The Subwoofer Recommendation by Pricepoint Thread. - Page 7 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #181 of 331 Old 11-14-2012, 03:46 PM
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Speakers are a completely different can of worms. Multiple tweeters, directional frequencies, polar plots.....

1) Bringing speakers into a subwoofer sound talk is immaterial for this discussion.

2) Different listening levels.... I am sorry but you saw my pm, I don't think thats a very scientific comparison.

SCIENCE tongue.gif
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post #182 of 331 Old 11-14-2012, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Luke define "fine", vs. "great" or "fantastic"?
You are my bud, but keeping it real. You had the opportunity to buy the two SVS PB13 ultras from me for $2,220. Or a pair from counsil. At the time you had the HSU VTF-15 pair.
We all swap out stuff obsessively in this hobby.
I couldn't at the time, and don't know understand why you wouldn't have sold the HSU VTF-15H subs you had and replaced them with the SVS PB13 Ultra pair for a mere $200 more in outlay if you really thought they were significantly worthwhile after demoing them. There is my confusion... I know your room has better room gain, and you don't need the extra umpf the SVS had down low, but charts and graphs show the SVS is clearly superior to the HSU VTF-15H. So if charts and graphs tell it all -- Why not buy the SVS PB13 Ultra and sell off your HSUs? You'd have lost very little $.
Still buds right? tongue.gif

And I told you that I am subwoofer limited with my HSU above 40hz. So how would changing to pb 13 ultra's help? I would of had to sell mine, raise my screen, basically do a bunch of stuff, to gain a couple db's WHERE I AM LIMITED NOW.

Why haven't I switched out, well I plan on only doing that once. Right now depending on the results of the in box tests, 4 of the dayton 18's, flatpacks, and something like a crown 5000 watt are looking nice.tongue.gif

Still buds but I do enjoy a spirited discussion!!
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post #183 of 331 Old 11-14-2012, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I'm not a big fan of budget subs. There are a few threads that might help you in that arena. To me I think they are all pretty terrible. But I guess that's based on your expectations and needs.
My advice is to save up until you can buy at least a BIC F12 -- and that's pretty much my minimal recommendation. I've not heard the Dayton 12" - so I can't comment..
Truly I'd recommend saving up $300 and buying the Klipsch RW-12D. Better experience all around.

What about the Klipsch SW-450 at half price?
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post #184 of 331 Old 11-14-2012, 11:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Never heard it -- but I'm going to say objectively don't do it. I wouldn't pay $250 for that compared to $300 for the RW-12D because the specs look all around worse on the SW-450.
  1. worse FR quote.
  2. smaller 10" driver
  3. less amp power RMS
  4. no digital DSP panel

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post #185 of 331 Old 11-14-2012, 11:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981 
I don't run my subs hot.

sicko

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Kamp 
Really subwoofers should just be filling in the lower octaves in most music and shouldn't be sticking out. If they are its probably a setup issue or not enough woofage or you are listening to boom boom music.

What happend to you man? You pretty much introduced me to this hobby with your HSU sub running so hot it made my 'grin muscles' sore listening to The Incredible Hulk stomp around. Who are you and what'd you do with my friend Luke?






The world's gone crazy! tongue.gif

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post #186 of 331 Old 11-15-2012, 12:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

sicko
What happend to you man? You pretty much introduced me to this hobby with your HSU sub running so hot it made my 'grin muscles' sore listening to The Incredible Hulk stomp around. Who are you and what'd you do with my friend Luke?
The world's gone crazy! tongue.gif

I got measurement equipment.wink.gif

With my room treatments I can listen at a much higher overall listening level and got accustomed to more level bass. My subs can't run clean at reference so -8 is the usual volume I listen to full length movies. I do still have a bit of a house curve. I would like to go lower and louder, but who doesn't.biggrin.gif

gain matched, one up front and one in back opposite corner, 16hz tune q.3 eq1 and then minidsp shelf on top of that pulling down low end some. This is with center channel speaker.

posteqfreqresponse.jpg

myeq.png
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post #187 of 331 Old 11-15-2012, 06:36 AM
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As to how the SVS subs sound for music, I thought the Ultras sounded a lot like my old SVS subs (I had a pci 20-39 cylinder and a dual 12 sub that I don't remember the model) in that they just didn't sound "lively", they just sounded a little (no offense, all IMO) boring. For movies I was impressed but with music I didn't get into it until we combined the Yamaha pro-style sub and even then I thought the Captivator sounded better for music.

