The Subwoofer Recommendation by Pricepoint Thread. - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 08-27-2012, 09:31 AM
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I think this is an interesting exercise but that without direct ownership of each product it is just a popularity contest. Even ownership does not guarantee much except a relative subjective opinion so I hope that anyone researching a subwoofer purchase will do as much research as time allows. That should include auditioning products when/where possible. Most of the 20+ subs I have owned are $1500+ each and the under $1K subs I have owned I would generally not recommend based upon current price performance criteria so I have little or no input on most of the price categories.

That said ...

Pricepoint
$100 - I have no worthwhile input
$200 - I have no worthwhile input
$300 - I have no worthwhile input
$400 - I have no worthwhile input
$500 - I have no worthwhile input
$600 - I have no worthwhile input
$700 - I have no worthwhile input
$800 - I have no worthwhile input
$1,000 - Danley DTS-10 (Kit)
$1,333 - I have no worthwhile input
$1,666 - JTR Captivator Passive w external amp
$2,000 - I have no worthwhile input
$2,500 - Seaton Submersive HP
$3,000 - JTR Orbit Shifter

Price no object? - Multiples of the last two ...

Opinions are not facts.
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Old 08-27-2012, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I think this is an interesting exercise but that without direct ownership of each product it is just a popularity contest.

Yah, srsly. I've been SO misled by popular votes here in the last couple of years that I really hope everybody who's searching for subs can put things into context and read between lines. It's doubtful, though.

Once again, I am sorry to take a sledgehammer to so small and fragile a nut. -- Richard Dawkins, The Greatest Show On Earth
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Old 08-27-2012, 11:45 AM
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Interesting contributions ....

In addition to the wonderfully well conceived, built, measured and reviewed, .. Seaton Submersive, I always felt HSU's sealed 15" was a great choice/value as well. And in duals, and even quads, they become inherently quite versatile in room optimization. Very high driver quality and implementing multiples is just a can't go wrong proposition. Now I have always thought that their power amps could offer up a bit more, but you can't argue with their results.

Rana, I've owned Velodyne products for 20 years. Even though they're no longer a part of my HT, they certainly were quite the innovative leader, paving the way for those to come. Their current lineup is strong performers, for sure. However, I'm not inclined to characterize them as a high value choice. Aesthetically pleasing, broad international dealer support base, but a good value, ... not so much. At their price-points, they can be easily be outperformed as far as measurements go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

In the coming months I'd like to experiment a bit with some DIY to see what type of value I can pull together.

Some solid picks in your sub list.

With regard to a DIY effort, how's this?;
Infinite Baffle sub @$1300, (4) 18" Fi, IB3-18s, merely powered by a couple hundred watts per driver (Berry EP4K), achieving 124dB (127dB peak)@1m@20hz, below clipping, low wattage-low compression, thus highly dynamic. Just but one example of DIY value you mentioned.



Thanks

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Old 08-27-2012, 09:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

But that's the very advantage of being an ID sub, to eliminate extra middlemen like distributors. Being in the shipping business, particularly international, I can assure you there is no such thing as free shipping (or no duties/taxes)....it's marketing speak for we'll absorb that cost to project a particular price point. Once you go traditional distribution costs will generally need to rise (or you cut back on components, which SVS under their fairly new ownership seems to have done with their bookshelves, at least from what I can tell from my MBS02s compared to the previous model). My Epik Empire shipping was 140 or so and I'm in the US....total cost of the Empire still beats heck out of B&M offerings around here (and IMHO any other ID offering at that price point). Epik now uses another provider (Fedex ground) as their previous one abandoned the US domestic market (Schenker) but crossing the border is a different freight world...

I'm pretty much in agreement with you on all points. Mine was mainly that shipping costs may heavily distort these price point lists depending on where you are.

Also keep in mind that SVS's distributor in Canada is itself internet-direct. I think they can still offer reasonable prices by doing bulk import and shipping from SVS to Sonicboom while keeping sales ID. So from SVS's point of view, they just gained a distributor instead of opening a Canadian division, which would not be worth it I guess. If you want to do bulk shipping to save on cost, you have to have someone at the other end of the trip to stock the subs wink.gif So SVS effectively grabbed the (sub-$2k) ID sub market in Canada by doing that. I doubt this makes much difference to their sales numbers but still, it was the best way to expand their market into Canada. Shipping individual subs internationally is not very efficient. Yes they got a middleman (in other countries) but this actually lowered the cost for the buyer. Case in point: last fall I paid $650 for the SB12, plus $40 shipping, plus local taxes, for the glossy black finish. Almost the same total price that is advertised on svsound.com...

