The Subwoofer Recommendation by Pricepoint Thread. - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 304 Old 11-14-2012, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Steve1981. I think you'll find that carp, counsil, and luke kamp would probably agree with my subjective audio impressions on the PB12+ vs. the PB13 Ultra in my room. We heard them in the same room, on the same equipment --- at my house with only a few days separating the auditions. PM them if you like.

I'm sure they probably would. OTOH, the measurements don't appear to corroborate the story, ie that they have the same sonic signature. We can argue subjective opinions all day long, but the numbers don't lie, and those subs are quite different, which shouldn't be a big surprise all things considered.
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I'm not discounting your preference. You have no need to discount mine.

I'm not trying to discounting your preferences at all, but I think it's fair to say our idea of "great for music" is probably pretty far apart. It doesn't require much delving into your post history to find out you like your volumes high and your subs hot. I can understand why you might prefer an Epik Empire over a PB13U for example, especially once price is factored: it has a ton of output capability smack dab where it would be important for music. Me, I listen at more moderate volumes (relative to some on this forum; I've certainly never driven my system to the point where my ears were ringing afterwards), and I don't run my subs hot. A PB13U meets my goals quite nicely, but I can understand why it might not be everyone's preference.
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post #182 of 304 Old 11-14-2012, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Other's people's perspectives may be different! Feel free to post your own subwoofer recommendations by price point list and I'll link it from the first post.

PS: I've got no real complaints with your recommendations. As I've mentioned before, I recognize that SVS isn't the most dB for the $$$. Heck, I just told purbeast to look at dual FV15HPs and VTF15Hs for the 3k and 2k price points respectively (champs at the 1k and 1.3k marks), so I think it's fair to say I don't disagree with your assessments entirely.
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post #183 of 304 Old 11-14-2012, 11:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I owned a pair of SVS PB13 Ultras with the 750 watt bash amps purchased immediately after the 2011 meet, and they sounded very similar to the SVS PB12+ that I heard in the meet. Of course the SVS PB13 Ultras possessed more SPL capability, but the sound signature was nearly identical to my ears.

Interesting. I'd not expect them to sound alike based on Ilkka's measurements of the Bash PB13U and various older plus models.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests-archived/8150-svs-pb13-ultra-20-hz-tune.html#axzz2CDkLbGbZ

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests-archived/998-svs-pb12-plus-2-25-hz-tune-plus-12-3-a.html#axzz2CDkLbGbZ

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests-archived/5767-svs-20-39pc-20-hz-tune-plus-12-3-a.html#axzz2CDkLbGbZ

There are some pretty big differences in FR, as well as distortion amount and profile.

of course as you mention
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I've learned that audio memory is a terrible and biased thing in this hobby. A sub's performance is so room and listening position dependent that unless you hear two subs in the same room, on the same system with the same EQ, and loudspeaker EQ/Crossover/Delay settings 00 EVEN on the same day - a subjective comparison will sadly end up being mostly apples to oranges.


FWIW - - The graphs posted at HTS don't look like the FR graphs we captured at meet day on 2011 using counsil's REW gear (I hadn't purchased omnimic at that point and didn't know much about taking audio measurements - so counsil did all the measurements for that meet).
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1335139/2011-kansas-city-subwoofer-meet-results/0_20#post_20438080

take a look at the SVS PB12+ graph. Very flat to 20hz in my room (which has very little room gain). Compare the SVS to the other subs measured that day in the exact same position. The only null in that FR on the SVS is the 50hz null that all the single subs experienced in my room from the front mid-wall placement we used that day. The FR on that SVS PB12+ looks a lot like the typical flat to 20hz charts on the PB13U and quite a bit different than that 25hz tuned SVS FR chart taken by HTS. SVS is known for flat FR. This PB12+ met that bill nicely and was among the flattest for the 2011 meet day.

As far as measurable distortion....

I love the Jamo D7 Sub for music - it is a sealed servo controlled THX Ultra 2 certified sub. Very low distortion.
I love the Yamaha CW218V for music - it is a dual 18" PA ported sub tuned to 35hz or so, and very likely has high distortion.

Serious question/note: I'm not sure how much equipment measured distortion matters to distortion levels our human ears can actually identify. Many people love the DTS-10 and it has been shown to have somewhat comparatively ridiculous levels of distortion.