Eh... it's all opinion and I'm sure some prefer the SVS for music.

On the subject of hot bass - I've tried and tried to listen to my subs level matched and I always cave and go back to hot subs. It's just so boring!! It's not boomy either when I run them hot, it just gives more punch/feel/full sounds than when they are flat.

Luke you told me once it takes 2 weeks for the brain to get used to a change (such as listening to level bass). Maybe my problem is I can't make it any where close to 2 weeks before I go back to running the subs hot.

When we had the blind speaker GTG at one point I asked some of the guys how hot they thought the bass was and they thought it sounded matched but it was actually 10 db hot!
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post #188 of 331 Old 11-15-2012, 07:34 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

I happen to think surround sound is a stupid gimmick too tongue.gif
I currently own a 5.1 setup, but at this point, dreams of the future involve 2.1 or 2.2.

???

???

???

WTF!???

Now that's a concept I simply cannot find a way to wrap my think around.

I know we all know this, including sound, our world is a three dimensional world and our hearing senses are genetically developed to hear in 3-D.

???

Did I stumble into a briar patch and instead of asking questions should I be keeping my head down?
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post #189 of 331 Old 11-15-2012, 07:42 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

It's a personal opinion of course, and I know it's not one that everyone shares. Get your torches and pitchforks ready.

Like you I've got so many years with 2-D televisions, the visual cortex has adapted. Maybe I can convince you to go with a killer 3.2 system. ??? tongue.gif
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post #190 of 331 Old 11-15-2012, 07:50 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

Depends on the situation. Right now the only ones that are watching are me and the wife, and my wife could probably be happy with TV speakers. That means I get the sweet spot and a phantom center would do the job for $0 extra biggrin.gif

On my part, the rub, you've never struck me as a zero dollar, save-a-buck kind-a-guy.

Like your wife, my wife listens with headphones and has no dislike of the television's speakers. If she never came out from under her headphones, she'd be happy as a clam in a gentle, sandy tide zone.

Now on the other hand, there's my idea of front sound wall which is a pair of killer subs, flanking a pair of killer floor standing speakers, sandwiching a killer center channel. No saving money on this front line wall of sound. Buy big cause this is home.

-
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post #191 of 331 Old 11-15-2012, 08:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

To be sure, I'm goal oriented. However, I'm not confident that I can discern a great difference on the front stage from my sweet spot between my RF-5s playing alone or coupling them with my RC-35 center (though admittedly I haven't spent a lot of time worrying about it lately). Outside of the sweet spot, things of course change, and to my knowledge that is THE argument for a center channel.

I just recently stepped up to a b-stock, RC64-II from a Klipsch, KV-4 to match up with our Klipsch, Epic, CF-3's and in the simple, it rocks and has made a huge, now that's what I'm talking about, listenability difference.

Think steak > rib-eye > choice rib-eye > 1" choice rib-eye > 1" prime rib-eye > 2" prime rib-eye. Now we're talking rib-eye with Wagyu beef being the con of an overly fat piece of grease with some protein mixed in. biggrin.gif And if someone likes their fat with some tender protein mixed in, go for it. The point, we both understand the need to have a pair of killer, can do the job, subwoofers and when we're being conned and when we're shortchanging ourselves.

.........................rolleyes.gif

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post #192 of 331 Old 11-15-2012, 08:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Steve1981,

My avatar pic is the subwoofer frequency response in my room at my main listening position with my pair of captivators (it's flat as a pancake) and I love them for music. More pics under my theater room link in my sig.

