About a grand to spend, what 2 subs for reference level bass? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 34 Old 08-08-2012, 07:41 PM - Thread Starter
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If you wanted 2 subwoofers and had about a grand to spend, what would you buy for the deepest bass?

I will be using Chase HT speakers as the speakers but not sure what subs to get.

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post #2 of 34 Old 08-08-2012, 08:00 PM
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If you wanted 2 subwoofers and had about a grand to spend, what would you buy for the deepest bass?
Based strictly on that information and nothing else, I'd go with dual Epik Legends or dual Outlaw LFM-1 Pluses (when on sale).
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post #3 of 34 Old 08-08-2012, 09:11 PM - Thread Starter
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I was looking at those Epiks. I need to read the threads on these, I heard of some issues with amps.

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post #4 of 34 Old 08-08-2012, 09:56 PM
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I don't know of any pair of subs that will get you to actual reference volume for $1000, unless you don't mind giving up a bit of the low frequencies nearing 20hz. Close, but not actually to reference in a typical sized room.

Reference bass is 115dB at the listening position and you lose spl as your seating position is further back from the subs. To get to reference levels with good clean sound you either need a small room on a $1000 budget, need to sacrifice extension, or up your budget somewhat significantly.

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post #5 of 34 Old 08-09-2012, 12:33 PM
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" Reference Level"..... This is gonna turn out bad, i can just feel it
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post #6 of 34 Old 08-09-2012, 12:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

" Reference Level"..... This is gonna turn out bad, i can just feel it

Yeah it could.

I guess I should have asked best value subwoofers for $1,000.

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post #7 of 34 Old 08-09-2012, 12:58 PM
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DIY....

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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post #8 of 34 Old 08-09-2012, 01:14 PM
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Yep, DIY. Otehrwise you are looking at buying the biggest baddest sub you can afford for $1000 and then getting a second one later.
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post #9 of 34 Old 08-09-2012, 01:35 PM
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There is a new company called Powersoundaudio that should start shipping next week, I hope anyway. Good bang for the buck on the XV-15's with the 5% discount and 10% on a pair. Unfortunately there is no owner feedback or any professional reviews yet, (at least that I know of) but these subs should perform just by who is building them.


http://www.powersoundaudio.com/
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post #10 of 34 Old 08-09-2012, 01:40 PM
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I would consider this Crystal Acoustics THX Ultra 2 Certified subwoofer. http://www.amazon.com/Crystal-Acoustics-TX-12SUB-Certified-Subwoofer/dp/B0051F0UAO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1344540489&sr=8-1&keywords=crystal+acoustics+subwoofer

Note that the nomenclature is messed up and that you MUST look at the right model. The correct model is sold by Amazon for $749 in the above link. This sub just got a rave review by Jim Wilson.

You might consider buying one of these now and adding a second later. According to THX, you should end up with several of them to achieve true reference level. Even one of these would be pretty awesome if you could place it nearfield. That is, within 4 feet of the listening position.

Here is the link to the review by Jim Wilson:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1421038/the-official-crystal-acoustics-subwoofer-owners-thread
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post #11 of 34 Old 08-09-2012, 02:14 PM
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#1 its too expensive.. #2 200 watts? I Epik Legend would roll right over that thing. He's way better off getting 2 Legends.
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post #12 of 34 Old 08-09-2012, 02:18 PM
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One hsu vtf 15 would be nice for a g also.

butter and jelly please.
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post #13 of 34 Old 08-09-2012, 02:21 PM
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You could name a bunch of single subs for under a g.. But he wants 2..
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post #14 of 34 Old 08-09-2012, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LowTech1 View Post

You could name a bunch of single subs for under a g.. But he wants 2..