Back to work! too long of a distraction here! :P

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post #184 of 304 Old 11-14-2012, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

FWIW - - The graphs posted at HTS don't look like the FR graphs we captured at meet day on 2011 using counsil's REW gear

Of course not; in room changes everything. That doesn't change the difference between the subwoofers or suggest that they're going to sound the same because an in room measurement is different than a ground plane measurement.
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SVS is known for flat FR. This PB12+ met that bill nicely and was among the flattest for the 2011 meet day.

See that's the thing: at the time that PB12+ was produced, they weren't known for flat FR, as Ilkka's measurements demonstrate. Newer subs like the PB13U and PB12-NSD changed things considerably.
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As far as measurable distortion....

With respect to my original comment, it's a matter of amounts and the profile. Both of the older Plus subs I linked have appreciably higher distortion than the PB13U AND that distortion is dominated by second order components wheras the PB13U's distortion is mostly 3rd order from 40Hz on up. Combined with the differences in FR, it's a bit of a surprise to me that you think an old PB12+ sounds so similar to a PB13U.
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Back to work! too long of a distraction here! :P

Enjoy biggrin.gif
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post #185 of 304 Old 11-14-2012, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

FWIW - - The graphs posted at HTS don't look like the FR graphs we captured at meet day on 2011 using counsil's REW gear (I hadn't purchased omnimic at that point and didn't know much about taking audio measurements - so counsil did all the measurements for that meet).
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1335139/2011-kansas-city-subwoofer-meet-results/0_20#post_20438080
take a look at the SVS PB12+ graph. Very flat to 20hz in my room (which has very little room gain). Compare the SVS to the other subs measured that day in the exact same position. The only null in that FR on the SVS is the 50hz null that all the single subs experienced in my room from the front mid-wall placement we used that day. The FR on that SVS PB12+ looks a lot like the typical flat to 20hz charts on the PB13U and quite a bit different than that 25hz tuned SVS FR chart taken by HTS. SVS is known for flat FR. This PB12+ met that bill nicely and was among the flattest for the 2011 meet day.
As far as measurable distortion....
I love the Jamo D7 Sub for music - it is a sealed servo controlled THX Ultra 2 certified sub. Very low distortion.
I love the Yamaha CW218V for music - it is a dual 18" PA ported sub tuned to 35hz or so, and very likely has high distortion.
Serious question/note: I'm not sure how much equipment measured distortion matters to distortion levels our human ears can actually identify. Many people love the DTS-10 and it has been shown to have somewhat comparatively ridiculous levels of distortion.
Back to work! too long of a distraction here! :P

The DTS-10 has high THD at 54 hz and even that Josh has stated had a mic problem during those very high sweeps(Mic clipping adding to the THD. Dual DTS-10's won't be pushed for reference levels in room since it could achieve them outside so THD Will be low.
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post #186 of 304 Old 11-14-2012, 12:34 PM
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I think the SVS subs are fine for music. They don't have high spl in the music range for the $. The newer ones keep a relatively flat fr. (ground plane) up to limits with low distortion. I have told you before Archaea that a few days between listening might as well be a few years as far as I am concerned.wink.gif This will sound very different from an empire which is a rising slope and has lots of midbass capabilities.

My list would be pretty much the same as others already posted.
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post #187 of 304 Old 11-14-2012, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post

I think the SVS subs are fine for music. They don't have high spl in the music range for the $. The newer ones keep a relatively flat fr. (ground plane) up to limits with low distortion. I have told you before Archaea that a few days between listening might as well be a few years as far as I am concerned.wink.gif This will sound very different from an empire which is a rising slope and has lots of midbass capabilities.

No arguments from me here (for a change) smile.gif
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post #188 of 304 Old 11-14-2012, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post

I think the SVS subs are fine for music. They don't have high spl in the music range for the $. The newer ones keep a relatively flat fr. (ground plane) up to limits with low distortion. I have told you before Archaea that a few days between listening might as well be a few years as far as I am concerned.wink.gif This will sound very different from an empire which is a rising slope and has lots of midbass capabilities.

