help me upgrade from a supercube ii - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 30 Old 08-19-2012, 08:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello everyone,

I'm thinking that it may be time for an upgrade for my subwoofer. I currently have a def tech supercube ii and while I've been relatively happy with it, I've got the upgrade itch. One of the main reasons I'm thinking of an upgrade is because of the hideous falloff as seen here

http://www.hometheater.com/content/definitive-technology-studiocinema-350-ht-labs-measures

I'm not a bass head in the sense that total output isn't high on my list of priorities. I'm looking mostly for how clean/tight the bass is and usable bass extension. I know that ID subs are a much better value than box store subs but without being able to audition it in persons, it's hard for me to grasp how good they are. I've been looking mostly at the epik legend, svs sb12-nsd, and hsu vtf-2 mk 4. the sb12 doesn't give a bass extension rating so I'm not sure how low it will go and the vtf-2 mk4 doesn't give a +-3db rating.

will any of their budget-friendly subwoofers be an upgrade or do I need to look into increasing my price range to get noticeably better quality?
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post #2 of 30 Old 08-19-2012, 12:56 PM - Thread Starter
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I've also been told that the rhythmik FV12 would be a viable option. I've never owned or, to my knowledge, listened to a servo powered subwoofer. The only other servo powered sub I know of is the Martin Logan Grotto i. I work for best buy and could get the grotto for about the same price. I could also get any of the dynamo subs for much less than the ID subs. I can also do the B&W ASW610 in the same price range.

Can anyone help me sort through the different options assuming they are all relatively equal in price??? confused.gif too many options

Also, any ideas on how much I could expect to get for a pristine condition SCII?
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post #3 of 30 Old 08-19-2012, 01:02 PM
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The Supercube's -3 db down at 27 hz isn't really all that atrocious. If you want substantially better extension, you need to get a ported sub. If you can stretch your budget to a Hsu VTF3, that will get you an honest-to-god 16 hz at 2 db down. That is easily the deepest extension you can get at that price point. You might also look at the Outlaw Audio subs, specifically the Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Plus, if you cant afford the extra $100 that the VTF3 will cost.
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post #4 of 30 Old 08-19-2012, 01:08 PM
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ID subs outperform store bought subs. Any of the ID subs you mentioned are great. I have a hsu 2.3 and do not regret getting the 2.4 for q control. Also, I added a hsu 3.3 on the cheap used. Worked out nicely. Personally I would recommend the epik or hsu. X2 even, for cleaner, tighter bass like you want.

butter and jelly please.
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post #5 of 30 Old 08-19-2012, 01:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pukemon View Post

ID subs outperform store bought subs. Any of the ID subs you mentioned are great. I have a hsu 2.3 and do not regret getting the 2.4 for q control. Also, I added a hsu 3.3 on the cheap used. Worked out nicely. Personally I would recommend the epik or hsu. X2 even, for cleaner, tighter bass like you want.
butter and jelly please.

It seems hard to believe that all ID subs will out perform all retail purchased subs. I realize that the ID subs have a much much better performance for dollar, but I'm also not buying the retail subs at anywhere near their MSRP. I'm wondering, if pricing is all equal, which will perform the best.

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The Supercube's -3 db down at 27 hz isn't really all that atrocious.

the -3 at 27hz isn't too bad, but it goes to inaudible levels extremely quickly and certain tracks it seems to just miss certain instruments and sounds. This is the main reason I'm looking at possibly upgrading. I'll definitely check out the subs you mentioned, thanks for the advice.
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post #6 of 30 Old 08-19-2012, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simp1yamazn View Post

I've also been told that the rhythmik FV12 would be a viable option.

The FV12 has been out of production for months, so you can scratch that one off your list.

What's your budget? Room size? Is WAF a consideration? There's some pertinent information missing that will help with the suggestions you get. Check out this thread to get an idea of the type of information necessary to ensure the suggestions you get are something that fits your needs.

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post #7 of 30 Old 08-19-2012, 07:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Is there going to be a new version to replace FV12?

Budget is around $600, including whatever income I can get from selling the SCii. My room isn't too large, it's about 10x15 with 8 foot high ceilings. WAF isn't an issue, she doesn't really care how it looks. A smaller cabinet would be nice, but realistically it's not a huge issue. As far as usage is concerned, it's probably 90% HT and 10% music. HOWEVER, musicality and performance for music is actually more important to me. As I said before, total output isn't a big factor for me.
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post #8 of 30 Old 08-19-2012, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simp1yamazn View Post

Is there going to be a new version to replace FV12?

Yes. The last projected time I heard was by the end of this year, but the way things go it might be the beginning of next to be honest.