@ reference level even. Guess he could always blow out 2 subs and spend more in the long run.

butter and jelly please.
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post #15 of 34 Old 08-09-2012, 02:30 PM
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He's probably not going to get 2 subs under a grand that will take a beating like that. The legends might or should. PC12-NSD's should but that's $1500.
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post #16 of 34 Old 08-09-2012, 02:35 PM
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Assuming cosmetics isn't the highest priority (because I'll admit the crystal acoustic sub is a looker) I'd spend a bit more $ and recommend the HSU VTF-15H for $1000, or the Epik Empire for $800, or the SVSound of your choice in that $1000 range, over the Crystal Acoustic sub for $750. (all of these subs I've heard and measured in my room, and in my opinion/experience the Crystal Acoustic is the weakest of these options --- though it is the cheapest). It won't get you to reference in pairs, their THX cert requires four of them. (see this link - http://www.crystalaudiovideo.com/ProductCatalog/Speakers/Subwoofers/THX.aspx)

The Crystal Acoustic sub doesn't scale very well either IMO. If you are spending $3K on these subs to get four at $750 a piece for THX Ultra spec, you are spending $3k poorly compared to alternatives like the JTR S2, the JTR Captivator, the Seaton Submersive HP, a pair of LMS-5400 or UXL 18s, or a FunkyWaves LMS-5400 setup. Each of these alternatives will get you well beyond THX reference level bass with just a single unit. (Albeit much greater expense ---and sans the official licensed THX badge). THX certification simply specifies reference level volume to 20hz (-6dB), which is a easy goal post that each of the aforementioned subs exceed for less or equal to the total $3k.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1408856/crystal-acoustics-tx-12sub-omnimic-frequency-response-graphs/0_20


As I mentioned earlier. No two subs retail subs or ID subs for $1000 are going to get you to reference flat level bass in a typical home theater room. You can't even do it with DIY I don't believe. If there's a way - lets talk. KCNitro07 just spent $1k on DIY setup and he's not getting reference level bass in a small room. He used Dayton Audio Titanic MK III pair of drivers, in a couple DIY cabs he made, with some deckrestore as the cosmetic finish, and a Inuke DSP 3000 amp. Total price is right at 1K. Sounds good - but not reference, even in his small room. He can't take the volume much over -8dB without encountering clip lights on the INuke DSP amp. I've measured with him, so I know first hand.

Best pair of subs for $1000? Hard to say. I'd look at Epik or HSU or Outlaw -- there aren't many games in town. You could also do what KCNitro did for DIY - that worked out okay.

PICs
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1415823/2-dayton-titanic-mk-iii-15s-or-1-tc-sounds-lms-r-15/80_20

Measurements
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1415823/2-dayton-titanic-mk-iii-15s-or-1-tc-sounds-lms-r-15/100_20

He's fairly flat in room to 25hz, and then drops by 5-7dB to 20hz using REW calculated DSP on the Inuke. Almost THX spec if he could actually hit 109dB at 20hz which isn't going to happen with just a pair. He'd need four and that's $2k, not $1k.




If it were my $1000 and that was my hard ceiling - I'd buy a HSU VTF-15H and call it a day (not reference level but a darn good sub for right at $1k. Add a second if you find you need it and when you can afford it.

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post #17 of 34 Old 08-09-2012, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LowTech1 View Post

#1 its too expensive.. #2 200 watts? I Epik Legend would roll right over that thing. He's way better off getting 2 Legends.