I think of course we should first define what exactly are the qualities of a sub which is "fine for music". In general it seems that the word "tight" is thrown around a lot and this is kind of surprising to me (as a sub newb) as tightness is associated with higher frequencies. I think slam and tightness is indeed something you encounter in midbass, and if a sub presents loads of outputs there, and / or if its FR is skewed toward midbass, then maybe it can be perceived as being great for music, or having more slam, etc. But if the subs were used EQed to a flat FR, and not compressed to their base response due to lack of headroom, and one still feels better for music, then I'd say the problem is not midbass output. Maybe distortion, or phase issues below the tuning frequency? Then again below the tuning frequency is extremely low and I can't see how someone would describe sub-20 Hz content as "tight". If the subs were not EQed, maybe the Empire simply happens to have a FR that fits music better, or offers headroom at the right spots.

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post #189 of 304 Old 11-14-2012, 02:29 PM
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I come from the "bass is bass" thought. Subjective talk is fun and GTG's are great, but objective data is where its at. If you know your rooms transfer function, listening levels, and desired frequency response check out databass. I believe that sound quality can be correlated with some kind of objective measurement. Being science based, I don't believe in magic...

I don't want to get into the what makes it musical discussion. It has been discussed many times before. Here are a couple with some good posts.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1034559/calling-all-gurus-what-makes-a-sub-sound

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1326089/sub-sound-quality

This is a good post and the last two paragraph are pertinent to this.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1434901/northeast-october-20th-gtg-results-thread/210#post_22562419

Different listeners will have different subjective comments, whats new.

I haven't ever done it but here is something that some might like to try.
http://harmanhowtolisten.blogspot.com/2011/01/welcome-to-how-to-listen.html

Really subwoofers should just be filling in the lower octaves in most music and shouldn't be sticking out. If they are its probably a setup issue or not enough woofage or you are listening to boom boom music.

Enjoy!

edit: fixed links
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post #190 of 304 Old 11-14-2012, 02:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Steve1981, Spilt milk at this point - but living in Maryland you missed a fun opportunity last month to both hear a bunch of different subs in the recent Gorilla83 meet, and potentially bring your PB13Ultra in for a demo aginst some of the other contenders!

I'm sure Gorilla83 will host another meet -- I strongly recommend you take one in! I'm not of the mindset that you can determine everything you want to know from a basic FR graphs and distortion numbers. They are a big part of the equation yes - but they don't tell everything.

These are my two prime examples:

1) DR-250s in carp's blind speaker meet. When taking all FR charts into perspective the FR graph weren't absurdly different than anything else in attendance, but the speakers sounded utterly different than anything else there -- as strongly agreed upon by all attendees, whether they liked the difference or not is immaterial for this discussion

a4aaeb7d_SpeakerOverlays.jpeg

2) At the Gorilla83 meet comparing the Submersive HP to the JTR Caps FR graphs one would conclude the Submersives were going to be radically better --- several people in the thread pointed out the same thing. But throughout the auditions you had multiple attendees who liked one or the other better - and the final result of which was better was somewhat split. And not even necessarily long the usual party lines of ported vs. sealed. I actually gave the nod to the triple submersives as best of show over the caps if you discount price differences. But fully believe and saw visual evidence showing the cap pair were more tactile than the submersive hp triple setup -- even with a handicap of a dozen DB in the lowest register where one would think these physical shaking things would be most occurring.

JTRCaptivatorpairvsSeatonSubmersivetriples_zps0b8b4c0d.jpg


Definately would have need more FR plots at different frequencies, compression tests, more testing of everything to account for these variances in subjective sound quality (speakers) or tactile/felt differences (subs) despite the available measured data to the contrary.

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post #191 of 304 Old 11-14-2012, 02:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Luke define "fine", vs. "great" or "fantastic"?

You are my bud, but keeping it real. You had the opportunity to buy the two SVS PB13 ultras from me for $2,220. Or a pair from counsil. At the time you had the HSU VTF-15 pair.

We all swap out stuff obsessively in this hobby.

I couldn't understand at the time, and still don't know why you wouldn't have sold the HSU VTF-15H subs you had and replaced them with the SVS PB13 Ultra pair for a mere $200 more in outlay if you really thought they were significantly worthwhile after demoing them. There is my confusion... I know your room has better room gain, and you don't need the extra umpf the SVS had down low, but charts and graphs show the SVS is clearly superior to the HSU VTF-15H. So if charts and graphs tell it all -- Why not buy the SVS PB13 Ultra and sell off your HSUs? You'd have lost very little $.


Still buds right? tongue.gif

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post #192 of 304 Old 11-14-2012, 02:46 PM
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Speakers are a completely different can of worms. Multiple tweeters, directional frequencies, polar plots.....

