Your recommendation for my 4400 cu ft dedicated theater would be? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 72 Old 08-11-2012, 11:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Now that I have decided on speakers, I need to figure out the subs for my dedicated theater currently under construction.. The plan is for 11.2 system, and I have decided to go with Sonance Cinema series speakers. I will have five LCR2’s for the left, right, center, and wides; and four SUR1’s for the surrounds and backs. The height speakers will be Speakercraft TIME 3’s.

So, onto the bass factor. My original plan was to use the existing sub that I have left from my old living room theater (BIC H-100) and just buy another one to supplement it, but that was when I was on a bit tighter budget. I also don’t think that dual H-100’s will do my new space justice. The new theater is much bigger than my old living room. The subject room is basically a 20’x20’ main area with a double tray ceiling stepping from 8’ to 9’ to 10’, then there is an additional open space behind it that is 10’ x 10’ with an 8’ ceiling. I plan on turning this back space into a bar area. Total volume of everything is 4400 cubic feet if you count the back area. Here are a couple renderings I have done to give you a better idea of the layout:

theaterlayout.jpg

Concept1.jpg

Concept2.jpg

Concept3.jpg

Concept4.jpg

The areas on either side of the bar will be closets/ storage areas. I will make the right side into my equipment closet.

I plan on placing the subs in the front outside the speaker columns. I am assuming this would be the best location, but open to other suggestions. I will be watching movies and sports events 90% of the time (most of that at reference level), and a little gaming and music sometimes, but not a whole lot. As far as aesthetics go, I would absolutely LOVE to see something with carbon fiber. The theater will have carbon fiber accents, and all the speakers have carbon fiber cones, so if the subs would match, that would be phenomenal. However, I think for the subs, this is not an absolute requirement. As far as time frame goes, I don’t need them tomorrow (I’m still working on the theater), but my goal is to have everything done in a month.

So, having done a little research myself, I was thinking something along the lines of dual Epik Empires. I know they are not as pleasing on the eye as I would like, but I think their performance would more than make up for it. I also would like to stay in this budget range. It seems hard pressed to beat this setup for the money, but that’s why I’m here asking you guys your opinion first.
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post #2 of 72 Old 08-11-2012, 11:44 AM
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Well... the dual Epics may suit you quite well for what you are asking! Its had to say really thou. Thou's H-100's will not do you any justice IMHO. Of course they may work BUT I dont think they will achieve the performace you are looking for!! As far as carbon fiber, good luck! I would suggest looking into just a rap as that will work.
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post #3 of 72 Old 08-11-2012, 11:49 AM
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Let us know how you like the Sonance speakers smile.gif

For the money, I think the dual Epik Empires are very tough to beat for that size room.

Another option to consider would be a pair of these with the Dayton amp:
https://www.chasehometheater.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=586&category_id=29&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=143&redirected=1&Itemid=143

One other option would be to get a single more expensive sub now, and add a second one later. But I think it is hard to beat two Epik Empires for about $1650 or so shipped.

One thing to be aware of is that if you are sitting in the center of the room you are sitting in a bass null. So try to position your main seating either forward or further back if possible so you are not sitting dead center. If you are sitting in the center, you would want to try and place the sub closer to you if possible

What receiver are you using? I would recommend a receiver that has Audyssey MultEQ XT32 which will EQ multiple subs.

Agreed with the above, you might be able to find a carbon fiber wrap... If you up the budget you could contact Funkywaves, they might do something custom for you smile.gif
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post #4 of 72 Old 08-11-2012, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

Let us know how you like the Sonance speakers smile.gif
For the money, I think the dual Epik Empires are very tough to beat for that size room.
Another option to consider would be a pair of these with the Dayton amp:
https://www.chasehometheater.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=586&category_id=29&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=143&redirected=1&Itemid=143
One other option would be to get a single more expensive sub now, and add a second one later. But I think it is hard to beat two Epik Empires for about $1650 or so shipped.
One thing to be aware of is that if you are sitting in the center of the room you are sitting in a bass null. So try to position your main seating either forward or further back if possible so you are not sitting dead center. If you are sitting in the center, you would want to try and place the sub closer to you if possible
What recover are you using? I would recommend a receiver that has Audyssey MultEQ XT32 which will EQ multiple subs.
Agreed with the above, you might be able to find a carbon fiber wrap... If you up the budget you could contact Funkywaves, they might do something custom for you smile.gif

I'll definitely post my impressions of the Sonance speakers when I get them up and running.

With those CraigSUB SS-18.1 you posted, would I be able to use just one of the Dayton SA1000 amps and still use both outputs of my receiver? Which, BTW I just got the receiver in last week. Its a Denon 4311, so yep, its got XT32. Thats why Im asking about the Dayton amps ability to have 2 independent inputs and outputs so I can let the receiver do the configuration for both subs.