That internet direct nature of the Canadian distributor (authorized internet retailer?) plus a discount for volume and a desire to expand markets would explain how you can get virtually the US price but only SVS and Sonicboom know the formula...

With NAFTA there should be no duty/tax on import into Canada if SVS is indeed made in the USA to the extent that their product(s) qualify for the NAFTA origin criteria (considering foreign components, which have a bearing on the origin percentage determinations).

Generally I agree the prices should be made equal for comparison sakes, but that can be hard to do...especially for those that include it in their price as you may not be able to get that same economy of scale in shipping costs to compare to another. Taxes should be excluded but I can buy one in some cases without any sales tax wheres those in some states or VAT areas can't do that (outside the US....for now wink.gif ).
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Old 08-27-2012, 09:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaviorMachine View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I think this is an interesting exercise but that without direct ownership of each product it is just a popularity contest.

Yah, srsly. I've been SO misled by popular votes here in the last couple of years that I really hope everybody who's searching for subs can put things into context and read between lines. It's doubtful, though.

care to elaborate in brief?

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Old 08-27-2012, 09:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I think this is an interesting exercise but that without direct ownership of each product it is just a popularity contest. Even ownership does not guarantee much except a relative subjective opinion so I hope that anyone researching a subwoofer purchase will do as much research as time allows. That should include auditioning products when/where possible. Most of the 20+ subs I have owned are $1500+ each and the under $1K subs I have owned I would generally not recommend so I have little or no input on most of the price categories.

That said ...

Pricepoint
$100 - I have no worthwhile input
$200 - I have no worthwhile input
$300 - I have no worthwhile input
$400 - HSU VTF-1 (owned and it was nice but there are probably better performers)
$500 - I have no worthwhile input
$600 - I have no worthwhile input
$700 - I have no worthwhile input
$800 - I have no worthwhile input
$1,000 - Danley DTS-10 (Kit)
$1,333 - JTR Captivator Passive
$1,666 - I have no worthwhile input
$2,000 - JTR Cap1000
$2,500 - Seaton Submersive HP
$3,000 - JTR Orbit Shifter

Price no object? - Multiples of the last two ...

Added to first post.

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Old 08-28-2012, 06:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Some solid picks in your sub list.
With regard to a DIY effort, how's this?;
Infinite Baffle sub @$1300, (4) 18" Fi, IB3-18s, merely powered by a couple hundred watts per driver (Berry EP4K), achieving 124dB (127dB peak)@1m@20hz, below clipping, low wattage-low compression, thus highly dynamic. Just but one example of DIY value you mentioned.
Thanks

Interesting, thanks for the ideas. I do already have an EP4000 laying around too. biggrin.gif I will shoot you a PM if you don't mind. tongue.gif
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Old 08-28-2012, 06:29 AM
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IB is the best bang for buck for sure, however, they have their drawbacks. The two big ones are permanent location and it will shake both sides of the room. If I could have used an attic or crawl space I would have built one. As is, it would have destroyed my laundry room(where the back wave would be) and my wife is just enough tolerable with cracking the bathroom marble! I needed to contain the bass within one room the best I could so I went multiple sealed.

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Old 08-29-2012, 02:08 PM
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I have had dual MFW-15s before the amps went on them. Really enjoyed the thump I got from these ported subs, particularly in movies. Currently have dual Epik Empires. Find them terrific for music but don't have the same thump for movies. However, they are able to go very low and rattle anything not nailed down. I have my main speakers and subs on Auralex platforms to absorb vibration and provide a purer sound experience. I have been looking at JL Audio's f212 but have not heard them. Does anyone have any experience with JL's subs, the f212 in particular? If you know, how would they differ from the Empires?
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Old 08-29-2012, 04:14 PM
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Has anyone ever heard a Lava sub? I'm thinking of getting dual LSP10 or an HSU VTF1 single.
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Old 08-30-2012, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jebbj View Post

Velodyne across the board.smile.gif

Really?

Having owned 3 DD18's and several other lesser Velo subs, I was and still am a qualified fan of the company and products. The Hall brothers are great engineers and subwoofer pioneers but there simply are better options available at all price points in today's market.

