If 2 subs are good, and 4 even better, what do you call 9? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 117 Old 09-01-2012, 11:34 AM - Thread Starter
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I call it my living room! This is what it looks like in my house right now:

file.php?n=9185

file.php?n=9183

file.php?n=9184

About a year ago I said to myself "ya know, I want to see what it's like to evaluate subwoofers". Seemed harmless enough at the time, but I should have known better; between my inherent tenacity, and being type A to begin with, this is how it turned out. That's not all of them either; I have three others boxed up waiting for call tags so I can send them back. For those counting that's an even dozen subwoofers, and that doesn't include the ones I've already reviewed and sent back. Well, sort of; three of them in the picture I have reviewed, two of which I now own. I also own a third sub, which is among them as well, but I'm not telling which it is. Yup, it's a tough job, but someone has to do it. tongue.gif

And before anyone asks... no, my living room is not where I store them. I have a spare bedroom that I use as a staging area, but it was too small for me to line up that many subwoofers and get a picture - I just couldn't back up far enough.


So how about a little contest? Think you know your subwoofers? Can you guess what they are? See if you can at least get all the manufacturers, or if you're feeling brave go for the model too. Betcha no one gets every one of them... wink.gif


file.php?n=9186

Front Row (left to right)
1:
2:
3:
4:
5:


file.php?n=9182

Back Row (left to right)
1:
2:
3:
4:
 

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post #2 of 117 Old 09-01-2012, 11:39 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

I call it my living room! This is what it looks like in my house right now:
file.php?n=9185
file.php?n=9183
file.php?n=9184
About a year ago I said to myself "ya know, I want to see what it's like to evaluate subwoofers". Seemed harmless enough at the time, but I should have known better; between my inherent tenacity, and being type A to begin with, this is how it turned out. That's not all of them either; I have three others boxed up waiting for call tags so I can send them back. For those counting that's an even dozen subwoofers, and that doesn't include the ones I've already reviewed and sent back. Well, sort of; three of them in the picture I have reviewed, two of which I now own. I also own a third sub, which is among them as well, but I'm not telling which it is. Yup, it's a tough job, but someone has to do it. tongue.gif
And before anyone asks... no, my living room is not where I store them. I have a spare bedroom that I use as a staging area, but it was too small for me to line up that many subwoofers and get a picture - I just couldn't back up far enough.
So how about a little contest? Think you know your subwoofers? Can you guess what they are? See if you can at least get all the manufacturers, or if you're feeling brave go for the model too. Betcha no one gets every one of them... wink.gif
file.php?n=9186
Front Row (left to right)
1:
2:
3:
4:
5:
file.php?n=9182
Back Row (left to right)
1:
2:
3:
4:
 

Unless these are for test purpose, I call 9 subs OVERKILL!!
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post #3 of 117 Old 09-01-2012, 11:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Unless these are for test purpose, I call 9 subs OVERKILL!!

All the ones I don't own are here to be reviewed. And I've never hooked them up at the same time, although I have been tempted to give it a try...

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post #4 of 117 Old 09-01-2012, 12:55 PM
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For once I agree with the Auditor. Even 4 is an over kill unless it is a room as big as a commercial theater. Even if you are curious to hear 9 subs, isn't it such a hassle to haul those monsters around? I cant even handle one 60lb sub. So I am not looking at anything other than the SB12 (35 lbs)
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post #5 of 117 Old 09-01-2012, 01:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

Even if you are curious to hear 9 subs, isn't it such a hassle to haul those monsters around? I cant even handle one 60lb sub. So I am not looking at anything other than the SB12 (35 lbs)

I can't review 'em unless I have 'em, so for me it's not such a big deal. wink.gif

Of the 9 subwoofers pictured, 6 are 70lbs or more; 3 of those 6 are in the 80's and 1 of them is over 90lbs. I have no problem carrying them, so I'm good. Sometimes when they're in the shipping boxes they so big it's hard to get my arms around them. Plus they weigh even more then, so it's like a double bonus.