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post #193 of 331 Old 11-15-2012, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

As to how the SVS subs sound for music, I thought the Ultras sounded a lot like my old SVS subs (I had a pci 20-39 cylinder and a dual 12 sub that I don't remember the model) in that they just didn't sound "lively", they just sounded a little (no offense, all IMO) boring. For movies I was impressed but with music I didn't get into it until we combined the Yamaha pro-style sub and even then I thought the Captivator sounded better for music.
Eh... it's all opinion and I'm sure some prefer the SVS for music.
On the subject of hot bass - I've tried and tried to listen to my subs level matched and I always cave and go back to hot subs. It's just so boring!! It's not boomy either when I run them hot, it just gives more punch/feel/full sounds than when they are flat.
Luke you told me once it takes 2 weeks for the brain to get used to a change (such as listening to level bass). Maybe my problem is I can't make it any where close to 2 weeks before I go back to running the subs hot.
When we had the blind speaker GTG at one point I asked some of the guys how hot they thought the bass was and they thought it sounded matched but it was actually 10 db hot!

Here are some quotes I have taken from the second links in my post 189. I highly advise other to reads those threads with the links. Good stuff.

These two posts nail it for me.
dominguez1-
"Sound preference and sound quality are different things.

A flat frequency response is the Reference for sound quality. There are an infinite number of sound preferences, but only one reference.

When comparing sub sound quality, if you aren't comparing from a reference point, then the comparison doesn't really make sense.

Typically, when people make comments about how this sub has better SQ than this sub, they are comparing from their own sound preference, not sound quality reference (flat frequency response). In fact, I would go on to say that most have never even heard a true flat frequency response, let alone remembering how flat' sounds and comparing it with another sub.

So I guess I'm back to one of my questions, given that we'll likely never have the time or tools to get the correct environment to make a valid sound quality comparison, does it even make sense to make compare sound quality between subs or should you look to other characteristics of the sub that help indicate that it has the capability (flat response, headroom, output, extension, etc.) to have good sound quality?"

bossobass-
"Subjective preference has no place in a discussion of what defines subwoofer SQ.

House curve, which has bled into home audio from pro sound, is necessary to adjust the live sound in a "house" (the venue) to human hearing non-linearity across the seating area.

When reproducing recorded source, the "house curve" is already applied by the recording process. Whether someone prefers the low end distortion of a post source house curve or the high end distortion of harmonic distortion, or the entire bandwidth distortion of running the subwoofer output 'hot', or the distortion resulting from a truncated bandwidth (early roll off at either end), it's all distortion and has nothing to do with subwoofer SQ.

What's needed is a frame of reference. If, for example, every day for 30 minutes you had a capable player set up an upright bass and wail the same riffs, then after a week of that you popped in a disc of the same riffs and played it at the same playback level with any of the above 'preferred' distortion profiles, you would immediately hear the distortion.

Likewise, a subwoofer system should be capable of being set up to a flat frequency response at the LP with inaudible noise (which is what I prefer call it vs distortion as it encompasses everything from driver mechanical self noise to rattles from the room) across the entire bandwidth. Afterward, one can feel free to distort the presentation nearly any way one prefers, but he will always have a reference to refer to and to better describe his distortion preference after a quick comparison."

Bass heads want to hear bass, even if its not what the recording should sound like. I just want to hear it close to reference, how it was designed and intended to be heard. After re calibrating my brain, its weird because now even turning up the bass a couple db over where I run it now sounds off now for music, movies, dish... my "preference" has become more like "reference".

So in that sense somebody comparing supposed sq running subs 10-12db hot is listening to an entire different audio track than someone listening at the industry standard of reference. But if you listen to boring music... tongue.gif
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post #194 of 331 Old 11-15-2012, 10:15 AM
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Wow did that thread grow since my last post biggrin.gif Lots of great pointers and opinions. I can't be against virtue and also measures the FR I get. I use a BFD to try to EQ that as flat as I can but 1) the BFD does nothing below 20 Hz and 2) the flattest response is indeed a bit boring. I tried applying a gentle house curve that puts +6 dB at 20 Hz with respect to 80 Hz (crossover point) and it's much more pleasing to the ears, although my current sub lacks the headroom to keep that EQ at higher volumes. Hence my need for an upgrade and my questions regarding issues with how SVS sounds with music. And BTW that miniDSP screenshot looks awesome; appart from the UI and form factor, does the miniDSP offers many advantages EQ-wise compared to the BFD? It looks like it integrates with REW as well.