Maybe but the Legends (as opposed to the Empires) seem to have a disproportionate number of amp failures. Please don't take my word for it, there is a good bit to read in the EPIK thread.
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post #18 of 34 Old 08-09-2012, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Assuming cosmetics isn't the highest priority (because I'll admit the crystal acoustic sub is a looker) I'd spend a bit more $ and recommend the HSU VTF-15H for $1000, or the Epik Empire for $800, or the SVSound of your choice in that $1000 range, over the Crystal Acoustic sub for $750. (all of these subs I've heard and measured in my room, and in my opinion/experience the Crystal Acoustic is the weakest of these options --- though it is the cheapest). It won't get you to reference in pairs, their THX cert requires four of them. (see this link - http://www.crystalaudiovideo.com/ProductCatalog/Speakers/Subwoofers/THX.aspx)
The Crystal Acoustic sub doesn't scale very well either IMO. If you are spending $3K on these subs to get four at $750 a piece for THX Ultra spec, you are spending $3k poorly compared to alternatives like the JTR S2, the JTR Captivator, the Seaton Submersive HP, a pair of LMS-5400 or UXL 18s, or a FunkyWaves LMS-5400 setup. Each of these alternatives will get you well beyond THX reference level bass with just a single unit. (Albeit much greater expense ---and sans the official licensed THX badge). THX certification simply specifies reference level volume to 20hz (-6dB), which is a easy goal post that each of the aforementioned subs exceed for less or equal to the total $3k.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1408856/crystal-acoustics-tx-12sub-omnimic-frequency-response-graphs/0_20
As I mentioned earlier. No two subs retail subs or ID subs for $1000 are going to get you to reference flat level bass in a typical home theater room. You can't even do it with DIY I don't believe. If there's a way - lets talk. KCNitro07 just spent $1k on DIY setup and he's not getting reference level bass in a small room. He used Dayton Audio Titanic MK III pair of drivers, in a couple DIY cabs he made, with some deckrestore as the cosmetic finish, and a Inuke DSP 3000 amp. Total price is right at 1K, and he is still about 8dB below reference capability even in a small room. Sounds good - but not reference. I've helped him measure, so I know first hand.
Best pair of subs for $1000? Hard to say. I'd look at Epik or HSU or Outlaw -- there aren't many games in town. You could also do what KCNitro did for DIY - that worked out okay.
PICs
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1415823/2-dayton-titanic-mk-iii-15s-or-1-tc-sounds-lms-r-15/80_20
Measurements
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1415823/2-dayton-titanic-mk-iii-15s-or-1-tc-sounds-lms-r-15/100_20
He's fairly flat in room to 25hz, and then drops by 5-7dB to 20hz using REW calculated DSP on the Inuke. Almost THX spec if he could actually hit 109dB at 20hz which isn't going to happen with just a pair. He'd need four and that's $2k, not $1k.
If it were my $1000 and that was my hard ceiling - I'd buy a HSU VTF-15H and call it a day (not reference level but a darn good sub for right at $1k. Add a second when you can afford it.

Hey buddy, IIRC your room wasn't a good match for the Crystal and Jim Wilson had better results.

I don't really have a dog in this fight smile.gif
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post #19 of 34 Old 08-09-2012, 03:04 PM
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The amp failure problem has been rectified. I have no issues with mine at all. Plus,Chad the owner will take care of you,he does actually care about his customers. I'd do the 2 legends for a grand.. Actually,if you buy one for $499,you get the 2nd one for $399. Your actually saving $100 for dinner with your wife/gf.. smile.gif
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post #20 of 34 Old 08-10-2012, 08:09 AM
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You can do it easily with DIY, and to 13 hz if you wish! The problem is they will be very big and ugly. 2 eD 190v2's, one behringer ep-4000, and one sonotube cut into 2 pieces and one sheet of MDF for endcaps. This comes in at $925 and in my room produced 120 dBs at the LP. Mine were tuned to 13.4 hz.

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These

IMG_3571.jpg

This whole system cost me $1500 for the 4. Two Cinema F-20's would cost $800-900 but only goes to 20hz.

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post #22 of 34 Old 08-10-2012, 08:37 AM
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20hz at -6dB meets reference as defined by THX standards...

but the f20's sounded quite muddy in my experience at the huskeromaha meet in 2011

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post #23 of 34 Old 08-10-2012, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

You can do it easily with DIY, and to 13 hz if you wish! The problem is they will be very big and ugly. 2 eD 190v2's, one behringer ep-4000, and one sonotube cut into 2 pieces and one sheet of MDF for endcaps. This comes in at $925 and in my room produced 120 dBs at the LP. Mine were tuned to 13.4 hz.


produced 120dB at what frequency? fairly flat across the spectrum? Did you happen to capture a FR graph at that time. For the price that seems pretty phenomenal, and I know you like your ED subs now -- sounds like a reasonable idea for someone who doesn't mind the looks. They are currently $150 a driver at ED in a sale right --- assuming ED is still legitimately selling things?

$150x2 = $350 shipped drivers
$350 = Behringer amp
$100 = sonotube
$40 = MDF sheet
$100 = mic2200 or some sort of HPF or EQ.

Yes that'd squeeze in at under $1000.

Sadly the ED thread shows a lot of discontent with orders right now. If you could do a local pickup this would probably work.