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post #6 of 117 Old 09-01-2012, 01:45 PM
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I see a Power Sound XV15 the last on in row 2

3 - JTR 228's LCR (game room)
2 - DIY Sound Group V-8 Coaxials (game room)
4 - PSA Triax's (game room)
2 - SVS SB13+'s (living room)
1 - SVS SB12-NSD (bedroom)
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post #7 of 117 Old 09-01-2012, 01:59 PM
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Hey-I thought you were only allowed to own budget subs rolleyes.gifbiggrin.gif

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post #8 of 117 Old 09-01-2012, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by holt7153 View Post

Hey-I thought you were only allowed to own budget subs rolleyes.gifbiggrin.gif

At one point that was indeed true, but I've branched out since then. I even updated my moniker to say "the sub dude"! tongue.gif

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post #9 of 117 Old 09-01-2012, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

At one point that was indeed true, but I've branched out since then. I even updated my moniker to say "the sub dude"! tongue.gif

Just busting your chops smile.gif. Out of curiosity are there any particular brands you haven't heard that you want to? I've heard some good ones, but there's a handful I'd still really like to hear.

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post #10 of 117 Old 09-01-2012, 03:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by holt7153 View Post

Just busting your chops smile.gif. Out of curiosity are there any particular brands you haven't heard that you want to? I've heard some good ones, but there's a handful I'd still really like to hear.

Oh yeah, there are definitely some units I want to hear...

The Captivator S is probably the holy grail for me. I'm an acoustic suspension junkie, and that pretty much sits at the top of the heap. I've never even approached Jeff about getting a unit to review though because I'm pretty sure he'd tell me to take a hike. The Submersive HP would be on my short list too, but I never contacted Mark for the same reason. The HSU ULS-15 is very intriguing to me, as is the Rythmik F12G and F15HP. The as-yet-unreleased SVS SB13-Ultra sounds really interesting as well. The Paradigm SUB 2 would be a lot of fun, but I'd even love to review the SUB 15, Monitor Sub 12 or Seismic 110. I'm sure there are others, but those are the ones that came to mind immediately.

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post #11 of 117 Old 09-01-2012, 04:00 PM
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Oh yeah, there are definitely some units I want to hear...
The Captivator S is probably the holy grail for me. I'm an acoustic suspension junkie, and that pretty much sits at the top of the heap. I've never even approached Jeff about getting a unit to review though because I'm pretty sure he'd tell me to take a hike. The Submersive HP would be on my short list too, but I never contacted Mark for the same reason. The HSU ULS-15 is very intriguing to me, as is the Rythmik F12G and F15HP. The as-yet-unreleased SVS SB13-Ultra sounds really interesting as well. The Paradigm SUB 2 would be a lot of fun, but I'd even love to review the SUB 15, Monitor Sub 12 or Seismic 110. I'm sure there are others, but those are the ones that came to mind immediately.

I'd like to hear the Cap as well. I've heard the Submersive (amazing) and the HSU, and own the Rythmik. I'd like to hear a Funky Waves as well.

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post #12 of 117 Old 09-01-2012, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

Even 4 is an over kill unless it is a room as big as a commercial theater.
Really? With all the research that's been done documenting the smoother frequency response and better seat-to-seat consistency that 4 subs can yield in small rooms, you still think that multiple subs are only useful for a commercial theatre sized room?

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post #13 of 117 Old 09-01-2012, 05:35 PM
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bah, driving a hummer or suburban in the city is an overkill, ordering a double Big Mac with large sized fries is an overkill, using a lawn tractor to mow 150 square feet of grass is an overkill.... life is full of overkills. When funds are available, I'll commit an overkill and have 4 subs.

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post #14 of 117 Old 09-01-2012, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

For once I agree with the Auditor. Even 4 is an over kill unless it is a room as big as a commercial theater.

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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Really? With all the research that's been done documenting the that 4 subs can yield in small rooms, you still think that multiple subs are only useful for a commercial theatre sized room?

Well, I effectively agree with *both* of you. The huge advantage of multiple subs is absolutely unquestioned. However, the number of subs needed to get to the point of "smoother frequency response and better seat-to-seat consistency" may not be set at 4, (or more), subs.

