Newbie question: Denon 1712 paired with what subwoofer? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 29 Old 09-08-2012, 01:12 PM - Thread Starter
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I just received my Denon 1712 refurbed from AC4L today. I haven't opened the box but I'm excited to pair it with a decent budget sub later on. I can wait for the right sub at a reasonable price given my low budget. To give an idea of where I'm at in terms of price range, I am looking at the BIC F12 or the PA PSW505. What else is comparable to these models for $200 +/-?

My 5.1 audio system bedroom setup:
10'1" L x 9'11" D x 8' H. One corner opens up to a space (for the door to open/close) that measures 2'4" L x 2'11" D x 8' H.
AVR: Denon 1712
Fronts: Pioneer SP-BS41-LR
Center: Pioneer SP-C21
Rear: Pioneer SP-BS21-LR
Subwoofer: SVS PC12-NSD
TV: Samsung UN46EH6070...
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post #2 of 29 Old 09-08-2012, 03:26 PM
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You've already hit on two of the best values. The Energy S10.3 is a pretty good deal, too, at $230 at Newegg (sometimes it has been on sale closer to $200). Also in this price range, lot of good testimonials on here for the Premier Acoustics PA-120.

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post #3 of 29 Old 09-08-2012, 07:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks!

My 5.1 audio system bedroom setup:
10'1" L x 9'11" D x 8' H. One corner opens up to a space (for the door to open/close) that measures 2'4" L x 2'11" D x 8' H.
AVR: Denon 1712
Fronts: Pioneer SP-BS41-LR
Center: Pioneer SP-C21
Rear: Pioneer SP-BS21-LR
Subwoofer: SVS PC12-NSD
TV: Samsung UN46EH6070...
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post #4 of 29 Old 09-08-2012, 07:45 PM
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+1 to the Energy S10.3 for ~$200.
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post #5 of 29 Old 09-09-2012, 12:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

+1 to the Energy S10.3 for ~$200.
1. how does it compare to BIC 12 since it's more expensive atm?
2. I'm leaning toward BIC 12 but that thing is relatively huge IMO. Can someone confirm it's width and depth in inches please? I may have to be creative placing it in a practical position.

My 5.1 audio system bedroom setup:
10'1" L x 9'11" D x 8' H. One corner opens up to a space (for the door to open/close) that measures 2'4" L x 2'11" D x 8' H.
AVR: Denon 1712
Fronts: Pioneer SP-BS41-LR
Center: Pioneer SP-C21
Rear: Pioneer SP-BS21-LR
Subwoofer: SVS PC12-NSD
TV: Samsung UN46EH6070...
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post #6 of 29 Old 09-09-2012, 03:08 PM
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The S10.3 has a flatter frequency response than the F12 and is known for having a bit better SQ. The F!2 likely has more max SPL, but it will be skewed more toward midbass output.

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post #7 of 29 Old 09-09-2012, 04:17 PM - Thread Starter
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oh ok I want lower deep bass. So SPL is more for like what? pounding my brians out midbass vs sound quality that is more for sounding better/deeper in terms of lower bass? i would love to see a video that shows an audio differnce between something with higher SPL vs another with higher SQ (deeper bass)?

My 5.1 audio system bedroom setup:
10'1" L x 9'11" D x 8' H. One corner opens up to a space (for the door to open/close) that measures 2'4" L x 2'11" D x 8' H.
AVR: Denon 1712
Fronts: Pioneer SP-BS41-LR
Center: Pioneer SP-C21
Rear: Pioneer SP-BS21-LR
Subwoofer: SVS PC12-NSD
TV: Samsung UN46EH6070...
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post #8 of 29 Old 09-09-2012, 04:23 PM
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Low-frequency extension - how deep it goes
SPL (sound pressure level) - how loud it plays

Good extension (20Hz or lower) and the ability to hit high SPLs are desirable features in a sub...but neither feature, particularly if unqualified, is an indicator of sound quality.
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post #9 of 29 Old 09-16-2012, 11:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Which one of those subs mentioned above is suitable match you would buy for the following speakers (along with the Denon 1712):

Front: Pioneer SP-BS41-LR
Center: Pioneer SP-C21
Rear: Pioneer SP-BS21-LR
?

