Rythmik FV15HP vs Passive Captivator/EP4000 for low extension - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 54 Old 09-08-2012, 06:22 PM - Thread Starter
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I currently have 2 FTW-21 in 7cf cabs w/2 ep4000s flanking the front + 2 Outlaw LFM1-EXs nearfield right behind me. This is all in the concrete basement 2000cf room.

 

Output is not an issue. biggrin.gif

 

But, my Outlaws do exhibit audible port noise on a very select set of movie scenes...it's literally probably .01% of the time. Maybe even less...BUT, it does annoy me when it happens. I've tried sealed nearfield (have placed one of my FTW-21s right behind the LP), and it just doesn't shake my couch like ported subs do. I'm convinced in my room, that ported does MUCH better job of exciting my HT seating, than sealed. That being said, I don't want to turn this thread to turn into a 'Which shakes more, sealed or ported'. So please, let's just focus on my question. smile.gif

 

So, I've been considering swapping my Outlaws with the FV15HP or potentially a passive Cap. I'm heavily leaning toward the FV15HP because of the 14hz tune. My outlaws in max extension mode, get me to around 12-13hz in my room. That's from a 18hz tune, I believe. A 14hz tune may get me to 10hz or less potentially. It's also cheaper solution to the Cap. I believe the Cap has a 20hz tune. I know it has a capable driver, but because of the design and slotted vent (no port plug) the tune can't be changed. However, it can probably dig deep with EQ. I'm just concerned based on it's design, it won't dig as deep or play as loud (without port noise) down low compare to the FV15HP.

 

My priority is extension, as the lower the extension, the more variation of 'shake' I get at my LP. I've tested my Outlaws in Max extension vs Max output, and the difference in shake and pressurization is HUGE. Max Extension is FAR better from a tactile feeling standpoint and overall ULF effect, but does exhibit audible port noise occasionally...

 

Thoughts?



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post #2 of 54 Old 09-08-2012, 06:41 PM
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While this may not really answer your question, I believe the 2012 version of the Cap is port tuned to 17.5hz, not 20hz. Considering the output capabilities of your FTW21's, I'd probably go with the Cap, to try to keep output as consistent as possible, which may also translate into less audible port noise.

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post #3 of 54 Old 09-08-2012, 07:36 PM
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The FV15HP is likely to extend a little deeper than the Cap which is indeed tuned to 17.5 hz, but the FV15HP is somewhat underported with just one port open. That puts you back in the situation with potential port noise. The Cap will have way more output overall, but you can't really add much extension below it's tuning point using eq. That doesn't work well with ported subs.

Something seems wrong if you need to turn to ported subs to get more output in the lower teens to add to your sealed 21s. If the 21s are not cutting it in the deep bass area, ported subs are not the answer. You need more sealed subs, more amps, and a lot of eq. The rolloff slope of the ported subs will do nothing but cause phase problems when used with the sealed subs. They are not a good mix.

What sort of frequency response do you get using only the sealed 21s?
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post #4 of 54 Old 09-08-2012, 07:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's my latest response for all subs. Obviously, the outlaws don't anything below 10.

 

Flat to 5hz FTW21

 

Trust me. Extension/output is not something the FTW-21 are lacking. It's the tactile sensations that ported provides over sealed (in my room) is why I'm moving this direction.



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post #5 of 54 Old 09-08-2012, 08:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowmanick View Post

While this may not really answer your question, I believe the 2012 version of the Cap is port tuned to 17.5hz, not 20hz. Considering the output capabilities of your FTW21's, I'd probably go with the Cap, to try to keep output as consistent as possible, which may also translate into less audible port noise.