In my own room, the sweet spot for subwoofers is 3... not 1... not 2... not 4... not more... but 3. Of course, those are Seaton Sound Submersive HP subwoofers, each of which consist of 2 sealed, dual-opposed 15" drivers, driven by 2.4 Kilowatts of power and DSP corrected for flat response to 15 Hz, (Prgm 2.) That is a total of six, 15" drivers driven by 7,200 watts of power. eek.gifeek.gifeek.gif Nonetheless, even at lower than max output capabilities, I have documented with measurements the benefit of multiple subs in my room here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/759877/seaton-sound-submersive1/4500#post_19446901

Three Submersive HP's give me all the output I could ever desire... all the DEEP extension I could ever ask for... and smooth, non-boomy frequency response across all my seats. Adding more subs in my room would definitely be "overkill." 3 is the "Goldilock's" number of subs in my room. I can see some larger rooms requiring more subs, but bottom line for me, IMO, 2>1... 3>2.. and beyond that, it depends on the size and dimensions of the space, and the capabilities of the subwoofers being used + the EQ capabilites of the Room Correction being employed.

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Originally Posted by jproy13 View Post

bah, driving a hummer or suburban in the city is an overkill, ordering a double Big Mac with large sized fries is an overkill, using a lawn tractor to mow 150 square feet of grass is an overkill.... life is full of overkills. When funds are available, I'll commit an overkill and have 4 subs.
cheers

I hope you're saying that in jest. Do you know that overkill is just another word for gluttony.
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post #16 of 117 Old 09-01-2012, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Really? With all the research that's been done documenting the smoother frequency response and better seat-to-seat consistency that 4 subs can yield in small rooms, you still think that multiple subs are only useful for a commercial theatre sized room?

How many people have space to put 4 subs in their living room, unless they build a dedicated HT and plan all the wiring. How many people have "man caves" in their basement where they can put 4 subs. There will always be some people, may be 1 or 2%, who take anything to a limit. It doesn't mean that everyone should follow suit. I am sure I am going to hear some preaching that nothing is an over kill. What is "smooth" is subjective and is dependent on the room. I could use 4 subs in my room and still find the bass boomy. Then what? Add 2 more and keep going? Is there a room correction software that can correct the subs individually? if I understand it correctly, they only correct the combined response. So lets not get too carried away. There are other frequencies in a movie or music :-)
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post #17 of 117 Old 09-01-2012, 11:38 PM
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I'd be much more impressed if you had them all hooked up at the same time biggrin.gif
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post #18 of 117 Old 09-02-2012, 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Unless these are for test purpose, I call 9 subs OVERKILL!!

Who cares? If people want 50 subs in their room, and have the means to do so (funds, space, a very forgiving spouse), go for it. Why the need for internet validation?

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post #19 of 117 Old 09-02-2012, 03:59 AM
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A very forgiving spouse is the number 1 requirement wink.gif
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post #20 of 117 Old 09-02-2012, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Snowmanick View Post

Who cares? If people want 50 subs in their room, and have the means to do so (funds, space, a very forgiving spouse), go for it. Why the need for internet validation?
Jim Wilson, have fun with the reviews and subs.

Sure if someone has the money and man power to haul 80-90lb subs, no one is stopping them. Please dont make multiple subs a NORM. If an opinion is put out in public, especially something so out of the ordinary (I am being polite here smile.gif), there will be mixed reactions.
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post #21 of 117 Old 09-02-2012, 05:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post


In my own room, the sweet spot for subwoofers is 3... not 1... not 2... not 4... not more... but 3. Of course, those are Seaton Sound Submersive HP subwoofers, each of which consist of 2 sealed, dual-opposed 15" drivers

Well you may have 3 based on the number of "boxes" but that is not really 3. Try three 12" sealed subs and tell me if you get the same response/output. So your count of 3 is a bit misleading.
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post #22 of 117 Old 09-02-2012, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

Sure if someone has the money and man power to haul 80-90lb subs, no one is stopping them. Please dont make multiple subs a NORM. If an opinion is put out in public, especially something so out of the ordinary (I am being polite here smile.gif), there will be mixed reactions.
I don't know what point you are trying to make. It's absolutely clear that additional subs, properly placed and integrated, improve the response across more seats. That is a proven and indisputable fact. The works of Toole/Welti and Geddes, among others have shown this to be true. Having said that, it is certainly possible to use one sub to good effect, at least at one seat. You and many others may not want or need more subs to be satisfied, but that doesn't change the fact that multiple subs is the better way to go.
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Well you may have 3 based on the number of "boxes" but that is not really 3.
Sure it is. It's three sources of bass energy. The dual drivers in each box "couple" and the wavefronts advance as if they were a single point source... 3 subs, not 6.
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Try three 12" sealed subs and tell me if you get the same response/output. So your count of 3 is a bit misleading.
I progressed from a single sub to duals and finally to 3. Each addition was a substantial improvement.
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Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