My 5.1 audio system bedroom setup:
10'1" L x 9'11" D x 8' H. One corner opens up to a space (for the door to open/close) that measures 2'4" L x 2'11" D x 8' H.
AVR: Denon 1712
Fronts: Pioneer SP-BS41-LR
Center: Pioneer SP-C21
Rear: Pioneer SP-BS21-LR
Subwoofer: SVS PC12-NSD
TV: Samsung UN46EH6070...
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post #10 of 29 Old 09-16-2012, 12:17 PM
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Buy the sub that fits your room and your listening tastes and habits, not the speakers. The only time someone has to really worry about subs matching with speakers is when the speaker setup is small satellites that don't extend down very low. Then one has to make certain that the sub extends high enough. You don't have that problem smile.gif

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post #11 of 29 Old 09-16-2012, 12:18 PM
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What he said (well). smile.gif
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post #12 of 29 Old 09-16-2012, 12:45 PM
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The qualities that make for a good sub are, for the most part, independent of the speakers you're using. Since your Pio's are good down to 80 Hz and the subs listed above all go up to 80 Hz, any of them should work fine with your speakers using a standard 80 Hz crossover. Go through your receiver's Audyssey setup routine after you get the new sub installed. My post-Audyssey setup preferences are to enable "Audyssey Flat" mode, ensure that all speakers are set to "small", crossovers are all at 80 Hz, and Dynamic Volume/Dynamic EQ are set to "Off". I also increase the subwoofer gain several dB over what Audyssey chooses. Play some music with good low frequency output after you've tweaked to ensure that you're happy with the settings.
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post #13 of 29 Old 09-16-2012, 04:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henrich3 View Post

My post-Audyssey setup preferences are to enable "Audyssey Flat" mode, ensure that all speakers are set to "small", crossovers are all at 80 Hz, and Dynamic Volume/Dynamic EQ are set to "Off". I also increase the subwoofer gain several dB over what Audyssey chooses.
I have no clue what all those mean. Why set them like that? I suppose i should ask this question in the Denon 1712 owner's thread?

My 5.1 audio system bedroom setup:
10'1" L x 9'11" D x 8' H. One corner opens up to a space (for the door to open/close) that measures 2'4" L x 2'11" D x 8' H.
AVR: Denon 1712
Fronts: Pioneer SP-BS41-LR
Center: Pioneer SP-C21
Rear: Pioneer SP-BS21-LR
Subwoofer: SVS PC12-NSD
TV: Samsung UN46EH6070...
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post #14 of 29 Old 09-16-2012, 05:46 PM
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See AVS member batpig's guides on Denon and Audyseey.

http://batpigworld.com/wp/?page_id=55
http://batpigworld.com/wp/?page_id=37

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post #15 of 29 Old 09-16-2012, 09:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth3si View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by henrich3 View Post

My post-Audyssey setup preferences are to enable "Audyssey Flat" mode, ensure that all speakers are set to "small", crossovers are all at 80 Hz, and Dynamic Volume/Dynamic EQ are set to "Off". I also increase the subwoofer gain several dB over what Audyssey chooses.
I have no clue what all those mean. Why set them like that? I suppose i should ask this question in the Denon 1712 owner's thread?

The accuracy of your sound system is dependent on how good your speakers are and the acoustics in your room. Audyssey measures irregularities in the frequency response in your room and attempts to correct the problems. If a particular frequency is emphasized, Audyssey will lower it. If a frequency is too soft, Audyssey will give it a boost. The standard Audyssey mode rolls off high frequencies. Denon's "Audyssey Flat" mode eliminates that roll off. To my ears that sounds better. If the treble sounds too bright using "Audyssey Flat" however, set it back to the standard "Audyssey" mode.

Setting the speakers to small and the crossovers to 80 Hz tells the receiver to route frequencies under 80 Hz to the sub instead of the speakers. Dynamic Volume does volume compression. That can help elevate soft sounds if you have problems hearing over high ambient noise, but unless you are fighting that problem reducing the dynamic range of your audio should be avoided. Dynamic EQ solves the problem of your hearing being less sensitive to low frequencies at low volume. I like the boost it gives low frequencies as the volume is lowered, but the Audyssey folks also decided to boost the volume in the surround channels as the volume is lowered. Shifting the sound stage from the front channels to the surrounds is something I personally dislike, especially since one of my surround speakers is close to my listening position.

