CHT VS 18.1 Test Results - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 116 Old 08-23-2012, 11:22 AM - Thread Starter
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FYI - Hopefully not a duplicate posting anywhere. From over at CHT Forum:

https://www.chasehometheater.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5286

"Hi all - I received an email today from Josh, and the results are done on the VS-18.1.

Josh tested the unit as both a passive subwoofer with a pro-audio amp and with our new SUB1 BASH amp.

1. The VS-18.1 is $700 as a passive unit
2. The VS-18.1 is $1095 with the SUB1
3. The VS-18.1 pair is $1745 with the SUB 1

A Sub1 used with a pair of VS-18.1's will yield 5 dB more SPL than the single - the Sub1 does not quite "double down" in the lower impedence.

We asked Josh to test the unit both as a passive subwoofer and an "active" subwoofer with the SUB1 because we wanted to give people an idea regarding both ways to incorporate a VS-18.1 (or duals/quads).

One question was "how much performance will I give up by going with the BASH amp over a pro amp"?

Here are the CEA-2010 numbers from Josh for both Passive and SUB1 driven units:

Frequency ....... Passive VS-18.1 ......... VS-18.1 & SUB1
16 Hz .................. 101.4 dB .................... 101.3 dB
20 Hz .................. 111.1 dB .................... 107.4 dB
25 Hz .................. 113.9 dB .................... 112 dB
31.5 Hz ............... 116.1 dB .................... 116 dB
40 Hz .................. 119.2 dB .................... 118.1 dB
50 Hz .................. 121.8 dB .................... 117.8 dB
63 Hz .................. 121.5 dB .................... 117.2 dB

Avg. 16-63 Hz ........ 115.1 dB ................... 112.8 dB

These numbers match up well with both Apollonio's test using the Dayton amp, and also with our results here.

A pro-amp does deliver more SPL.

A SUB-1 does quite well, and has the benefit of having no fan, is bullet proof and comes with a 5 year warranty.

I have limited the report to 16-63 Hz for now, because this is the "wheelhouse" for a subwoofer system.

The SUB-1 is much more limited in the 80-125 Hz range, in comparison to the pro amp.

When all the results are compiled, I think analysis will show that the concept of allowing both options (passive or with a SUB-1 amp) makes a lot of sense."
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post #2 of 116 Old 08-23-2012, 11:40 AM
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tab2k.jpg


Impressive from a ported. No doubt box volume came into play. Still, the form factor is workable. Two of those and a pro amp would be killer.
Anxious to see the 80,100,125hz results.

You'll rarely hear anyone say, "I wish I'd gotten less Sub."

$ubwoofer$ and premium mango tree cultivar$

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post #3 of 116 Old 08-23-2012, 11:40 AM
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What pro amp was used to get the results with the passive sub?

Very nice looking numbers. These subs look like the real deal considering all the grief some people have given them on this forum over the years.
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post #4 of 116 Old 08-23-2012, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

FYI - Hopefully not a duplicate posting anywhere. From over at CHT Forum:
https://www.chasehometheater.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5286

I posted this in the CHT owner's forum, but it doesn't have great visibility... otherwise, you wouldn't have posted this. tongue.gif

A single passive VS-18.1 hooked up to a pro amp is a great option for many people wanting to get great performance for a low dollar amount .

resolution good....
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post #5 of 116 Old 08-23-2012, 01:01 PM
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Nice, this thing is basically equaling the performance of a PB13 at 25 hz and above for half the price. It would be so much easier to recommend these products if the the business owner didn't behave so erratically.
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post #6 of 116 Old 08-23-2012, 01:04 PM
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It looks like Ricci has added a bit more information to this over on CHT's site.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci@chasehometheater.com View Post

I should have all of the stuff up on Data-Bass shortly.

As regards the CEA-2010 testing.
If you look at the output differences between using the Sub1 and the pro amp there is not a lot of difference between 16-40Hz. Only a dB or so except at 20 and 25Hz. The differences in that range are because that is where driver excursion is minimized near the port tuning (Especially at 20Hz.) so it can take more power than at other frequencies. The small differences at 16, 31.5 and 40Hz indicate that the VS18.1 driver can't make use of much more power at these frequencies. This points to the Sub1 being a good match for the VS18.1 with just the right amount of power to get everything out of the cabinet below 40Hz without running it into the danger zone. The only distress noises I could get from the VS18.1 with the Sub1 were when it was driven very hard below tuning. It should be a bulletproof combo in practice.