The FTW-21 carry the load, output, and SQ. I'm using the ported subs for tactile sensation. I actually have transducers installed in the non-LPs. However, comparing the transducers to the natural ported shake is like night and day....and the reason for this thread. smile.gif



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post #6 of 54 Old 09-08-2012, 08:15 PM
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Do you reach anywhere near your output limits when you just use the 21s? If not, simply use the eq to boost the frequencies that give you the "shake" you want. If there is something about the subs being located nearfield that adds to your sensation, then add a couple of decent sealed subs nearfield. You wouldn't need anything as large as your 21s. Perhaps a couple of nearfield Power Sound Audio XS15s or a couple of Chase sealed 18s with some eq would do the trick. Ported subs in the mix make no sense to me.
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post #7 of 54 Old 09-08-2012, 08:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Do you reach anywhere near your output limits when you just use the 21s? If not, simply use the eq to boost the frequencies that give you the "shake" you want. If there is something about the subs being located nearfield that adds to your sensation, then add a couple of decent sealed subs nearfield. You wouldn't need anything as large as your 21s. Perhaps a couple of nearfield Power Sound Audio XS15s or a couple of Chase sealed 18s with some eq would do the trick. Ported subs in the mix make no sense to me.

Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way in my room.

 

I can definitely understand your logic, as I would come to the same conclusion regarding sealed and ported and FRs. The problem is, it doesn't work that way in my room. I have placed the FTW-21 so it literally fires at my back, and the Outlaws shake more...actually by a huge margin. I really don't want to get into the ported vs sealed 'tactile sensation' thing here. I do have a relevant thread for that: Measuring the 'Tactile Feeling' of your sub system. Please post there to continue that discussion, as I still have questions as to why it feels that way in my room.

 

Please assume that ported shakes more in my room. That being the case, it sounds like you're recommending the Rythmik based on extension?



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post #8 of 54 Old 09-08-2012, 08:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Do you reach anywhere near your output limits when you just use the 21s? 

See video below.

 

This video was recorded with Omnimic...there are times where 5hz (fast forward to 1:22) is the strongest frequency with the FTW-21s at over 120db (peak)! biggrin.gif

 



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post #9 of 54 Old 09-08-2012, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way in my room.

I can definitely understand your logic, as I would come to the same conclusion regarding sealed and ported and FRs. The problem is, it doesn't work that way in my room. I have placed the FTW-21 so it literally fires at my back, and the Outlaws shake more...actually by a huge margin. I really don't want to get into the ported vs sealed 'tactile sensation' thing here. I do have a relevant thread for that: Measuring the 'Tactile Feeling' of your sub system
. Please post there to continue that discussion, as I still have questions as to why it feels that way in my room.

Please assume that ported shakes more in my room. That being the case, it sounds like you're recommending the Rythmik based on extension?

Not really. I think you may run into the same problem with port noise as you do with the Outlaws.
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post #10 of 54 Old 09-08-2012, 08:56 PM
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Honestly, I think there is some form of harmoninc distortion that the Outlaws are producing that somehow is giving you the feeling that you crave. The frequencies of the harmonics produced are just the right frequencies to shake your chair, your room, or whatever. Your 21s don't produce that same distortion and therefore don't give you the same shake.

If that sensation is something you feel that you must have, then double up on the Outlaws and you should be able to keep the shake and eliminate the port noise.
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post #11 of 54 Old 09-08-2012, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Honestly, I think there is some form of harmoninc distortion that the Outlaws are producing that somehow is giving you the feeling that you crave. The frequencies of the harmonics produced are just the right frequencies to shake your chair, your room, or whatever. Your 21s don't produce that same distortion and therefore don't give you the same shake.
If that sensation is something you feel that you must have, then double up on the Outlaws and you should be able to keep the shake and eliminate the port noise.


+1 smile.gif I think that is the right answer.
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post #12 of 54 Old 09-09-2012, 12:21 AM
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I have passive 2012 caps on which I plugged a port, this tunes them at 11-12hz and works great it my room.
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post #13 of 54 Old 09-09-2012, 04:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimVG View Post

I have passive 2012 caps on which I plugged a port, this tunes them at 11-12hz and works great it my room.