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post #24 of 34 Old 08-10-2012, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

produced 120dB at what frequency? fairly flat across the spectrum? Did you happen to capture a FR graph at that time. For the price that seems pretty phenomenal, and I know you like your ED subs now -- sounds like a reasonable idea for someone who doesn't mind the looks. They are currently $150 a driver at ED in a sale right --- assuming ED is still legitimately selling things?
$150x2 = $350 shipped drivers
$350 = Behringer amp
$100 = sonotube
$40 = MDF sheet
$100 = mic2200 or some sort of HPF or EQ.
Yes that'd squeeze in at under $1000.
Sadly the ED thread shows a lot of discontent with orders right now. If you could do a local pickup this would probably work.

I know, if eD is still alive it would be great. One can always use another comparable driver. I would say the F-20 had a little more output above 20hz but I liked the eD's better which had better extension. Sadly, I only started measuring my equipment when I took those 4 subs and made 8 sealed subs(4 extra drivers and 2 extra amps). Here was the response with two separate setup locations(same subs and gear).

The first is all four corners

S5001503.jpg

S5001506.jpg

S5001507.jpg

The response

firsttest-1.jpg

third.jpg

Then I placed them all up front like this

IMG_0872.jpg

The response with subs only and 80hz crossover

newsub.jpg

When I say reference I set everything to 75 dBs, subs 10 dBs hot, both vented and sealed, and watched WOTW famous scenes at reference and hit the meter at 126 dBs plus. My meter just maxed out at my LP which is 13-14 feet away.

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amps-5 Adcom 555 in 850 watt monoblock mode
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I know, if eD is still alive it would be great. One can always use another comparable driver. I would say the F-20 had a little more output above 20hz but I liked the eD's better which had better extension. Sadly, I only started measuring my equipment when I took those 4 subs and made 8 sealed subs(4 extra drivers and 2 extra amps). Here was the response with two separate setup locations(same subs and gear).
The first is all four corners
S5001503.jpg
S5001506.jpg
S5001507.jpg
The response
firsttest-1.jpg
third.jpg
Then I placed them all up front like this
IMG_0872.jpg
The response with subs only and 80hz crossover
newsub.jpg
When I say reference I set everything to 75 dBs, subs 10 dBs hot, both vented and sealed, and watched WOTW famous scenes at reference and hit the meter at 126 dBs plus. My meter just maxed out at my LP which is 13-14 feet away.

If I take away 2 subs(vented) it would hit 120 dBs in room at LP which is over reference.

AVR-Yamaha A830
amps-5 Adcom 555 in 850 watt monoblock mode
sub amp-Sanway FP14K
LCR-Dual stacked BFM DR-250's
Surrounds- Dual stacked BFM W10's
subs-12 SI 18's ported 6hz.
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MKTheater, your room has to factor in the equation though. You have a sealed, treated room which makes a big difference.
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post #27 of 34 Old 08-10-2012, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

As I mentioned earlier. No two subs retail subs or ID subs for $1000 are going to get you to reference flat level bass in a typical home theater room. You can't even do it with DIY I don't believe. If there's a way - lets talk.

Although I doubt the OP would be interested in it, would an IB setup easily acheive the goal of reference level bass at $1k ?
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post #28 of 34 Old 08-10-2012, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

MKTheater, your room has to factor in the equation though. You have a sealed, treated room which makes a big difference.

I lose 12 dBs from the speakers to the seats! These two subs would play roughly 112 dBs at 20hz outside at 2 meters. Depending on placement one can get up to 12 dBs of boundary gain and maybe lose 3-12 dBs from distance. Dual ported 18's with 600 watts will get you there! My room is on concrete, so spl's are hard but pressure is easy. I can open my doors(7x6 area) and I lose nothing, that opens to another 2100 cubic feet.

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post #29 of 34 Old 08-10-2012, 10:12 AM
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Before we get too fired up about all this, we should try and find out more about the OP's room. How big is it, and is it open to any other areas of the house?
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post #30 of 34 Old 08-10-2012, 10:27 AM
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It does not matter, he wants the most output(reference from two subs for under $1000! The choices are very limited and basically DIY.

AVR-Yamaha A830
amps-5 Adcom 555 in 850 watt monoblock mode
sub amp-Sanway FP14K
LCR-Dual stacked BFM DR-250's
Surrounds- Dual stacked BFM W10's
subs-12 SI 18's ported 6hz.
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