 
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Budget is around $600, including whatever income I can get from selling the SCii. My room isn't too large, it's about 10x15 with 8 foot high ceilings. WAF isn't an issue, she doesn't really care how it looks. A smaller cabinet would be nice, but realistically it's not a huge issue. As far as usage is concerned, it's probably 90% HT and 10% music. HOWEVER, musicality and performance for music is actually more important to me. As I said before, total output isn't a big factor for me.

The Epik Legend and HSU VTF-2 immediately spring to mind. If music is really that critical for you there's also the SVS SB12-NSD. It can handle HT and music with equal aplomb, especially in a smaller room like yours.

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post #9 of 30 Old 08-20-2012, 07:13 AM - Thread Starter
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thanks for the insight, I really appreciate it. It's interesting that even at the hugely discounted pricing I can get for the ML or B&W subs that no one seems to reccomend them. Not doubting you guys, I guess I just need to re-learn value in speakers.
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The Epik Legend and HSU VTF-2 immediately spring to mind. If music is really that critical for you there's also the SVS SB12-NSD. It can handle HT and music with equal aplomb, especially in a smaller room like yours.

The vtf-2 says that, with the ports both open it will do 18hz. Do you know if that is for + 3db or + 6db?

also, can anyone give me a reasonable idea of how much I can expect to get for a mint condition SCii??
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post #10 of 30 Old 08-20-2012, 07:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Just out of curiosity, how would a Def Tech Supercube Reference or new Supercube 8000 compare in just performance? Not performance for dollar amount. Remember, the retail subs I'm asking about I can get in the same price range as the ID subs.
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post #11 of 30 Old 08-20-2012, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simp1yamazn View Post

thanks for the insight, I really appreciate it. It's interesting that even at the hugely discounted pricing I can get for the ML or B&W subs that no one seems to reccomend them. Not doubting you guys, I guess I just need to re-learn value in speakers.

For a room the size of yours I wouldn't totally discount an ML Dynamo 1000, depending upon the price. For me, it's hard to imagine it being worth $1000. But if you can get a substantial discount? That might change the story.

 
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The vtf-2 says that, with the ports both open it will do 18hz. Do you know if that is for + 3db or + 6db?

Knowing HSU it's probably + 3dB. They don't strike me as the type of company that embellishes their numbers.

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post #12 of 30 Old 08-20-2012, 08:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

For a room the size of yours I wouldn't totally discount an ML Dynamo 1000, depending upon the price. For me, it's hard to imagine it being worth $1000. But if you can get a substantial discount? That might change the story.

For the sake of simplicity, here are prices I can get.

Dynamo 1000 $340
Grotto i $480
SC Reference $570
SC 8000 $450

At these prices, do any of them compete?
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post #13 of 30 Old 08-20-2012, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simp1yamazn View Post

For the sake of simplicity, here are prices I can get.
Dynamo 1000 $340
Grotto i $480
SC Reference $570
SC 8000 $450
At these prices, do any of them compete?

Wow, that is some great pricing on the Dynamo and the SC reference. At those prices, I'd buy 2 for sure!!
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post #14 of 30 Old 08-20-2012, 08:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Does anyone have any experience with any of these retail subs vs the ID? Or, does anyone in the DC metro area have any of the ID subs so I could listen to them?
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post #15 of 30 Old 08-20-2012, 08:43 AM
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First how the heck are you getting prices like that legally?

Second, I just bought a SC8000 (at a far,far greater cost).

And while I've never had a good sub before and never heard and of the ID subs mentioned here I don't think you'll find one new with shipping that would out perform the SC8000 or Reference at those prices especially if you were to get a pair of either.

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post #16 of 30 Old 08-20-2012, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simp1yamazn View Post

For the sake of simplicity, here are prices I can get.
Dynamo 1000 $340
Grotto i $480
SC Reference $570
SC 8000 $450
At these prices, do any of them compete?

If those are new units in factory sealed boxes then the prices are insanely good! I'd buy the Reference and be done with it. Hard to imagine much else being able to compete for that price. Tell you what, you buy the Reference and I'll take the Dynamo 1000. Deal? (and no, I'm not kidding smile.gif)

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post #17 of 30 Old 08-20-2012, 10:48 AM
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Between the SC Reference and the SC 8000 the trade-offs involve things like size, sheer performance, and convenience. We know from Kini that the SC 8000 is both a very good performer and quite convenient with the remote control. It is also less expensive than the SC Reference. The SC 8000 will be a significantly better performer than your SC II.

The Reference is a better performer and your prices are quite remarkable. If you don't mind the size of the Reference and the upcharge of $120, you can't go wrong.

My personal experience owning a remote control sub makes that feature highly desireable.