That's interesting. Any port noise with that? What do you plug the port with?

I have the one and only rare Cap with 15hz native tuning (both ports open) and I'm curious how it might sound with one port plugged, not that I would actually keep it that way.
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post #14 of 54 Old 09-09-2012, 05:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Honestly, I think there is some form of harmoninc distortion that the Outlaws are producing that somehow is giving you the feeling that you crave. The frequencies of the harmonics produced are just the right frequencies to shake your chair, your room, or whatever. Your 21s don't produce that same distortion and therefore don't give you the same shake.
If that sensation is something you feel that you must have, then double up on the Outlaws and you should be able to keep the shake and eliminate the port noise.

I thought about the possibility of harmonic distortion as well...but I don't believe that's the cause. The shake happens even at low volumes (-25db MV) where harmonic distortion would not come into play.

 

There is something other sound property that causes the tactile feeling...don't know what it is. A simple example is placing your subs 'farfield' or 'nearfield'. You could potentially have the same FR in either scenario, but nearfield placement will have the stronger tactile sensation. I've tested this with my system pre and post getting my nearfield subs. Before placing the nearfield subs, I had some shake. After adding the subs nearfield, HUGE tactile difference. However, both scenarios had very similar frequency responses.



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post #15 of 54 Old 09-09-2012, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

That's interesting. Any port noise with that? What do you plug the port with?
I have the one and only rare Cap with 15hz native tuning (both ports open) and I'm curious how it might sound with one port plugged, not that I would actually keep it that way.

No audible port noise in normal material. With sine sweeps and tone generators I can cause some at loud levels with infrasonic material. I bought some high density foam from a DIY store and cut it to size, it works great.
I compared the 17,5hz tuning (with house curve; going up 6db from 40 to 15hz) to the lower tuning (flat) and preferred the lower tuning, it's amazing how much information is below 20hz. I now have a similar house curve set in the lower tuning mode, and it's even better now (because I don't usually listen at reference).
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post #16 of 54 Old 09-09-2012, 07:07 AM
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This is any easy choice in my opinion...


The cap pair I have are the most tactile subs I've ever heard.


In the realm of output the cap and rhythmic aren't even in the same league.


You need your choice to keep pace with your 21" pair... When spl is in the equation the rythmik is out in my opinion. High excursion 18" versus medium excursion servo 15".


That said mojo is right and mixing sealed and ported is typically a poor idea. You may lose frequencies below the port tune on the sealed subs as the ported sub basically reverses phase below port tune.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"

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post #17 of 54 Old 09-09-2012, 07:11 AM
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Tim. I thought there wasn't supposed to be an alternate tune on the 17.5hz tuned caps?

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"

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post #18 of 54 Old 09-09-2012, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Tim. I thought there wasn't supposed to be an alternate tune on the 17.5hz tuned caps?

I don't think it is something that Jeff suggested. I think it's most likely something that Tim experimented with on his own.
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post #19 of 54 Old 09-09-2012, 08:09 AM
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Dom, I agree with Archaea about how tactile the Caps are - in fact that's the first word I would use to describe them. You can get some port noise though when using a port plug but it's at very high SPL's that you may not need to hit since they will be so close to your LP.


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post #20 of 54 Old 09-09-2012, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

This is any easy choice in my opinion...
The cap pair I have are the most tactile subs I've ever heard.
In the realm of output the cap and rhythmic aren't even in the same league.
You need your choice to keep pace with your 21" pair... When spl is in the equation the rythmik is out in my opinion. High excursion 18" versus medium excursion servo 15"

Believe it or not, the Outlaws do a very good job of keeping up. I run them 3db less than the FTWs and they are literally 2ft from my LP.