1) Bringing speakers into a subwoofer sound talk is immaterial for this discussion.

2) Different listening levels.... I am sorry but you saw my pm, I don't think thats a very scientific comparison.

SCIENCE tongue.gif
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post #193 of 304 Old 11-14-2012, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Luke define "fine", vs. "great" or "fantastic"?
You are my bud, but keeping it real. You had the opportunity to buy the two SVS PB13 ultras from me for $2,220. Or a pair from counsil. At the time you had the HSU VTF-15 pair.
We all swap out stuff obsessively in this hobby.
I couldn't at the time, and don't know understand why you wouldn't have sold the HSU VTF-15H subs you had and replaced them with the SVS PB13 Ultra pair for a mere $200 more in outlay if you really thought they were significantly worthwhile after demoing them. There is my confusion... I know your room has better room gain, and you don't need the extra umpf the SVS had down low, but charts and graphs show the SVS is clearly superior to the HSU VTF-15H. So if charts and graphs tell it all -- Why not buy the SVS PB13 Ultra and sell off your HSUs? You'd have lost very little $.
Still buds right? tongue.gif

And I told you that I am subwoofer limited with my HSU above 40hz. So how would changing to pb 13 ultra's help? I would of had to sell mine, raise my screen, basically do a bunch of stuff, to gain a couple db's WHERE I AM LIMITED NOW.

Why haven't I switched out, well I plan on only doing that once. Right now depending on the results of the in box tests, 4 of the dayton 18's, flatpacks, and something like a crown 5000 watt are looking nice.tongue.gif

Still buds but I do enjoy a spirited discussion!!
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post #194 of 304 Old 11-14-2012, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post

I come from the "bass is bass" thought. Subjective talk is fun and GTG's are great, but objective data is where its at. If you know your rooms transfer function, listening levels, and desired frequency response check out databass. I believe that sound quality can be correlated with some kind of objective measurement. Being science based, I don't believe in magic...

Again, agree.
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post #195 of 304 Old 11-14-2012, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Steve1981, Spilt milk at this point - but living in Maryland you missed a fun opportunity last month to both hear a bunch of different subs in the recent Gorilla83 meet, and potentially bring your PB13Ultra in for a demo aginst some of the other contenders!

Yeah I know. Of course, it's not exactly likely I'll be getting out all day on a weekend for some time; got a 1 year old running around (he actually turned one on the 17th of Oct, which really clashed with the GTG). Suffice it to say, family life is going to be the priority over road trips to PA for the near future eek.gif
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I'm not of the mindset that you can determine everything you want to know from a basic FR graphs and distortion numbers.

Of course not; even with Ricci's battery of measurements, the subwoofer is only one part of the equation. The room is a huge variable, not to mention user preferences/expectations.
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

At the Gorilla83 meet comparing the Submersive HP to the JTR Caps FR graphs one would conclude the Submersives were going to be radically better ....Definately would have need more FR plots at different frequencies, compression tests, more testing of everything to account for these variances in subjective sound quality (speakers) or tactile/felt differences (subs) despite the available measured data to the contrary.

I don't think anyone would say that a single FR run can define sound quality. As you note, you'd need a full battery of tests to really determine what happened, objectively speaking.
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post #196 of 304 Old 11-14-2012, 05:16 PM
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I'm not a big fan of budget subs. There are a few threads that might help you in that arena. To me I think they are all pretty terrible. But I guess that's based on your expectations and needs.
My advice is to save up until you can buy at least a BIC F12 -- and that's pretty much my minimal recommendation. I've not heard the Dayton 12" - so I can't comment..
Truly I'd recommend saving up $300 and buying the Klipsch RW-12D. Better experience all around.

What about the Klipsch SW-450 at half price?
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post #197 of 304 Old 11-14-2012, 10:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Never heard it -- but I'm going to say objectively don't do it. I wouldn't pay $250 for that compared to $300 for the RW-12D because the specs look all around worse on the SW-450.
  1. worse FR quote.
  2. smaller 10" driver
  3. less amp power RMS
  4. no digital DSP panel

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post #198 of 304 Old 11-14-2012, 10:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981 
I don't run my subs hot.

sicko

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Kamp 
Really subwoofers should just be filling in the lower octaves in most music and shouldn't be sticking out. If they are its probably a setup issue or not enough woofage or you are listening to boom boom music.