Now at 50Hz and above the driver excursion continues to drop which allows more and more input power to be applied during the bursts with the pro amp which is why you will see greatly increased output 50-125Hz versus with the Sub1 amp. However the danger here is that the amount of voltage applied at the top end bass frequencies during the CEA-2010 bursts would easily blow apart the driver if applied at too low of a frequency or fry the coil if applied for more than a few seconds so the application of a herculean sized pro amp to the VS18.1 is a dangerous proposition unless careful set-up of HPF and limiting circuits is employed. Long story short... The VS18.1 has a rather good sensitivity and really doesn't need anymore than a pro amp with 500-800w per cab to extract the best it has to give. Anymore might be getting into the danger zone.

The amplifier used for testing is a Powersoft K10 on a 240v 50a ac line, bridged. .

resolution good....
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post #7 of 116 Old 08-23-2012, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Nice, this thing is basically equaling the performance of a PB13 at 25 hz and above for half the price. It would be so much easier to recommend these products if the the business owner didn't behave so erratically.

We should have an owner erratic scale rating for each ID company.... biggrin.gif

resolution good....
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post #8 of 116 Old 08-23-2012, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by AVrebel View Post

We should have an owner erratic scale rating for each ID company.... biggrin.gif

Well, things change. Awhile ago ED didn't seem bad at all, but now look at them. Chase looks like they have a solid product line-up, so if they can simply support their products with no drama, it will get easier to recommend their stuff as time goes on. Years ago, the guys from SVS used to participate in heated debates about their stuff, and even though they made good points in defense of their products, I think they ultimately didn't do themselves any favors by being in those arguments at all. They are way more professional nowadays, and that certainly benefits the company's image.
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post #9 of 116 Old 08-23-2012, 01:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TnTBigman View Post

tab2k.jpg
Impressive from a ported. No doubt box volume came into play. Still, the form factor is workable. Two of those and a pro amp would be killer.
Anxious to see the 80,100,125hz results.

I'm also anxious to see the 64-100hz results. I'm thinking 2 of these and an EP4000 would be a killer combo for the money. Probably would be prudent to run a HPF with it though.
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post #10 of 116 Old 08-23-2012, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Well, things change. Awhile ago ED didn't seem bad at all, but now look at them. Chase looks like they have a solid product line-up, so if they can simply support their products with no drama, it will get easier to recommend their stuff as time goes on. Years ago, the guys from SVS used to participate in heated debates about their stuff, and even though they made good points in defense of their products, I think they ultimately didn't do themselves any favors by being in those arguments at all. They are way more professional nowadays, and that certainly benefits the company's image.

Great points Shady.

I can still remember the explosion back when I poster named Billy something compared a SVS to a HSU and preferred the HSU. Talk about drama!! Now SVS wouldn't even consider getting involved in that kind of debate. Man, that had to be over 10 years ago... back then hometheaterforum was very active and very pro SVS.
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post #11 of 116 Old 08-23-2012, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Well, things change. Awhile ago ED didn't seem bad at all, but now look at them. Chase looks like they have a solid product line-up, so if they can simply support their products with no drama, it will get easier to recommend their stuff as time goes on. Years ago, the guys from SVS used to participate in heated debates about their stuff, and even though they made good points in defense of their products, I think they ultimately didn't do themselves any favors by being in those arguments at all. They are way more professional nowadays, and that certainly benefits the company's image.

Let me caveat this by saying that I don't own any Chase product and don't know Craig at all. But I do think there is a fine line between being passionate and wanting to defend your products and coming across as erratic. If a product is taking heat or being questioned, by forum members or gets a bad review, I think the vendor/owner has every right to explain their side of the story. It goes both ways. Yes, sometimes people that are passionate can take things too far, but there are also some serious a$$holes out there that bash product that they have never even heard. ID companies live and die by the Internet and forums like AVS, so if there are people out there presenting false information or bad mouthing a company for no reason (especially if they have never even heard their product) I think Craig was well within his right to defend his product. And I can tell you with Chase there are several people who seem to have a personal vendetta with the company and have never even heard the product.

This is why it is so nice to see Ricci's review since we can see the CEA results. This sub is a lot of sub for the money. My biggest problem, historically, with their products are the WAF factor....
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post #12 of 116 Old 08-23-2012, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Chase looks like they have a solid product line-up, so if they can simply support their products with no drama, it will get easier to recommend their stuff as time goes on.
As far as customer support goes, I'd say CHT is doing pretty well: To date, I can think of only one customer dissatisfied enough with CHT to vent about it publicly.