My suggestions are for a few settings that have worked well for me. Experimenting with the settings after the initial setup may provide better results however. Denon's "Quick Select" buttons can make experimentation easier. For example, if you want to hear the difference between "Dynamic EQ" on & off, just save the settings to different Quick Select buttons then do some A/B testing with music or other good source material. Some features can alter the volume which will influence your perception of relative goodness. If you hear a volume difference when you're doing an A/B test, equalize the volumes and re-save the Quick Select. That will make it easier to determine which of the various Audyssey modes & features you find appealing. Note that features like Dynamic EQ & Dynamic Volume have a greater effect at lower volume, so testing those should be done at low volume.
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post #16 of 29 Old 09-16-2012, 10:44 PM - Thread Starter
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dynamic volume is also for night time viewing/hearing when listening at low volumes i wanna hear all the sounds?

as for dyanmic EQ , fyi my surround speakers are around 6 ft away from my listening position while the center and front speakers are around 10 feet awayt from my listening position. so I shoudl turn try to turn it off to see if its' better?\


and I''ll be sure to experiement. with the quick select testings.

My 5.1 audio system bedroom setup:
10'1" L x 9'11" D x 8' H. One corner opens up to a space (for the door to open/close) that measures 2'4" L x 2'11" D x 8' H.
AVR: Denon 1712
Fronts: Pioneer SP-BS41-LR
Center: Pioneer SP-C21
Rear: Pioneer SP-BS21-LR
Subwoofer: SVS PC12-NSD
TV: Samsung UN46EH6070...
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post #17 of 29 Old 09-17-2012, 06:08 AM
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Re: Dynamic Volume - If the volume is too low to hear everything just turn up the volume a little. If you enable volume compression for low volume listening you may forget to disable it for higher volume listening & you'll have reduced dynamics when you wanted to hear the full range.

Re: Dynamic EQ - Yes, try it out to see if you like it.

I believe you can make dramatic improvements in sound quality if you first run the Audyssey setup routine & then make a few changes to your receiver settings as described earlier. Don't assume that the receiver's post-Audyssey settings are ideal. Play around to see what you prefer.
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post #18 of 29 Old 09-17-2012, 10:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok I don't have to do this until I finally setup the speakers do i? intially if I just wanted to test the functinality of hte spekaers ijust plug one speaker at a time and hook up a bluray player to see if sound comes out of each speaker w/o messing with any of the settings right??

My 5.1 audio system bedroom setup:
10'1" L x 9'11" D x 8' H. One corner opens up to a space (for the door to open/close) that measures 2'4" L x 2'11" D x 8' H.
AVR: Denon 1712
Fronts: Pioneer SP-BS41-LR
Center: Pioneer SP-C21
Rear: Pioneer SP-BS21-LR
Subwoofer: SVS PC12-NSD
TV: Samsung UN46EH6070...
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post #19 of 29 Old 09-18-2012, 04:40 AM
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1. Plug in your speakers and sub.
2. Run the AVR's built in test-tone (which will sequentially cycle through all the channels, including the sub) to make sure your connections are good.
3. Position your speakers and sub. (If you're not sure where to place your sub, do a sub crawl.)
4. Run Audyssey for 1-3 positions, then check the levels. If the sub level is too low (or too high), turn the gain on the sub itself down (or up).
5. Repeat step 4 until the levels look right, then run Audyssey for all positions.
6. Tweak if/as required (set all speakers to "small", adjust crossover, etc.) or desired (boost the sub level by a couple of dB, try out the Dynamic EQ/Volume features, etc.)
7. Enjoy! biggrin.gif
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post #20 of 29 Old 09-18-2012, 11:46 AM - Thread Starter
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tanks nice to know...umm i don't have a sub atm... how do i just test to see if the speakers work? I need to do the test-tone? and auddysey position setup as well? For now i was thinking of just positioning them on the ground. not ready to properly place them just yet. if they work i keep if not i'll rma them.

My 5.1 audio system bedroom setup:
10'1" L x 9'11" D x 8' H. One corner opens up to a space (for the door to open/close) that measures 2'4" L x 2'11" D x 8' H.
AVR: Denon 1712
Fronts: Pioneer SP-BS41-LR
Center: Pioneer SP-C21
Rear: Pioneer SP-BS21-LR
Subwoofer: SVS PC12-NSD
TV: Samsung UN46EH6070...
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post #21 of 29 Old 09-18-2012, 11:57 AM
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Go into your AVR's speaker set-up menu, set the speakers to "large" and the sub to "none" (or "off" or whatever the option is). Then hook up your speakers and run the test-tones just to make sure everything's connected properly and working properly.