Opinions are not facts.
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Old 08-30-2012, 02:28 PM
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^^^^^

You can get them much lower than the price listed on their site by cutting a deal with one of their legacy, former, but still authorized dealers. Another thing to factor in is that there is a much greater and deeper market for used Velodynes than other brands. I sold an 8 year old DD-15 for $1250 that I paid $2000 for new. I was completely transparent about the age and nicks too.
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Old 08-30-2012, 03:11 PM
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^^^ Good point about the resale value and if you can get a good to great deal on a DD+ series then they would be an interesting option. I always felt the DD18 was a very special subwoofer and I have never heard a sub that sounds better for music. The engineering and fit/finish are second to none.

Opinions are not facts.
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Old 09-02-2012, 03:18 PM
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I'm addicted to the remote on my Velodyne SPL1200.

Any others with remotes?

Circular reference [sir-ku-ler ref-rents]: see reference, circular
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Old 09-02-2012, 04:33 PM
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Pricepoint:

Blah
Blah
Blah
Blah
Blah
Blah
Blah
Blah
$3,000- Legacy Audio Point One biggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gif
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Old 09-02-2012, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by unlearn View Post

Has anyone ever heard a Lava sub? I'm thinking of getting dual LSP10 or an HSU VTF1 single.

The Lava's are subs that subjectively sound good but objectively measure poorly as far as deep bass extension is concerned. I purchased two for my brother as a birthday gift a few years ago and he is very happy with them. I also find that they sound good with music and movies in his living room. That said there are more (better) budget subs available today for the money. I would consider dual Klipsch RW-12D subs for example.
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Old 09-02-2012, 05:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mungee View Post

Pricepoint:

Blah
Blah
Blah
Blah
Blah
Blah
Blah
Blah
$3,000- Legacy Audio Point One biggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

I wasn't familiar with this one so I looked it up!

15" - 750 watts - $3k -- frequency response provide no +/- allowances. 18hz - 150hz is all it says with a max spl (at what frequency?) of 117dB at 1meter.
http://www.legacyaudio.com/products/view/point-one-hd/

The linked 2003 review from an AV mag said the Point One can easily go above 100dB at 20hz. So can 2/3's of the sub on this list and none of them cost $3k. The Legacy manual reads nice and is particularly informative. It seems as if at the time of this subs release it might have been a solid offering, but in today's competitive market, it may not be the best value proposition.

Seems like a botique sub where cosmetics or brand is put above performance. Do you own it? I've not heard it, but the lack of standard specs on this --- at the pricepoint curbs my enthusiasm a bit.

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Old 09-02-2012, 06:01 PM
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Do I own a Legacy Audio Point One? Yep.

There is an entire thread dedicated to Legacy Audio speakers on the speakers sub-forum.

Does it deliver, oh yes. My house needs an upgrade, its totally not built for this sub.
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Old 09-03-2012, 09:14 AM
 
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$200 – Pioneer SW-8MK2 - Newly redesigned for the 2012 line by Andrew Jones of KEF/Infinity fame
$300 – TWO Pioneer SW-8MK2

I cannot find any professional reviews of this amp. Do you know of any?
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Old 09-03-2012, 09:29 AM
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I cannot find any professional reviews of this amp. Do you know of any?

The amp in the subwoofer? I don't think Pioneer sells them outside of their subwoofer line. Its probably an OEM just for the sub itself.
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Old 09-03-2012, 05:20 PM
 
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The subwoofer as a whole. For example, if I want reviews of the HSU VTF-1 I can just type HSU VTF-1 review into bing and get several professional reviews. If I type Pioneer SW-8MK2 into bing I get no professional reviews.
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Old 09-03-2012, 06:29 PM
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$ 1333: Recommend Velodyne

I'll take the lack of response to "any other subs with remotes" (other than Velodyne) as a "no" pending further notice... smile.gif

Meanwhile, I find the remote and the 4 presets on my Velodyne SPL-1200R (discontinued) to be indispensable.

I normally have it set to "Jazz Club" which seems to be hi-fi code for "fairly flat, minimal reverb" across many brands of equipment smile.gif

When I go to watch a movie, I hit the preset for that, and the walls are shaking as needed. When the family complains about their teeth jangling, I can use the remote to damp it temporarily either with presets of the down-volume which has a fine-grained scale of 1-100.

Sadly, I see that Velodyne no longer has the rounded corners (ok they're slightly rounded but not like the SPL-1200R) on any new models (except the Mini-vee), which helps it fit in to my living room. It's so nice that my kid likes to sit on it if not chased off - this has the scientific effect of rebooting every box in the system, thanks to the magic of intertwined power cords.