How many people have space to put 4 subs in their living room, unless they build a dedicated HT and plan all the wiring. How many people have "man caves" in their basement where they can put 4 subs.There will always be some people, may be 1 or 2%, who take anything to a limit. It doesn't mean that everyone should follow suit. I am sure I am going to hear some preaching that nothing is an over kill.
That is a totally myopic point of view, but hey, you're welcome to it. Just don't try to make it the "norm."
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Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

What is "smooth" is subjective and is dependent on the room. I could use 4 subs in my room and still find the bass boomy. Then what?
Add 2 more and keep going?
Then you need to work on your setup skills.
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Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

Is there a room correction software that can correct the subs individually? if I understand it correctly, they only correct the combined response. So lets not get too carried away.
You obviously don't understand this. The combined response is the response you *hear*, so it is the only response you want to correct. If you correct individual responses, and then combine them, you will end up with a different, but uncorrected response.

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There are other frequencies in a movie or music :-)
And those other frequencies are enhanced by properly balanced and smooth bass response. It's like contrast in a video display. The deeper the blacks, the better everything else looks.

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post #23 of 117 Old 09-02-2012, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

The combined response is the response you *hear*, so it is the only response you want to correct. If you correct individual responses, and then combine them, you will end up with a different, but uncorrected response.

Point noted.
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post #24 of 117 Old 09-02-2012, 08:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Guys, please take your "multiple subs are good/bad" argument someplace else. That's not the reason I started this thread.

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post #25 of 117 Old 09-02-2012, 08:25 AM - Thread Starter
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I'd be much more impressed if you had them all hooked up at the same time biggrin.gif

I contemplated that while I had them all in the one spot, but I didn't have enough cables and Y adapters. In a 13x17 room it would have been one heckuva setup to watch WOTW on, that's for sure. tongue.gif

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post #26 of 117 Old 09-02-2012, 08:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Jim Wilson, have fun with the reviews and subs.

Thanks man, I have every intention of it. biggrin.gif

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post #27 of 117 Old 09-02-2012, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

Guys, please take your "multiple subs are good/bad" argument someplace else. That's not the reason I started this thread.
When you start a thread titled: "If 2 subs are good, and 4 even better, what do you call 9?" wouldn't you *expect* some discussion about the benefits of multiple subs?

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post #28 of 117 Old 09-02-2012, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

I contemplated that while I had them all in the one spot, but I didn't have enough cables and Y adapters. In a 13x17 room it would have been one heckuva setup to watch WOTW on, that's for sure. tongue.gif

You could put them in a small circle and sit in the middle. Or better yet, put the most powerful in the middle of the circle and sit on top. ROFL

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post #29 of 117 Old 09-02-2012, 09:10 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowmanick View Post

Who cares? If people want 50 subs in their room, and have the means to do so (funds, space, a very forgiving spouse), go for it. Why the need for internet validation?
Jim Wilson, have fun with the reviews and subs.

I care because its a wrong thing to do. This supposed is to be the Audio Video Science Forum, where members take a scientific approach to audio and video, which should be above and beyond displays of greed, avarice, waste etc. I don't like to see overkill encouraged in this hobby. Gluttony is not good in this hobby nor is it good for general society as a whole, that is why you see so many morbidly obese people, overweight young people with type 2 diabetes do to over consumption (excess/gluttony) of bad food served at places like McDonald's. We should never encourage overkill (gluttony) in this hobby because it sends the wrong message. We should never encourage overkill sub use, overkill amps, overkill cable wires, overkill speakers, etc., under the pretense that doing so will add anything useful to the A/V experience.
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post #30 of 117 Old 09-02-2012, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

Guys, please take your "multiple subs are good/bad" argument someplace else. That's not the reason I started this thread.

Perhaps you should have made your intentions clear in your first post. It was not clear if it was just a "photo op" or you were serious about using 9 subs in a room and hence the reaction.

The answer to your question "if-2-subs-are-good-and-4-even-better-what-do-you-call-9" is "over kill/ridiculous". Like I said before, if you put an opinion or idea or whatever out in public, you are going to get mixed reactions. No need to be rude or condescending. I am not aware of any rule at AVS which says the OP dictates what can be posted in the thread. If there is such a rule, I stand corrected.
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