Infinity Primus PS410 vs BIC F12 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 14 Old 08-26-2012, 01:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi, I need to replace a JBL SUB12 which started popping like mad even on medium volume.

This is intended for a home theater in an average size living room, partnered with "small" speakers.

My budget is $200 to $300, and I think I want either an Infinity Primus PS410 or BIC F12. Any advice here? Which might be more reliable? Reliability is very important because I've had terrible luck with subwoofer reliability for some reason, from both Yamaha and now JBL.

Clarity is very important, I hate muddy bass, and I don't listen to movies at super loud volumes... but I still want some chest thumping potential. I have wood floor with no carpet over a crawlspace, FYI. I never ran my SUB12 at much more than half volume. So I'm not sure if I need a 12" again or can go with the 10" Infinity.

Thanks for any ideas....
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post #2 of 14 Old 08-30-2012, 11:12 AM
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In the under $300 range, many individuals like the BIC PL-200. Check its thread for how to get the lowest price. It is considered better than the BIC F12 by individuals who have owned both.

In the under $400 range, many individuals like the Hsu STF-2 which is a step up from the PL-200 according to individuals who previously owned the PL-200..

BICs and Hsus have been quite reliable.

Many Infinitys (not necessarily the PS410) have had amp problems similar to many of the JBL models (based on models 4+ years old or older).
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post #3 of 14 Old 08-30-2012, 11:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the feedback... a bit late, but better than never. smile.gif I ended up buying an Energy EWS-M8. Quite wonderful, but having second thoughts. Going from a boxy 12" to this tiny thng.... even though it can go low and sounds great with music... well it just doesn't sound... BIG enough with movie sound effects. It sounds like a loud, very deep, but tiny box, if you know what I mean. So tomorrow I'm getting the BIC F12 in the mail to do a comparison. Only way I'll be satisfied that I made the right choice, even though I hate returning non-defective products.

I wanted to try fancy brands like HSU or SVS... but couldn't find any place with a return policy like Amazon's so selection was limited. Also wanted to try Yamaha again to match my speakers and receiver, but my last Yamaha sub blew after less than 4 years, and there are many reliability complaints.
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post #4 of 14 Old 08-31-2012, 06:49 PM
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Jamo SUB650 (vanns) or Klipsch RW-12d (newegg) for $299 is the best sub deal this weekend for good, room shaking bass.

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post #5 of 14 Old 08-31-2012, 09:34 PM - Thread Starter
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My lord, what a piece of junk the BIC F12 is compared to the Energy EWS-M8! All it has going for it is volume, and the ability to go slighty deeper. Otherwise its a muddy, bloated, inaccurate farce.

The EWS-M8 is very tight, fast, and accurate, and its not even "broken in" yet. I bought the BIC F12 thinking I needed a bit more "presence" that a big 12" would bring to movie sound effects compared to the tiny 8" sub. Yes, the BIC F12 is as loud as I can tolerate and will rattle my house at 40% volume. But then I just decided to be a little daring and turn my EWS-M8 up to 75% volume instead of 50%. It matched the volume of the BIC F12, but WITHOUT sounding like a flabby bloated muddy mess. Both subs were tested with 120Hz crossover on a new Yamaha receiver.

The best example of this I found was the Ferry scene from War of the Worlds with the alien "horn" sounds. On the BIC F12, they sounded flat, dull, lifeless. On the EWS-M8... they sounded TERRIFYING as intended. My wife thought so too. Everything else I threw at it, the EWS-M8 just sounded way more accurate and controlled.

Music was no contest. The EWS-M8 is far more musical. The EWS-M8 also mixed in much better with my Yamaha bookshelf speakers, sonically. Now I see why the "suggested" retail price for the EWS-M8 is $800 (I got it for $300). The thing is bloody amazing for a 9" square box. The BIC F12 does win by a hair with the depth charges in U-571, but only because it can go a little lower in Hz. Every other movie sound effect or music, the Energy just wipes the floor with it, for 1/4 the size, half the weight, and only 1/3 more price.

I am never buying a bass reflex sub with an open port EVER again. Volume is all they have going for them.
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post #6 of 14 Old 09-03-2012, 03:11 AM
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Did you try the subs in the same location?

Any calibration done?
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post #7 of 14 Old 09-03-2012, 11:41 AM
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I don't get it. Why be amazed that a sub costing 50% more has better SQ?

Compare the EWS-M8 to the Klipsch RW-12D or the Jamo SUB650, or even the BIC PL-200, and I would be more impressed rolleyes.gif

(And yes, some of the difference could be poor calibration--turning up the gain on the back of the subs as described indicate that there is probably a problem there)

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post #8 of 14 Old 09-03-2012, 12:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt34 View Post

Did you try the subs in the same location?
Any calibration done?