It is worth noting that two subs with the exact same REW measurement could sound differently. This is due to the fact that response measurements are not high-resolution and thus could lack details, and also the fact that the FR represents a time average (during the measurement) that does not include transients and fine-grained effects. Anybody ever compared FR performed with different methods (e.g. pink noise vs sweep)? Are they identical when used on the same sub in the same conditions? Anyway, I can believe that FR doesn't tell all the story, although it's certainly one of the most important aspect to consider.

Archaea -- your avatar FR is indeed quite flat but I was a bit surprised to see it drop at 20 Hz or so. I'd have thought that dual caps would extend much lower in-room (although you specify using a 20 Hz tune). Please be gentle with me here, those are honest questions, not flamebait, maybe it was discussed at great lengths before. Could the way music sound to you with the caps be linked to the relative lack of sub-20 Hz content? Then again most music lack 20 Hz content in the first place so I guess that point is moot. But if you like to listen at higher levels, maybe you're simply able to listen to content with, say, 80 Hz slam much louder / hotter than on subs that have an inherently flat FR (such as the SVS subs), which will compress in the 80 Hz region at that volume and sound muted in comparison. [EDIT: I just read Steve's post above, he said the same but in a much more comprehensible fashion]. My point is, maybe it's a mid-bass output issue after all. Unless, of course, you noticed the same at much quieter levels...

Back on the topic of bang for the buck, coming from a single smallish sub, I wanted to experience duals to improve uniformity in my room, but all things considered, it comes at a tremendous cost when looking at what one can afford for twice the price. The single-vs-dual sub dilemma was major for me when it came clear I'd spend around $2k on the upgrade, as the single-sub options at this price point now include the best subs one can get it seems. I guess I would never get a Captivator or a Submersive wife-approved anyway. I was able to settle on SVS's cylinders, which I'll be able to tuck in tight-ish spots.

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post #195 of 331 Old 11-15-2012, 11:10 AM
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Luke, nice info there. It all makes sense and I don't disagree. My thing is for music the level of bass varies greatly. When I listen to music and am switching between artists I adjust the bass accordingly. On a lot of my metal I need to boost the bass because the artist recorded it so low. I constantly increase or decrease the volume of the subs depending on my preference. It's very easy to do on my receiver, just the touch of a button raises or lowers the subs volume.

Bands like Tool, Faith No More, Pink Floyd, etc. I turn the subs way down to almost level matched. For bands like Slayer, Iron Maiden, Metallica, I use a 8 ish db boost. Pantera needs the most boost, at least 12. I also often use a house curve, which would mean the mid-bass isn't quite as hot.

An example would be, if I'm listening to say.... Disposable Heroes by Metallica. If I leave the bass flat it sounds fine, but when I turn up the bass I get a similar sound quality but I also get FEEL. I don't think I could ever prefer not to feel the music.

What I found in the past with my SVS subs is that if I went that hot the bass sounded too thick and muddy. With the Submersives the bass remains very tight and still sounds great.



So Luke, would you say you enjoy the sound more now that your brain has been re-wired? Do you find yourself listening to more music now or is it still mostly movies?
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post #196 of 331 Old 11-15-2012, 11:13 AM
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As you can tell, my priority is music and that's the angle I'm coming from here.

What I am saying is that producers vary greatly in how much bass they add to the mix. Some give a nice thick full sound and others it's pretty anemic. Why should I suffer through weak sounding bass just to keep it "as the artist intended" when all I have to do is press the sub volume up button a few times?
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post #197 of 331 Old 11-15-2012, 11:15 AM
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Jonathan... we need to have an intervention for Luke. wink.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #198 of 331 Old 11-15-2012, 11:26 AM
 
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carp, based on your last three posts, I submit that it is you who is in need of an intervention. tongue.gif
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post #199 of 331 Old 11-15-2012, 11:28 AM
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My brother in law was over a while back. We stayed up listening to music and drinking beer all night. He says its the best sounding home system he has heard. He is a hell of a drum player and guitarist.smile.gif

