everyone needs that much power. "some people" actually need less. Like I said, the SB12 is plenty for me.
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post #29 of 65 Old 08-06-2012, 08:54 AM
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Edit: You know what? I take that back. Never mind I said it smile.gif

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post #30 of 65 Old 08-06-2012, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Purpose View Post

This completely conflates need with want. I know there are bigger, more powerful subs out there. I personally dont NEED one. How does not knowing "what he is missing" equate with need? For example, I own a car, a fairly nice car. But I also am aware that there are ferrari vehicles out there. I havent driven one but I feel fairly comfortable saying I dont NEED it.
Moreover, it goes exactly to what warpdrive was saying. By your logic, because some needed more power, everyone needs more power. I made it pretty clear that I did not what to shake and rattle my home. That others were underwhelmed with bigger subs is obviously a legit part of the discussion. As is the fact that you dont believe that you would be happy with the SB12. However, it does not mean that everyone needs that much power. "some people" actually need less. Like I said, the SB12 is plenty for me.

Lol, no one 'needs' a subwoofer to begin with. You only need enough to achieve your goal. if your goal is modest, a smaller sub will do. However, your goals may change if you hear something with more palpable dynamics. All I know I is I have never went from wanting more to wanting less.
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