Same location, yes. Calibration... not if you mean Audyssey. Only an attempt to match levels using my receiver's microphone YPAO function.
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post #9 of 14 Old 09-03-2012, 12:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

I don't get it. Why be amazed that a sub costing 50% more has better SQ?
Compare the EWS-M8 to the Klipsch RW-12D or the Jamo SUB650, or even the BIC PL-200, and I would be more impressed rolleyes.gif
(And yes, some of the difference could be poor calibration--turning up the gain on the back of the subs as described indicate that there is probably a problem there)

I don't think you understand. I put the subs on maximum crossover because I was using LFE, as universally accepted. The max crossover position is indicated in the Energy manual for LFE since receiver controls it, and in the BIC manual it says setting the Digital setting on the rocker switch (which is what I used and what is indicated for LFE) disables the crossover knob entirely. I only set it to max for consistency with the Energy. Now if you're talking about the differences in the volume knob, these had to be set differently in order to balance the sound power/volume coming from an 8" sub vs a 12" sub with very different power characteristics. The only "problem" would have been if I had left both subs at the exact same volume mark. The way I arrived at 75% vs 45% volume (with receiver at 0.0dB) was based on the sound and feel of certain famous movie scenes (U571 depth charges, War of the Worlds aliens, Gladiator catapults), which I am very familiar with.
The volume settings resulted in the loudness and physical feel of the sound being roughly the same. I arrived at 75% on Energy because this was the loudest bass I thought was comfortable yet impactful enough in my home theater with overall volume set such that the sats were delivering plenty of volume and sounded balanced.

It is under the above circumstances that the Energy had the far better sound characteristics that I described. I'm sorry, but muddy, bloated bass, turned up even louder, is not going to magically start sounding cleaner.

And there reason to be amazed at the difference has nothing to do with cost, it has more to do with a 8" sub in a 9" square box, vs a 12" sub in a 18" square box (roughly). I EXPECTED the bigger sub to sound better. Well, contrary to popular belief, I have realized that bigger in the subwoofer world does not automatically mean better. And while there are differences between the PL-200 and F12 many reviews have not called them significant, so I doubt my opinion would change.
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post #10 of 14 Old 09-03-2012, 01:33 PM
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The way to calibrate the subs is either (a) set the gain on the subs such that YPAO ends up with a channel level close to zero--and you need to arrive at the same channel level for each-- or (b) use a SPL meter to set them with the same SPL level when the channel level on the receiver is set to zero. Adjusting it by ear is not effective for comparing subs.

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post #11 of 14 Old 09-03-2012, 04:17 PM
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I've never heard the BIC F12 or the PL200, but it doesn't surprise me at all that you prefer the sound of your Energy sub. I've owned subs from a number of manufacturers and my Energy/Mirage systems are the best music subs I've ever owned. That said, don't be so hasty about ported vs sealed alignment. There are terrific-sounding ported subs that have the power and the glory but also the finesse.

Once again, I am sorry to take a sledgehammer to so small and fragile a nut. -- Richard Dawkins, The Greatest Show On Earth
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post #12 of 14 Old 10-09-2012, 07:52 AM
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Folks,

I would like to buy a subwoofer under $ 400, but I live in Mexico and do not have the chance to buy direct sales brands like HSU, SVS, Dayton, Rythmik etc.
I can easily find here INFINITY PRIMUS PS410, BIC AMERICA F12 or VK-12 and ENERGY ESW-M8.
What would you suggest?
I have a small/medium size room, Receiver Denon 2113, Pioneer Speakers (2012 Andrew Jones) and listen to music (30%) and movies (70%).
I would like to have obviously the lowest frequency possible (down to 25hz if it is possible) and sound quality too.
One of the members above stated that ENERGY sub would have much better sound quality comparing to BIC AMERICA. Do you guys agree?
The ENERGY does not go as down as the BIC, but sounds much better, according to him. What difference would be more relevant, considering I will play more movies than music?
And what about INFINITY PRIMUS? How do you rate it comparing to the other two?

Thanks a lot !
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post #13 of 14 Old 10-09-2012, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavius View Post

Thanks for the feedback... a bit late, but better than never. smile.gif I ended up buying an Energy EWS-M8. Quite wonderful, but having second thoughts. Going from a boxy 12" to this tiny thng.... even though it can go low and sounds great with music... well it just doesn't sound... BIG enough with movie sound effects. It sounds like a loud, very deep, but tiny box, if you know what I mean. So tomorrow I'm getting the BIC F12 in the mail to do a comparison. Only way I'll be satisfied that I made the right choice, even though I hate returning non-defective products.
I wanted to try fancy brands like HSU or SVS... but couldn't find any place with a return policy like Amazon's so selection was limited. Also wanted to try Yamaha again to match my speakers and receiver, but my last Yamaha sub blew after less than 4 years, and there are many reliability complaints.

Perhaps adding a second ESW-M8 will make you happy. A pair of Energy S10.3 subs would be great and come in at around $400 (when on sale).
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post #14 of 14 Old 04-27-2013, 11:04 AM
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I know this is an old posting, but I just got the Infinity PS-410, once it broke in I couldn’t be happier. It is wonderful for music and movies. I also had another name brand “what I call one note wonders “and what a difference the 410 made. Guess what? Bass notes are now just that, notes. LOVE this sub.
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