Well if you can mix better than sound engineers I think you chose the wrong profession.smile.gif

You know the artist intended for more bass but the knobs on the mixing board were broken that day.smile.gif

So your intervention is turning back the clock and putting me in my car with dual 18" and 2000 watts. I will pass.biggrin.gif

You and Jonathon have to realize that your preference and sub exposure has drastically changed since first coming over to my place as much as my system setup has changed. My subs still go as loud as before, but nothing like you guys have now. Your point of reference has changed to more, louder bass.
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post #200 of 331 Old 11-15-2012, 12:13 PM
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carp, based on your last three posts, I submit that it is you who is in need of an intervention. tongue.gif

My wife would agree with you...smile.gif
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post #201 of 331 Old 11-15-2012, 12:19 PM
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Well if you can mix better than sound engineers I think you chose the wrong profession.smile.gif

I think you may be unfamiliar with how poorly some metal music is mixed!!

I think you guys are under the impression that I crank away at 120 db's all day. Actually I'm usually right around 85dbs when listening to music.
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post #202 of 331 Old 11-15-2012, 01:01 PM
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I think you may be unfamiliar with how poorly some metal music is mixed!!
I think you guys are under the impression that I crank away at 120 db's all day. Actually I'm usually right around 85dbs when listening to music.

What does the meter read when you turn off the subs when listening to 85db?wink.gif

I have told you before I think you just need to add a tweeter on the top of the submersives and ditch the speakers.tongue.gif

I know I am being tough, and the music industry recording standard (or lack there of) is a joke. But to say you are correcting the music by running subs up to 12db hot is a bit of a stretch to say the least.smile.gif

All in good fun guys, but Archaea asked for it when he said to pm me about how two subs with different drivers, amps, and enclosures listened to days apart sound the same and I would confirm.
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post #203 of 331 Old 11-15-2012, 01:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post

My brother in law was over a while back. We stayed up listening to music and drinking beer all night. He says its the best sounding home system he has heard. He is a hell of a drum player and guitarist.smile.gif


That was the beer talking as he laid his head on your shoulder at 3AM and told you your system was the best he ever heard. biggrin.gif


Or he purpsely bumped the sub volume when you stepped out to the bathroom. Cause real talk once again --- The last few times I've been over there the bass was anemic. wink.gif

I never would have dove into this subwoofer hobby having come over to your house and heard your system the way it sounds now. Remember the day I came over and we watched Battle LA and the bottom of my pant leg flew up.....

Yeah --- I do --

yes -- those were the days.

Pull up your big boy pants and let's get back to enjoying some bass. This is the subwoofer forum afterall. cool.gif

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post #204 of 331 Old 11-15-2012, 01:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Pull up your big boy pants and let's get back to enjoying some bass.

???

This is beginning to sound like things got way off topic.

Beer, party, pull up pants. eek.gif
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post #205 of 331 Old 11-15-2012, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

That was the beer talking as he laid his head on your shoulder at 3AM and told you your system was the best he ever heard. biggrin.gif
Or he purpsely bumped the sub volume when you stepped out to the bathroom. Cause real talk once again --- The last few times I've been over there the bass was anemic. wink.gif
I never would have dove into this subwoofer hobby having come over to your house and heard your system the way it sounds now. Remember the day I came over and we watched Battle LA and the bottom of my pant leg flew up.....
Yeah --- I do --
yes -- those were the days.
Pull up your big boy pants and let's get back to enjoying some bass. This is the subwoofer forum afterall. cool.gif

Yes we got hammered!biggrin.gif It always sounds better that way!
He actually wanted to play an old Filter song that we used to crank in the cars. I told him it wouldn't be anything like he remembered as this is a balanced system. Guess what it didn't have near the overcooked low end, but sounded excellent!

Thats because we watched a crappy bass movie (Fast Five sucks for bass). They all sound like they have great bass when running 10db hot. Battle LA is still a very impressive sound movie, we can watch it again at -8 on my system if you want. My system sounds like a theater but with more extension.