But seriously, I would not be happy having to go several levels deep into my receiver setup to turn up or down the sub, and a couple of presets via the receiver would be a pain and not offer the same control.

I paid about $1350 for it 5 years ago or so as I recall. For another room I'm going to try the Optimum 12" at $1450.

Circular reference [sir-ku-ler ref-rents]: see reference, circular
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Old 09-03-2012, 06:48 PM
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I just hit one button on my remote and hit the down arrow 3 times and subwoofer volume is right there -15 to +15, it really depends on your receiver though. IMO Velos are overprice and I've never been impressed with there performance based on the asking prices. For $1300 I'll pick up the SVS PB12 plus or HSU VTF15H and do with out the remote, over any comparably priced Velos. But if your happy with them more power to ya.
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Old 09-03-2012, 07:28 PM - Thread Starter
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an SMS-1 (made by velodyne -- wink.gif ) will give dsp presets on any subwoofer in existence with remote control capability. In addition to quick presets it can help you calibrate to a flat frequency response.

I believe the Klipsch RW-12D can be controlled by IR remotes like the harmony.
I believe the RSL Speedwoofer has a remote control.

Other than that yeah - I don't think many sub systems come with remotes.

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Old 09-03-2012, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I believe the RSL Speedwoofer has a remote control.

It does indeed, and it's not much larger then a credit card.

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Old 09-04-2012, 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

I just hit one button on my remote and hit the down arrow 3 times and subwoofer volume is right there -15 to +15, it really depends on your receiver though.

Yeah, and having the receiver menu pop over the movie must be awesome smile.gif

See, I can adjust the sub without anyone knowing. I'l crank it up but as soon as I detect anyone even taking an inward breath preparing to say "Turn it down" I can lower it a bit so the paintings don't fall off the walls, and then tap it back up with one click.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

an SMS-1 (made by velodyne -- wink.gif ) will give you subwoofer dsp presets on any subwoofer in existence and help you calibrate to a flat frequency response.

But since those are 500 bucks, the Velodynes are bargains because it's included...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I believe the Klipsch RW-12D can be controlled by IR remotes like the harmony.

Interesting - I wonder why they don't have it further up the line?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I believe the RSL Speedwoofer has a remote control.

RSL Speedwoofer. Obscure. You know your subs!


PS: Hey, I'm not in any of you guys's league, but I like my Velo. The transition from the mains is completely transparent and the SPL1500R shakes the place up although I like the low rumbles when the steampunk tanks approach best (League of Extraordinary Gentlemen for example).

But then, I'm double-bassing with my Energy Take's on the wall, in a long skinny room with an elevator shaft in the wall behind the speakers, so its unique all over...

Circular reference [sir-ku-ler ref-rents]: see reference, circular
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Old 09-04-2012, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by cyberbeach View Post

Yeah, and having the receiver menu pop over the movie must be awesome smile.gif
Again depends on receiver mine has a small transparent quick access menu for bass, treble, subwoofer level, center channel level. Just at the bottom on the left. I'd rather have the menu pop over a movie then to have the Velodyne over SVS.
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Old 09-04-2012, 06:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Velodyne, generally makes good product. The few I've heard I've been impressed with.

In general, they don't necessarily represent the best $/performance value because they are typically sold at retail stores and so margins are required that aren't required from the internet direct channels.

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Old 09-06-2012, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

Again depends on receiver mine has a small transparent quick access menu for bass, treble, subwoofer level, center channel level. Just at the bottom on the left. I'd rather have the menu pop over a movie then to have the Velodyne over SVS.

Mine does too but I have it blacked out with a darkening strip.

Movies look great when you turn your flat-panel backlight way way down, but the glowing equipment lights become a problem, so I have mine covered so that they are just barely visible.

Unfortunately, my Sony tv receiver won't display a transparent menu over an HDMI source frown.gif

Circular reference [sir-ku-ler ref-rents]: see reference, circular
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Old 09-06-2012, 11:10 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

In general, they don't necessarily represent the best $/performance value because they are typically sold at retail stores and so margins are required that aren't required from the internet direct channels.

I'm at the point where I only see ID sellers. What's a retail store?

j/k as a couple months back, we bought our last T.V. from BB but everything else is ID or internet retailers. Our future purchases will be a pair of internet direct subwoofer manufactures and if we decide to, an ID Emotiva Amp.

Due to efficient delivery services and the internet, retail stores are becoming less and less germane to the home theater experience where twenty years ago, at the beginning of the home theater craze, the retail store was all the consumer had.

The internet gives the consumer true freedom of choice.
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