Oh, and the main listening position is in the center of the main part of the room, BUT if you consider the whole length from the front to the back of the bar area, its at 33% of the way, which is where bass should be best right? I was a bit confused how to consider that back part, but I did take that into account (although perhaps my assumptions are incorrect).

As far as a possible carbon wrap is concerned, I can definitely do that myself. I have wrapped several parts before, so thats not a problem if it comes down to that. I've had that idea in the back of my head anyways wink.gif
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post #5 of 72 Old 08-11-2012, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chevychad View Post

I'll definitely post my impressions of the Sonance speakers when I get them up and running.
With those CraigSUB SS-18.1 you posted, would I be able to use just one of the Dayton SA1000 amps and still use both outputs of my receiver? Which, BTW I just got the receiver in last week. Its a Denon 4311, so yep, its got XT32. Thats why Im asking about the Dayton amps ability to have 2 independent inputs and outputs so I can let the receiver do the configuration for both subs.
Oh, and the main listening position is in the center of the main part of the room, BUT if you consider the whole length from the front to the back of the bar area, its at 33% of the way, which is where bass should be best right? I was a bit confused how to consider that back part, but I did take that into account (although perhaps my assumptions are incorrect).
As far as a possible carbon wrap is concerned, I can definitely do that myself. I have wrapped several parts before, so thats not a problem if it comes down to that. I've had that idea in the back of my head anyways wink.gif

Nice receiver, you should be good to go smile.gif

As for the Chase subs with the Dayton amp (I don't own one) but I believe you go RCA cable from receiver to Dayton amp, and then you use standard speaker wire from the Dayton into each sub. And yes, you can run two subs off one amp.

I almost pulled the trigger on the Epik Empire sub myself but there did seem to be a number of reports of amp issues. That said, the company seems to respond and resolve the issues as they pop up, but having come from an eD sub with poor customer service I went with an HSU VTF-15H. I think you would want duals and that (dual VTF 15H's) would be about $400 more shipped than dual Empires. But aside from SVS, Hsu has amazing customer service.

Do you have a thread in the dedicated or general home theater forums? Your room looks awesome and would love to see the build and how it turns out.

As for the center of the room, you should be okay, but once you get everything setup you can take measurement and so the sub crawl test to assure you have solid placement.
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post #6 of 72 Old 08-11-2012, 12:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the input. I actually also got a PM recommending FV15HP, so Ill look at those as well.

$400 more wont break the bank, but I dont have as big of a money tree as some on here lol..

I dont have a build thread yet in the dedicated theater forum. Ive been meaning to make one, but just havent yet. Maybe Ill get to that this weekend. smile.gif
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post #7 of 72 Old 08-11-2012, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chevychad View Post

Thanks for the input. I actually also got a PM recommending FV15HP, so Ill look at those as well.
$400 more wont break the bank, but I dont have as big of a money tree as some on here lol..
I dont have a build thread yet in the dedicated theater forum. Ive been meaning to make one, but just havent yet. Maybe Ill get to that this weekend. smile.gif

The Rythmik FV15HP would be a solid choice, but duals would run you about $2800 shipped.

I like my Hsu, and it is a nice looking sub and a little intimidating to look at:
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-15h.html#

I bought one now and will be adding a second in the next six months (my space including the open spaces that are open to it is about 4000 cubic square feet. One Hsu sub actually plays well, but I think a second one really give me that extra punch smile.gif. My wife would beg to differ..
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post #8 of 72 Old 08-11-2012, 01:04 PM
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dual submersives. But if that is out of the budget dual vtf 15h will do nicely.

butter and jelly please.
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post #9 of 72 Old 08-11-2012, 01:16 PM
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your original plan of dual epik empires is quite sound for your needs. Considering you are coming from BIC sub you'll think you've died and gone to heaven.

The dual epik empires won't necessarily do reference at 20hz, but they won't ever sound bad either because they are amp limited and from what I've heard in listening to them --- incapable of making a bad noise. So as you turn it up - at some point they'll just stop getting louder.

We demoed an epik empire in the 2011 meet linked in my sig. For $800 it's a great choice.

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post #10 of 72 Old 08-11-2012, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chevychad View Post

I'll definitely post my impressions of the Sonance speakers when I get them up and running.
With those CraigSUB SS-18.1 you posted, would I be able to use just one of the Dayton SA1000 amps and still use both outputs of my receiver? Which, BTW I just got the receiver in last week. Its a Denon 4311, so yep, its got XT32. Thats why Im asking about the Dayton amps ability to have 2 independent inputs and outputs so I can let the receiver do the configuration for both subs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

Nice receiver, you should be good to go smile.gif
As for the Chase subs with the Dayton amp (I don't own one) but I believe you go RCA cable from receiver to Dayton amp, and then you use standard speaker wire from the Dayton into each sub. And yes, you can run two subs off one amp.
I

Although you can use the Dayton amp to drive two subs, it is a mono amp so you cannot use it for two separate input signals. Although it has both left and right RCA inputs, they are internally summed and the same output is sent to both speaker outputs. With the 4311, you would not be able to use the two sub outs with separate delay, level and EQ.