What happend to you man? You pretty much introduced me to this hobby with your HSU sub running so hot it made my 'grin muscles' sore listening to The Incredible Hulk stomp around. Who are you and what'd you do with my friend Luke?






The world's gone crazy! tongue.gif

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post #199 of 304 Old 11-14-2012, 11:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

sicko
What happend to you man? You pretty much introduced me to this hobby with your HSU sub running so hot it made my 'grin muscles' sore listening to The Incredible Hulk stomp around. Who are you and what'd you do with my friend Luke?
The world's gone crazy! tongue.gif

I got measurement equipment.wink.gif

With my room treatments I can listen at a much higher overall listening level and got accustomed to more level bass. My subs can't run clean at reference so -8 is the usual volume I listen to full length movies. I do still have a bit of a house curve. I would like to go lower and louder, but who doesn't.biggrin.gif

gain matched, one up front and one in back opposite corner, 16hz tune q.3 eq1 and then minidsp shelf on top of that pulling down low end some. This is with center channel speaker.

posteqfreqresponse.jpg

myeq.png
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post #200 of 304 Old 11-15-2012, 05:36 AM
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As to how the SVS subs sound for music, I thought the Ultras sounded a lot like my old SVS subs (I had a pci 20-39 cylinder and a dual 12 sub that I don't remember the model) in that they just didn't sound "lively", they just sounded a little (no offense, all IMO) boring. For movies I was impressed but with music I didn't get into it until we combined the Yamaha pro-style sub and even then I thought the Captivator sounded better for music.

Eh... it's all opinion and I'm sure some prefer the SVS for music.

On the subject of hot bass - I've tried and tried to listen to my subs level matched and I always cave and go back to hot subs. It's just so boring!! It's not boomy either when I run them hot, it just gives more punch/feel/full sounds than when they are flat.

Luke you told me once it takes 2 weeks for the brain to get used to a change (such as listening to level bass). Maybe my problem is I can't make it any where close to 2 weeks before I go back to running the subs hot.

When we had the blind speaker GTG at one point I asked some of the guys how hot they thought the bass was and they thought it sounded matched but it was actually 10 db hot!
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post #201 of 304 Old 11-15-2012, 06:15 AM
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Quote:
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sicko

Well that's hardly my worst offense in the world of HT/audio. I happen to think surround sound is a stupid gimmick too tongue.gif

I currently own a 5.1 setup, but at this point, dreams of the future involve 2.1 or 2.2.
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post #202 of 304 Old 11-15-2012, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

As to how the SVS subs sound for music, I thought the Ultras sounded a lot like my old SVS subs (I had a pci 20-39 cylinder and a dual 12 sub that I don't remember the model) in that they just didn't sound "lively", they just sounded a little (no offense, all IMO) boring. For movies I was impressed but with music I didn't get into it until we combined the Yamaha pro-style sub and even then I thought the Captivator sounded better for music.
Eh... it's all opinion and I'm sure some prefer the SVS for music.
On the subject of hot bass - I've tried and tried to listen to my subs level matched and I always cave and go back to hot subs. It's just so boring!! It's not boomy either when I run them hot, it just gives more punch/feel/full sounds than when they are flat.
Luke you told me once it takes 2 weeks for the brain to get used to a change (such as listening to level bass). Maybe my problem is I can't make it any where close to 2 weeks before I go back to running the subs hot.
When we had the blind speaker GTG at one point I asked some of the guys how hot they thought the bass was and they thought it sounded matched but it was actually 10 db hot!

Appreciate the perspective and thoughts carp; no offense taken (on my end at least).

If I were to take an offhand guess, I'd say your impressions (and Archaea's) go back to Luke's comments with respect to SVS's output capability in the 40Hz on up range for the $$$. It doesn't take much time looking at measurements of SVS subwoofers (particularly the newer models) to realize their goal is strong extension down to 20Hz combined with good bandwidth linearity. Unfortunately, that does mean sacrificing output capability higher up in the range, and in a room with gain, the flat FR (even up to the limits) can mean a bottom heavy response without good EQ to scrub off excess energy in the lowest octaves.