 

Max output is not the concern. It is low end (<18hz) that I'm concerned with. I know the Cap is VERY capable from an output perspective, but my concern is what does it do below tuning (17.5hz). I know what the FV15HP is capable of below 18hz...it's actually quite impressive that a 15in driver in that size cabinet can dig that low with authority! It sounds like (so far), EQing the Cap below tuning isn't a good idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimVG View Post


No audible port noise in normal material. With sine sweeps and tone generators I can cause some at loud levels with infrasonic material. I bought some high density foam from a DIY store and cut it to size, it works great.
 
Very cool. Have you ever graphed your FR before and after? I'd like to see what that looks like! What do existing Cap owners feel about this solution? 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimVG View Post


 it's amazing how much information is below 20hz. I now have a similar house curve set in the lower tuning mode, and it's even better now (because I don't usually listen at reference).
 
+1. In my room, the difference when the outlaws were set at the 20hz tune and the 16hz tune was tremendous! When I listened to it in the 20hz tune, it sounded very good, but there was so much tactile response missing compared to the 16hz tune. In the 20hz tune, the port noise was gone!...but so was the extra low tactile sensation.
 
I would much rather have port noise every now and then, as compared to losing the <20hz tactile sensation! My concern with the Cap is that I'd be missing some of the low end info...like I said, I'd sacrifice port noise for extra low end. That's where I'm thinking the FV15HP will shine, specifically for my application. Additionally, I'm hoping that the low 14hz tuning will add additional tactile feeling that the Outlaws did not have.
 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

That said mojo is right and mixing sealed and ported is typically a poor idea. You may lose frequencies below the port tune on the sealed subs as the ported sub basically reverses phase below port tune.

 

IMO, mixing sealed and ported is a poor idea if you don't have the right equipment to get them to play nicely. As you can see from my FR, I have gotten them to play nicely. smile.gif  I like to think that I have the best of both worlds now. 



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post #21 of 54 Old 09-09-2012, 10:22 AM
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I only saved the flat measurement in the 11-12hz tune



Keep in mind I have no room gain in the low bass at listening position, so this is pretty impressive in my room smile.gif
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post #22 of 54 Old 09-09-2012, 10:51 AM
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Dominguez, the FV15 will get you the low end, but are you sure it will do it without the port noise? Here is what Josh Ricci's review says of one port mode:
Quote:
Unfortunately the single 3" port can't cope with the output of the 15" driver and compresses a lot while also contributing a lot of wind noise at the highest output levels.
If you are after zero port noise for big SPL at sub 20 hz, I would just go for a sure thing like the JTR. It is expensive, but what you really want isn't cheap. If you like the Outlaw LFMs for the most part, you might also look at the Hsu VTF3s, they are mostly the same except the VTF3s have a larger and longer port which is more difficult to drive to port noise (but not impossible).
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post #23 of 54 Old 09-09-2012, 02:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimVG View Post

I only saved the flat measurement in the 11-12hz tune

Keep in mind I have no room gain in the low bass at listening position, so this is pretty impressive in my room smile.gif

That is impressive. Very nice. Do you have pics of the plug and how it fits?

 

Also, I'm a bit confused by the different versions of prior Caps. Was there a 15hz tune, and then a 20hz tune, and the latest is a 17.5hz tune?

 

TimVG, which model cap do you have? Also, did you come up with the plug idea on your own, or did you get some guidance from JTR?



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post #24 of 54 Old 09-09-2012, 02:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Dominguez, the FV15 will get you the low end, but are you sure it will do it without the port noise? Here is what Josh Ricci's review says of one port mode:
If you are after zero port noise for big SPL at sub 20 hz, I would just go for a sure thing like the JTR. It is expensive, but what you really want isn't cheap. If you like the Outlaw LFMs for the most part, you might also look at the Hsu VTF3s, they are mostly the same except the VTF3s have a larger and longer port which is more difficult to drive to port noise (but not impossible).

Good reference...

 

You're right, I don't know if the port noise will stop. Comparing the FV15HP to the Outlaws, the FV looks to equal twice the output of the outlaw and extends to 12.5hz with authority. I considered the SVS PB13 Ultra, but the FV15HP is 9db stronger at 12.5hz. Pretty impressive.