If you're just putting your speakers on the ground, don't bother running Audyssey. Once you position your speakers with the intention of using them for movies or music - even if they're not in their final position, and even if you don't have your sub yet - you should consider running Audyssey at that point.
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post #22 of 29 Old 09-20-2012, 10:58 AM - Thread Starter
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do i do this one speaker at a time or hook em all at once?

My 5.1 audio system bedroom setup:
10'1" L x 9'11" D x 8' H. One corner opens up to a space (for the door to open/close) that measures 2'4" L x 2'11" D x 8' H.
AVR: Denon 1712
Fronts: Pioneer SP-BS41-LR
Center: Pioneer SP-C21
Rear: Pioneer SP-BS21-LR
Subwoofer: SVS PC12-NSD
TV: Samsung UN46EH6070...
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post #23 of 29 Old 09-20-2012, 01:49 PM
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Hook them all up and run the test tone. The "Channel Level" section on page 62 of the owner's manual tells you the sequence in which the tone cycles through the channels. If the tone plays out of whatever speaker it's supposed to be playing out of at a given point in the cycle, you're good; otherwise, you have some re-wiring to do.
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post #24 of 29 Old 09-21-2012, 10:36 AM - Thread Starter
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wow so this tone test thingy doesn't need a separate av media player hooked up to hear the sounds? just straight receiver and speakers?

My 5.1 audio system bedroom setup:
10'1" L x 9'11" D x 8' H. One corner opens up to a space (for the door to open/close) that measures 2'4" L x 2'11" D x 8' H.
AVR: Denon 1712
Fronts: Pioneer SP-BS41-LR
Center: Pioneer SP-C21
Rear: Pioneer SP-BS21-LR
Subwoofer: SVS PC12-NSD
TV: Samsung UN46EH6070...
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post #25 of 29 Old 09-21-2012, 11:08 AM
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Yup, that's all. It's a convenient, "quick-and-dirty" way:
- to confirm that you've got your speakers hooked up correctly; and
- to level-match your speakers so you get a consistent level all the way around.
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post #26 of 29 Old 09-26-2012, 11:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

The S10.3 has a flatter frequency response than the F12 and is known for having a bit better SQ. The F!2 likely has more max SPL, but it will be skewed more toward midbass output.
which one is more suitable twoards carpet floor?

My 5.1 audio system bedroom setup:
10'1" L x 9'11" D x 8' H. One corner opens up to a space (for the door to open/close) that measures 2'4" L x 2'11" D x 8' H.
AVR: Denon 1712
Fronts: Pioneer SP-BS41-LR
Center: Pioneer SP-C21
Rear: Pioneer SP-BS21-LR
Subwoofer: SVS PC12-NSD
TV: Samsung UN46EH6070...
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post #27 of 29 Old 09-26-2012, 11:53 AM
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Unless you have thick, deep shag carpeting from the 1970s, it won't matter.

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post #28 of 29 Old 09-26-2012, 12:06 PM
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An easy solution to "carpet concerns" - even if the carpet isn't all that deep - is to cut a piece of wood to the Width x Depth dimensions of the S10.3, place it on the carpet and place the sub on top of it. Voilà! It's as good as being on [a] wood [floor]! biggrin.gif
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post #29 of 29 Old 10-09-2012, 01:15 PM - Thread Starter
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How does the Klipsch Reference RW-12d compare to the Energy S10.3 performance wise? I'm wondering if it is worth the extra $100 over the $200 Energy.

Here's the application if anyone forgot:

AVR: Denon 1712
Front: Pioneer SP-BS41-LR
Center: Pioneer SP-C21
Rear: Pioneer SP-BS21-LR

75% use for HT, 15% music, 10% games.

The room is 10' x 10'.

I am also wondering if I can position the SW facing towards the right side 90 degrees relative to where I'm sitting/viewing the TV screen. Would that noticeably affect the way how it sounds?

My 5.1 audio system bedroom setup:
10'1" L x 9'11" D x 8' H. One corner opens up to a space (for the door to open/close) that measures 2'4" L x 2'11" D x 8' H.
AVR: Denon 1712
Fronts: Pioneer SP-BS41-LR
Center: Pioneer SP-C21
Rear: Pioneer SP-BS21-LR
Subwoofer: SVS PC12-NSD
TV: Samsung UN46EH6070...
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