I learned that pant leg flying up your leg is called port compression.

I need to get some bigger subwoofers then I can turn up the MLV even more! HAHA, if not I guess I will have to get some better speakers at some point to close in on reference.

I am glad you dove in to this hobby as well as many others here I am sure! Preference is fine, but its not reference.wink.gif
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post #206 of 331 Old 11-15-2012, 02:33 PM
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Neutro- the minidsp's are a great eq device. I don't use it but you can do biquad filtering so you can do whatever you want to do basically. I can split screen my computer with omnimic on one side and mini on the other and can see changes in real time.

http://www.minidsp.com/

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1281290/minidsp
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post #207 of 331 Old 11-15-2012, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post

Neutro- the minidsp's are a great eq device. I don't use it but you can do biquad filtering so you can do whatever you want to do basically. I can split screen my computer with omnimic on one side and mini on the other and can see changes in real time.
http://www.minidsp.com/
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1281290/minidsp

Omnimic looks awesome but the price is steeper considering I can get reasonable measurements out of my SPL meter and REW. The MiniDSP looks great but I'm a bit confused about the whole plugin thing. Maybe it will be an impulse buy someday, but I want to concentrate most of my investments into subwoofage right now biggrin.gif The BFD *did* make a difference, but I have to admit it was rather subtle and I don't think anybody but me noticed. It introduced quite a bit of clutter, ground loop hums and blinking LEDs in the picture though, hence my interest for the MiniDSP.

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post #208 of 331 Old 11-15-2012, 03:31 PM
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Omnimic looks awesome but the price is steeper considering I can get reasonable measurements out of my SPL meter and REW. The MiniDSP looks great but I'm a bit confused about the whole plugin thing. Maybe it will be an impulse buy someday, but I want to concentrate most of my investments into subwoofage right now biggrin.gif The BFD *did* make a difference, but I have to admit it was rather subtle and I don't think anybody but me noticed. It introduced quite a bit of clutter, ground loop hums and blinking LEDs in the picture though, hence my interest for the MiniDSP.

REW is the most versatile and excellent with a good rig. I just got the omni because its plug and play with an easy learning curve. Laptop and carry case you are up and running in a few minutes.

The minidsp could definitely be an easier buying experience. Its kind of a pain to figure out all you need. I have the MiniDSP 2x4 RevA with the 2way Advanced plug in and it works for me.

Here is another helpful thread on which to get.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1418095/minidsp-help

Nothing wrong with more subwoofage!
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post #209 of 331 Old 11-15-2012, 05:24 PM
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I learned that pant leg flying up your leg is called port compression.

That can't always be the case, that's happened to me with the Submersives.
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post #210 of 331 Old 11-15-2012, 05:47 PM
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That can't always be the case, that's happened to me with the Submersives.

Archaea was sitting up front on the right side. Thats when I had them both up front facing forward. His pant leg blew up on the top of his shoe. I was sitting beside him and got hit with air several times or unloading. I don't think there were any graphs out yet and I hadn't watched Battle LA yet. It is no slacker on the low end. The subs were running hot and the mlv was pretty high. I get better response everywhere with my subs separated and setup how they are now. If fact I picked up a bit of above 40hz with the rear subwoofer as its nearfield. Geeze guys sometimes I watch at -6 if its not a 5 star (if you use that rating system), you guys act like I am just crazy for having bass below 40hz a bit hot with my room gain at -8 and -6 is just silly. I like how it sounds being closer to reference now, tough.tongue.gif I have spent a lot of time optimizing my own system and it just so happens I like more the way its supposed to be now. I can probably dig up old graph that look like poo if you want.

Get a hold of me before you knock it. You haven't been over since I added lots of bass trapping and acoustic panels. Between treatment and the more balanced setup, the bass, midbass, and upper bass seem well, balanced in the system. I just think the mixing of sound (especially movies) is interesting, and I want to experience it more like the creator of the content does, thats all. Of course I want deeper bass than 30hz though.biggrin.gif

Anyways I have seriously derailed the thread.
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