As far as "drama" is concerned, I do think CHT has had a couple of mis-steps, but slaggers were primarily to blame. There has been no slagging recently and, consequently, there has been no drama recently. I hope this trend continues. smile.gif

That being said, I hope that CHT continues to do well, and that it continues to do right by its customers. cool.gif
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post #13 of 116 Old 08-23-2012, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

Let me caveat this by saying that I don't own any Chase product and don't know Craig at all. But I do think there is a fine line between being passionate and wanting to defend your products and coming across as erratic. If a product is taking heat or being questioned, by forum members or gets a bad review, I think the vendor/owner has every right to explain their side of the story. It goes both ways. Yes, sometimes people that are passionate can take things too far, but there are also some serious a$$holes out there that bash product that they have never even heard. ID companies live and die by the Internet and forums like AVS, so if there are people out there presenting false information or bad mouthing a company for no reason (especially if they have never even heard their product) I think Craig was well within his right to defend his product. And I can tell you with Chase there are several people who seem to have a personal vendetta with the company and have never even heard the product.
This is why it is so nice to see Ricci's review since we can see the CEA results. This sub is a lot of sub for the money. My biggest problem, historically, with their products are the WAF factor....

I agree to an extent, I would say if someone is spreading lies about your product, you should step in to correct misinformation. I believe there was a guy BSing about demoing some Ascend speakers recently at their place and the guys who owns Ascend publicly called him on his BS. To me that is completely understandable.

Lol, I just though of an exception, AJ from Fla, who sells the Soundfield Monitors. Getting into heated debates is almost his entire marketing strategy! Still, he certainly has his own kind of integrity, and his speakers do look very good, so I would definitely consider them if I were in the market for bookshelf speakers in that price range.
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post #14 of 116 Old 08-23-2012, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I agree to an extent, I would say if someone is spreading lies about your product, you should step in to correct misinformation. I believe there was a guy BSing about demoing some Ascend speakers recently at their place and the guys who owns Ascend publicly called him on his BS. To me that is completely understandable.
Lol, I just though of an exception, AJ from Fla, who sells the Soundfield Monitors. Getting into heated debates is almost his entire marketing strategy! Still, he certainly has his own kind of integrity, and his speakers do look very good, so I would definitely consider them if I were in the market for bookshelf speakers in that price range.

And I also see your point, there is a line you should probably never cross as a representative of a company that does get crossed...
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post #15 of 116 Old 08-23-2012, 04:17 PM
 
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Being down over -10dB at 20Hz for a ported design (tuned around that point, no?) is not encouraging.

PB-13 Ultra, flat as a board to that same point:

FR-PB13U.jpg

There is certainly something to be said for things being properly done right out of the box.
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post #16 of 116 Old 08-23-2012, 04:30 PM
 
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Hey, these numbers are really not bad, I'm sure they are much better than any of the earlier sealed designs would have produced. I still prefer my twin LFM-1EX subs, check out the EX in 1 port mode, and add 6 dbs for twin subs co-located. For $1098 delivered my subs outgun this 18" behemoth at 16 and 20hz, and again at 50 and 63hz, and look better doing it. Still, not a bad effort, but I must agree with this:

" It would be so much easier to recommend these products if the the business owner didn't behave so erratically."
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post #17 of 116 Old 08-23-2012, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aknot5 View Post

Being down over -10dB at 20Hz for a ported design (tuned around that point, no?) is not encouraging.
PB-13 Ultra, flat as a board to that same point:
FR-PB13U.jpg
There is certainly something to be said for things being properly done right out of the box.

While there is no question that the PB13 is very well executed, you need to understand the difference between the frequency response measurements vs the maximum output numbers. Almost all subs, ported or otherwise, will have less maximum output at 20hz compared with 50 or 60hz. Those admirable PB13 flat-as-a-board response curves are at 90db, not at maximum output.

We still need to see the VS 18.1's response curves from Ricci.
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post #18 of 116 Old 08-23-2012, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

you need to understand the difference between the frequency response measurements vs the maximum output numbers. Almost all subs, ported or otherwise, will have less maximum output at 20hz compared with 50 or 60hz. Those admirable PB13 flat-as-a-board response curves are at 90db, not at maximum output.
+1
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post #19 of 116 Old 08-23-2012, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aknot5 View Post

Being down over -10dB at 20Hz for a ported design (tuned around that point, no?) is not encouraging.
PB-13 Ultra, flat as a board to that same point:
FR-PB13U.jpg
There is certainly something to be said for things being properly done right out of the box.