As mentioned, I've clearly got a different usage pattern, and my mileage does as a result vary. I'm not pushing things hard enough to reach the limits; in fact I never once tripped the limiter on my old PC12-NSD while listening to music (even when I went out of my way to try), although it was a regular occurrence for HT. I've also got a reasonably flat in room FR at my listening position (at least in the range that the sub covers), so as a result, it was/is a bit odd for me to read some of the commentary regarding SVS's music performance. However, coupled with your comments regarding your usage, it does make some sense.
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I happen to think surround sound is a stupid gimmick too tongue.gif
I currently own a 5.1 setup, but at this point, dreams of the future involve 2.1 or 2.2.

???

???

???

WTF!???

Now that's a concept I simply cannot find a way to wrap my think around.

I know we all know this, including sound, our world is a three dimensional world and our hearing senses are genetically developed to hear in 3-D.

???

Did I stumble into a briar patch and instead of asking questions should I be keeping my head down?
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post #204 of 304 Old 11-15-2012, 06:36 AM
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I know we all know this, including sound, our world is a three dimensional world and our hearing senses are genetically developed to hear in 3-D.???

Yeah, except the TV I'm staring at is unabashedly 2D and all the action is happening right in front of me tongue.gif I'd also add that a good 2.1 setup envelops me quite well, though YMMV.

It's a personal opinion of course, and I know it's not one that everyone shares. Get your torches and pitchforks ready.
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post #205 of 304 Old 11-15-2012, 06:42 AM
 
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It's a personal opinion of course, and I know it's not one that everyone shares. Get your torches and pitchforks ready.

Like you I've got so many years with 2-D televisions, the visual cortex has adapted. Maybe I can convince you to go with a killer 3.2 system. ??? tongue.gif
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Maybe I can convince you to go with a killer 3.2 system. ??? tongue.gif

Depends on the situation. Right now the only ones that are watching are me and the wife, and my wife could probably be happy with TV speakers. That means I get the sweet spot and a phantom center would do the job for $0 extra biggrin.gif
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Depends on the situation. Right now the only ones that are watching are me and the wife, and my wife could probably be happy with TV speakers. That means I get the sweet spot and a phantom center would do the job for $0 extra biggrin.gif

On my part, the rub, you've never struck me as a zero dollar, save-a-buck kind-a-guy.

Like your wife, my wife listens with headphones and has no dislike of the television's speakers. If she never came out from under her headphones, she'd be happy as a clam in a gentle, sandy tide zone.

Now on the other hand, there's my idea of front sound wall which is a pair of killer subs, flanking a pair of killer floor standing speakers, sandwiching a killer center channel. No saving money on this front line wall of sound. Buy big cause this is home.

-
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post #208 of 304 Old 11-15-2012, 06:59 AM
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On my part, the rub, you've never struck me as a zero dollar, save-a-buck kind-a-guy.

To be sure, I'm goal oriented; I'm not going to save a buck and sacrifice performance. However, I'm not confident that I can discern a great difference on the front stage from my sweet spot between my RF-5s playing alone or coupling them with my RC-35 center (though admittedly I haven't spent a lot of time worrying about it lately). Outside of the sweet spot, things of course change, and to my knowledge that is THE argument for a center channel.
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To be sure, I'm goal oriented. However, I'm not confident that I can discern a great difference on the front stage from my sweet spot between my RF-5s playing alone or coupling them with my RC-35 center (though admittedly I haven't spent a lot of time worrying about it lately). Outside of the sweet spot, things of course change, and to my knowledge that is THE argument for a center channel.

I just recently stepped up to a b-stock, RC64-II from a Klipsch, KV-4 to match up with our Klipsch, Epic, CF-3's and in the simple, it rocks and has made a huge, now that's what I'm talking about, listenability difference.

Think steak > rib-eye > choice rib-eye > 1" choice rib-eye > 1" prime rib-eye > 2" prime rib-eye. Now we're talking rib-eye with Wagyu beef being the con of an overly fat piece of grease with some protein mixed in. biggrin.gif And if someone likes their fat with some tender protein mixed in, go for it. The point, we both understand the need to have a pair of killer, can do the job, subwoofers and when we're being conned and when we're shortchanging ourselves.

.........................rolleyes.gif

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post #210 of 304 Old 11-15-2012, 07:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Steve1981,

My avatar pic is the subwoofer frequency response in my room at my main listening position with my pair of captivators (it's flat as a pancake) and I love them for music. More pics under my theater room link in my sig.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
Archaea's Theatre Room
2011 KC Sub Shootout
2012 KC Blind Sub Shootout
My Subwoofer Recommendations by Pricepoint
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