-Mike
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post #11 of 72 Old 08-11-2012, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ironhead1230 View Post

Although you can use the Dayton amp to drive two subs, it is a mono amp so you cannot use it for two separate input signals. Although it has both left and right RCA inputs, they are internally summed and the same output is sent to both speaker outputs. With the 4311, you would not be able to use the two sub outs with separate delay, level and EQ.
-Mike

Thanks Mike. That info should help the OP.
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post #12 of 72 Old 08-11-2012, 03:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the advise everyone. Seems like some really good suggestions here. I really appreciate all the input.

The Rythmik FV15HP is more than I want to spend right now. The Chase subs look nice, but I'd need 2 amps for them, so that bumps up the price, and I'm not really that impressed with the looks of the subs.

But man, I'm really diggin the looks of the HSU VTF-15H the more I look at it. I think its between that and the Epik Empire so far. If the VTF-15H is a better sub than the Epik, I may have to get them cool.gif
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post #13 of 72 Old 08-11-2012, 04:04 PM
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post #14 of 72 Old 08-11-2012, 08:22 PM
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The HSu VTF-15H is an excellent choice I agree!! I believe it will give you better extention but dual Empires will give a more room filling..... just depnds on your needs
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post #15 of 72 Old 08-11-2012, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chevychad View Post

Thanks for all the advise everyone. Seems like some really good suggestions here. I really appreciate all the input.
The Rythmik FV15HP is more than I want to spend right now. The Chase subs look nice, but I'd need 2 amps for them, so that bumps up the price, and I'm not really that impressed with the looks of the subs.
But man, I'm really diggin the looks of the HSU VTF-15H the more I look at it. I think its between that and the Epik Empire so far. If the VTF-15H is a better sub than the Epik, I may have to get them cool.gif

If you are talking two Empires vs one VTF-15, I would say get the dual Empire. If you are talking dual Hsu subs, I would say get the Hsu subs. The nice thing about the Hsu subs is the ability to tweak and tune them to your liking. You can leave both ports open, leave one port open, and seal both ports. The sub also has additional tuning options. I really like the flexibility. For such a large room, a ported sub might be preferred, but again dual Empires vs a single VTF-15, I would go dual Empire.
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post #16 of 72 Old 08-12-2012, 06:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Im thinking duals either way..
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post #17 of 72 Old 08-12-2012, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by chevychad View Post

TThe Chase subs look nice, but I'd need 2 amps for them, so that bumps up the price, and I'm not really that impressed with the looks of the subs.

Nope. Just need one. Dual SS 18.1s run off the one Dayton Amp that CHT sells.

And while I would agree that other subs have more exciting finishes, I am quite satisfied with the look of the 2011 CHT SS 18.1s I have in comparison to the Outlaw EX, depicted here (click on the image):


Your questions are answered: Speaker FAQ
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Nope. Just need one. Dual SS 18.1s run off the one Dayton Amp that CHT sells.
And while I would agree that other subs have more exciting finishes, I am quite satisfied with the look of the 2011 CHT SS 18.1s I have in comparison to the Outlaw EX, depicted here (click on the image):

For what I am trying to do, I would need 2. See post#10..
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post #19 of 72 Old 08-12-2012, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chevychad View Post

For what I am trying to do, I would need 2. See post#10..

Oppss. Sorry about that. I agree with Archaea then. Dual Epik Empires make a lot of sense then smile.gif

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post #20 of 72 Old 08-12-2012, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chevychad View Post

Im thinking duals either way..

HSU might knock some money off if you buy duals. Can't hurt to ask smile.gif
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post #21 of 72 Old 08-12-2012, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

HSU might knock some money off if you buy duals. Can't hurt to ask smile.gif

They will, but not a whole lot. Dual VTF15h subs are still basically a $2k system.
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post #22 of 72 Old 08-12-2012, 07:57 PM
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They will, but not a whole lot. Dual VTF15h subs are still basically a $2k system.
Nice. A lot of sub for $2K..
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post #23 of 72 Old 08-13-2012, 04:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks! What an awesome Thread, and very relevant! Surprised I had not come across that in my search yet. It seems all those subs are great and between the 2 I am considering, it doesnt seem like I can go wrong either way.. That being said, I think Im leaning towards the dual HSU setup at this point. Ill probably be making my final decision and ordering this week.