Flat out of the box is nice and all, but you could get two of these things for the cost of one PB13, then eq them to flat, which is what you would have to do with the PB13 as well since the room would screw up the flat FR, and now you have much more headroom in addition to a flat FR. The PB13 looks much nicer and is easier to integrate into your system, but it doesn't compete on a sheer price/performance ratio. There is certainly room for both kinds of subs.
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post #20 of 116 Old 08-23-2012, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aknot5 View Post

Being down over -10dB at 20Hz for a ported design (tuned around that point, no?) is not encouraging.
PB-13 Ultra, flat as a board to that same point:
FR-PB13U.jpg
There is certainly something to be said for things being properly done right out of the box.

Comparing apples to apples, here are Ricci's numbers for the SVS PB-Ultra. Do they not show that, at 20 Hz, the Ultra is down 6 dB from 63 Hz? Am I reading the numbers correctly?

RiccisSVSnumbers.jpg

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post #21 of 116 Old 08-23-2012, 05:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

While there is no question that the PB13 is very well executed, you need to understand the difference between the frequency response measurements vs the maximum output numbers. Almost all subs, ported or otherwise, will have less maximum output at 20hz compared with 50 or 60hz. Those admirable PB13 flat-as-a-board response curves are at 90db, not at maximum output.
We still need to see the VS 18.1's response curves from Ricci.

I understand the difference. And I agree, it will be interesting to see the rest of Ricci's work including the response curves. This is the outdoor response curve at very tame levels as posted by the manufacturer:

xZI2z.jpg

Very similar shape to those max output levels. In fact, the only difference really is mostly amp related. It doesn't appear that there is any signal shaping involved at all that could be compressed at peak levels as you allude to.

Am I reading this graph correctly?
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post #22 of 116 Old 08-23-2012, 05:20 PM
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That could validly be considered +/- 4db from 20 to 120hz. Depending on the room it's in and it's gain characteristics, that could make for a very nice response. It is not tweaked and manicured like a PB13, but neither is my passive Captivator which stole my (bass) heart. smile.gif
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post #23 of 116 Old 08-23-2012, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rijax View Post

Comparing apples to apples, here are Ricci's numbers for the SVS PB-Ultra. Do they not show that, at 20 Hz, the Ultra is down 6 dB from 63 Hz? Am I reading the numbers correctly?
RiccisSVSnumbers.jpg
Those are CEA #'s that list maximum output constrained by distortion considerations. What would be nice to see would be the compression tests for the subs - CHT as well as the SVS.

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post #24 of 116 Old 08-23-2012, 05:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

That could validly be considered +/- 4db from 20 to 120hz. Depending on the room it's in and it's gain characteristics, that could make for a very nice response. It is not tweaked and manicured like a PB13, but neither is my passive Captivator which stole my (bass) heart. smile.gif

Considering the smoothing characteristics of OmniMic, I'm not sure it can be "validly" considered anything.

There are many folks with much less than 8dB of room gain at 20Hz, and that group typically coincides with the ones with large rooms going after vented subs.

Even less of these folks have the measurement tools, EQ gear and experience you have to get this done properly (this would have to be factored into the cost of ownership as well).

All I'm saying is that there is value in having something done properly out of the box. People need to know what they're getting into, it really shouldn't be skipped over or brushed aside as a feature.

Just like your passive Captivator, we're looking at value-oriented subs that are meant for those willing to roll up their sleeves.

But unlike the powered Captivator which has signal shaping similar to the PB13U, these powered VS-18.1's offer no better a response shape, and that is a serious consideration for many to take into account. Powered Captivator response below:

2011Captivatorw_DSP1-07-2011.jpg
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post #25 of 116 Old 08-23-2012, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Those are CEA #'s that list maximum output constrained by distortion considerations. What would be nice to see would be the compression tests for the subs - CHT as well as the SVS.

AH! Thanks.