Tough having all these choices tongue.gif

PS Member OTK has been the Def Tech guru here on AVS for many years and owns 6 Def Tech 15 inch subs as well as Def Tech tower speakers, IIRC. OTK has also engaged in lengthy emailing with Craig Chase of Chase Home Theater. I don't bring OTK into the discussion without good reason.
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post #18 of 30 Old 08-20-2012, 10:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

First how the heck are you getting prices like that legally?
Second, I just bought a SC8000 (at a far,far greater cost).
And while I've never had a good sub before and never heard and of the ID subs mentioned here I don't think you'll find one new with shipping that would out perform the SC8000 or Reference at those prices especially if you were to get a pair of either.

I work for Best Buy's Magnolia Home Theater and can get vendor accomodation direct pricing which is usually a good amount below Best Buy's costs. I guess I should have specified pricing earlier, it was really messing with my head that so many were adament that the $600 ID subs would be a better option.

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If those are new units in factory sealed boxes then the prices are insanely good! I'd buy the Reference and be done with it. Hard to imagine much else being able to compete for that price. Tell you what, you buy the Reference and I'll take the Dynamo 1000. Deal? (and no, I'm not kidding smile.gif)

They are brand new, straight from ML/Def Tech. I think I'm going to go with the Reference unless someone has a compelling reason not to. Also, if anyone is looking for a SCii, I happen to know someone who has one for sale biggrin.gif
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post #19 of 30 Old 08-20-2012, 11:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Right I'm using Def Tech StudioMonitor 65's as my mains. Would blending be better with the Reference or the SC8000, or would it be a toss up between the two?
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post #20 of 30 Old 08-20-2012, 11:35 AM
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If you want the DEFINITIVE answer to your questions you should peruse this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/625807/definitive-owners-thread/120

and seek out member OTK who is the Def Tech guru on this Forum, and has been for years. smile.gif
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post #21 of 30 Old 08-20-2012, 07:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks. I just sent him a message asking for his insight. Anyone with any thoughts on how the martinlogan grotto would stack up against the two def tech subs?
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post #22 of 30 Old 09-02-2012, 04:13 PM - Thread Starter
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So due to some unforeseen expenses, my budget has dropped to about $350 which a complete buzz kill, but hey, what can I do? My new options I'm looking at are the def tech supercube 6000 ($300), Martin Logan Dynamo 1000 ($300), or any ID subs that would be comparable. Any thoughts or suggestions?
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post #23 of 30 Old 09-02-2012, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simp1yamazn View Post

So due to some unforeseen expenses, my budget has dropped to about $350 which a complete buzz kill, but hey, what can I do? My new options I'm looking at are the def tech supercube 6000 ($300), Martin Logan Dynamo 1000 ($300), or any ID subs that would be comparable. Any thoughts or suggestions?

Tough call between the. SC6000, and Dynamo. I would probably get the Dynamo.
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post #24 of 30 Old 09-02-2012, 07:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Thats what I'm leaning towards right now.
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post #25 of 30 Old 09-02-2012, 08:16 PM
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Since you are getting those subs for about 1/3 MSRP, I don't think that the ID subs will offer better value for you.

I agree. Go with the Martin Logan. Without having heard either, I'd trust the 12" 500 watt RMS sub to out perform that 9" woofer in the SC in terms of max output and low frequency extension. But I could be wrong.

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post #26 of 30 Old 09-03-2012, 03:00 AM
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Supercubes have a sweet punch that most other subs don't. They don't dig as deep as the bigger ID subs. Room size and max SPL are factore to think about.. Hell at those prices, try them and then sell them for way more then you paid.. Then buy a monster sub with the profits if need be..
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post #27 of 30 Old 09-03-2012, 06:40 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm leaning towards the ML in large part because the frequency response (according to hometheater.com graphs) below 30hz is much better with a smother roll-off.

I have to sign a form declaring I won't sell any product I buy through accommodations for at least two years and it just isn't worth risking my job to do so, but I certainly have been tempted to do so.
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post #28 of 30 Old 09-03-2012, 08:14 AM
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I found some measurements in this review at hometheater.com. The ML 1000 is getting good output down to the low 20hz range. Given you were thinking of spending $600 before, one would be good, but two of these would be awesome. A dual sub setup can give you a flatter frequency response in your room, and a more even response through a wider listening area over one.

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post #29 of 30 Old 09-03-2012, 08:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Just to throw out another option, how would the B&W asw610 stack up? ($325)
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post #30 of 30 Old 09-03-2012, 09:47 AM
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It's a 10" vs the 12" in the ML, and looks like it has a smaller amp, too. So you won't get as much output in your room. Generally 10" sealed subs with that kind of amplification are really best suited for small rooms.

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