Thanks again everyone for the very good advise and guidance biggrin.gif
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post #24 of 72 Old 08-13-2012, 09:34 PM
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I highly recommend DUal VTF 15h's. I currently own them and bought them at a discounted price (when purchasing 2 at once).


In a nutshell, they are very customization and are just incredibly powerful.

Most people want Bass that is not just tight and sounds good, but also want to "feel" it. Tactical feel. That thread that was linked to you says that the VTF 15h's seem to have the most tactical feel out of all the subs tested, eventhough it wasn't the largest. I also read people own reviews in here that say the same thing. I absolutely agree with it too. The HSUs have INCREDIBLE tactical feel.


HIGHLY recommended.

And yes, they look absolutely magnificent in real life and menacing.


Ray

Projector: AE7000
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post #25 of 72 Old 08-14-2012, 04:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Im glad you posted Ray. I was about to take the plunge on dual Empires. I was feeling pretty good about the HSU VTF15H after reading the shootout thread that Archaea linked and I quoted. But then I read the 2012 KC blind sub shootout in his sig, and started looking into possibly getting a single submersive, so I read up on them also. But then upon searching through all the previous threads I could find, I stumbled across a very informative thread by michman comparing to a single submersive to dual empires. That swayed me back to my original decision about the dual Epiks.

What is interesting is that I can find all sorts of threads comparing a single Epik to a single HSU, but I can't find a thread where someone has done a comparison between dual VTF15H and dual Empires. The only thing that comes close is taking from Archaea's 2012 thread is that a single submersive > dual VTF15H's. Then making the jump from that with michman's thread where dual Empires > single submersive. So with the single submersive as the common control factor here, I would deduce that dual Epik Empire > Single Submersive > Dual HSU VTF15H.

But like I said, finding a dual empire vs dual VTF15H thread has proved elusive to me. I'd love to hear some input from someone who has heard both and compared them. I'm not sure that this would yield the same result as single vs single. I believe the dual subs adds a dynamic to the situation that may not be represented with a single vs single setting..

And the other thing, as has already been mentioned here, is that I'm coming from a single BIC H-100, so I'm sure either of the 2 setups will blow me away. But I want to FEEL the bass from my seating area. If there is an earthquake in a movie I'm watching, I want everyone thats watching the movie to think "Holy $#!+, I'm really IN an earthquake" LOL..

Thanks again for all the replies everyone. I'm truly on the fence here between these 2 setups and going out of my mind trying to figure out which setup will be best for movies.
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post #26 of 72 Old 08-14-2012, 05:55 AM
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post #27 of 72 Old 08-14-2012, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chevychad View Post

And the other thing, as has already been mentioned here, is that I'm coming from a single BIC H-100, so I'm sure either of the 2 setups will blow me away. But I want to FEEL the bass from my seating area. If there is an earthquake in a movie I'm watching, I want everyone thats watching the movie to think "Holy $#!+, I'm really IN an earthquake" LOL..

Thanks again for all the replies everyone. I'm truly on the fence here between these 2 setups and going out of my mind trying to figure out which setup will be best for movies.

buttkickers are likely the "best" way to get that effect... especially without spending a ton of cash... to "really feel" the earthquake in a 4400cu ft room just by pushing air is going to require a lot of air to be pushed... although if you have a sprung floor, that will help... however, if you are in a basement on a cement floor, you might want to take a serious look at the kickers...

ymmv...

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my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #28 of 72 Old 08-14-2012, 06:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks ack_bk, that helps, but have you seen any duals vs duals comparisons? If so, please post up biggrin.gif

ccotenj- my room is on the second story of my house above the garage. I hope this helps.. I have thought of buttkickers but havent really done a lot of research on them yet. Id like to see how just the subs do, then go from there.. For my untuned ears/ experience, the subs may be enough. I just want to make sure I get the best movie sub of the 2 right now..
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post #29 of 72 Old 08-14-2012, 07:04 AM
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Nope no duals, but duals are just going to effectively add more output and smooth out repsonse. Some tough choices here especially when you are within reach of a Submerssive or Captivator..

As for buttkickers, I have mixed feelings about them. For action movies they are pretty fun, but for other types of movies, I just was not feeling them.

Honestly, see how the new sub(s) feel first. You are going to hear and feel bass you never have with the Bic 100.
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post #30 of 72 Old 08-14-2012, 07:11 AM
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@chevy... 2nd floors are always good for shaking around... mine is, anyway... smile.gif

@ack... i agree on the bk's... i had them at one time, and no longer do... just figured i'd throw it out there since it seems like the op is looking for strong tactile sensations... smile.gif

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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