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post #26 of 116 Old 08-23-2012, 10:04 PM
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1) How much is shipping on a SUB1 + VS18.1?
2) Any pics of the sub1?

also what test is the product page referring to?
"Did we succeed? We sent the VS-18.1 to be tested by an independent lab, and the results were spectacular: From 20 to 80 Hz, a VS-18.1 will average 124 dB at one meter outdoors according the the CEA 2010 measurement standard. Even at 20 Hz, a VS-18.1 will deliver 115 dB using the CEA 2010 standard."
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post #27 of 116 Old 08-23-2012, 11:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

Hey, these numbers are really not bad, I'm sure they are much better than any of the earlier sealed designs would have produced. I still prefer my twin LFM-1EX subs, check out the EX in 1 port mode, and add 6 dbs for twin subs co-located. For $1098 delivered my subs outgun this 18" behemoth at 16 and 20hz, and again at 50 and 63hz, and look better doing it. Still, not a bad effort, but I must agree with this:
" It would be so much easier to recommend these products if the the business owner didn't behave so erratically."

How do you figure? It would take 3 of your subs at 20hz to equal this with a basic EP-4000 amp. Looks are very subjective so can't argue that. This is also assuming you would get the ideal 6 dBs of gain in a room, it does not always happen. Of course the ported version will do better than a sealed with a boost from the port. I would like to see the 18.2 tested, however Craig was almost dead on with his estimates for this sub that Josh got so why would one assume he would be that far off from his others?

AVR-Yamaha A830
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subs-12 SI 18's ported 6hz.
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post #28 of 116 Old 08-23-2012, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Aknot5 View Post

Considering the smoothing characteristics of OmniMic, I'm not sure it can be "validly" considered anything.
There are many folks with much less than 8dB of room gain at 20Hz, and that group typically coincides with the ones with large rooms going after vented subs.
Even less of these folks have the measurement tools, EQ gear and experience you have to get this done properly (this would have to be factored into the cost of ownership as well).
All I'm saying is that there is value in having something done properly out of the box. People need to know what they're getting into, it really shouldn't be skipped over or brushed aside as a feature.
Just like your passive Captivator, we're looking at value-oriented subs that are meant for those willing to roll up their sleeves.
But unlike the powered Captivator which has signal shaping similar to the PB13U, these powered VS-18.1's offer no better a response shape, and that is a serious consideration for many to take into account. Powered Captivator response below:
2011Captivatorw_DSP1-07-2011.jpg

Your points are all very valid. Whether we're talking about the passive Captivator or the VS18.1, they are more of a choice for hobbiests willing to put in a bit more effort to maximize their performance compared with subs that are more turn-key. I knew that going into my Captivator. Hopefully any buyers of passive subs know this as well. For me, tweaking out the passive Captivator was a piece of cake. I already had the pro amp and the excellent SMS-1 eq. The Cap replaced a passive sub that I had had for many years.

For some folks, it might be an effort that they want no part of.
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post #29 of 116 Old 08-24-2012, 01:46 AM
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

................... tweaking out the passive Captivator was a piece of cake...............

I agree, and am very interested in seeing how easy (or difficult) the VS is to EQ compared to my Caps.
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Your points are all very valid. Whether we're talking about the passive Captivator or the VS18.1, they are more of a choice for hobbiests willing to put in a bit more effort to maximize their performance compared with subs that are more turn-key. I knew that going into my Captivator. Hopefully any buyers of passive subs know this as well. For me, tweaking out the passive Captivator was a piece of cake. I already had the pro amp and the excellent SMS-1 eq. The Cap replaced a passive sub that I had had for many years.
For some folks, it might be an effort that they want no part of.

No doubt, and I hope most looking at purchasing a passive sub know all of this already.

It's the one's purchasing the "powered" version of this I think that may not be as aware. They are getting no more than the same passive sub with an off the shelf amp packaged along with it. Nothing about that amp was customized for this sub, and I believe they are packaging the same exact amp with their sealed units.

This is very unlike what you get with a powered Captivator, PB13U, or even FV15HP which is probably the better comparison due to more similar pricing.

I guess what I'm saying is this. There is no powered option. It should be *very* clear to folks that both are passive options, not turn-key, and both will require you to bring your own EQ.

I know we're both on the same page (I think!), I just want to point these things out for those that aren't.

What is worrying is that CHT, instead of clearly defining these and owning them as passive subs for the hobbyist to take and finish, touts these as on par with the others mentioned and even better because of the lack of the things the others have (spinning weaknesses into features as I alluded to earler):
Quote:
We employ no eq in the amp. Most other subwoofers do use some eq in the amplifier. The rolloff works quite well in many rooms, keeping the subwoofer from having the "boomy" sound a flat outdoor response can give in a real world room.

Apparently the powered Cap, PB13U, FV15HP and other subwoofers that EQ to a flat response are boomy. Who knew. rolleyes.gif

Never mind that "boomy" typically refers to a peaky response in the midbass region.
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