 

Like I said, I can stop the port noise with the Outlaws by running in max output mode...but don't want to sacrifice the tactile feeling the extra extension gets me. Your idea about the VTFs is a good suggestion, I'd just be concerned it wouldn't be enough of an upgrade.

 

The other + in favor of the FV15HP is the amp. It will have the subsonic filter built in to control the really low frequencies as opposed to an EP4000 and the Cap...



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post #25 of 54 Old 09-09-2012, 03:20 PM
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If I understand your setup correctly, you have a pair of outlaws located right behind you in near-field placement. Well if you look at Josh Ricci's testing, In one port mode the Outlaw is roughly 6 db behind the FV15HP through out the ranges. Two co-located subs will get you an additional 6 db of output, so you should already be at the Rythmik FV15HP's performance level, speaking strictly from the perspective of headroom. Unless you were to move up to a pair of Rythmik FV15s, I would move on up to the Captivator. You might also consider a pair of SVS PC12 Plus subs, they ought to have substantially more output at 16 hz with less port noise than your Outlaw subs.
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post #26 of 54 Old 09-09-2012, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

You're right, I don't know if the port noise will stop. Comparing the FV15HP to the Outlaws, the FV looks to equal twice the output of the outlaw and extends to 12.5hz with authority. I considered the SVS PB13 Ultra, but the FV15HP is 9db stronger at 12.5hz. Pretty impressive.

Btw, I don't think you really want to push any of these subs hard below their tuning point. I wouldn't get any of them with the hopes of any kind of significant output at 12.5 hz at all. For that, you either want a ported DIY tuned to your desire, or a bunch of sealed subs.
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post #27 of 54 Old 09-09-2012, 05:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

If I understand your setup correctly, you have a pair of outlaws located right behind you in near-field placement. Well if you look at Josh Ricci's testing, In one port mode the Outlaw is roughly 6 db behind the FV15HP through out the ranges. Two co-located subs will get you an additional 6 db of output, so you should already be at the Rythmik FV15HP's performance level, speaking strictly from the perspective of headroom. Unless you were to move up to a pair of Rythmik FV15s, I would move on up to the Captivator. You might also consider a pair of SVS PC12 Plus subs, they ought to have substantially more output at 16 hz with less port noise than your Outlaw subs.

That's right, but the difference with the Rythmik is the clean 12.5 hz output. My assumption is that because it has the clean output down low, it will exhibit less port noise than my outlaws at the same frequency.

 

 

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Btw, I don't think you really want to push any of these subs hard below their tuning point. I wouldn't get any of them with the hopes of any kind of significant output at 12.5 hz at all. For that, you either want a ported DIY tuned to your desire, or a bunch of sealed subs.
 
With my Outlaws and my room gain, I extend to 12-13hz in Max extension mode. I 'believe' the port tune is either 18 or 20hz. If I extrapolate from this with the FV15HP, that should put me in the 10hz area or lower. That's intriguing to me...
 
I hear you though...I'm flat to 5 hz with my current setup. The FV15HP or Cap is really there for the nearfield 'ported' tactile sensation that my FTW21's don't provide nearfield (in my room).
 
It's not intuitive (at least in my mind), but the nearfield ported subs in my room really provide an awesome tactile experience. The lower the tune has considerable effect to the tactile feel, and tests have show that the Rythmik can get there. Now, I'm wondering if the Cap get dig deep as well. I know it will be the ported sub that has the least amount of port noise, but not sure if I can get it to dig deeper than it's spec'd out to be; thus the purpose of this thread.smile.gif


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post #28 of 54 Old 09-09-2012, 06:55 PM
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no typical properly designed ported sub is going to dig much below tune, because below port tune the driver basically acts like it's in free air (which isn't a good thing - massive distortion and low SPL).

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"

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post #29 of 54 Old 09-10-2012, 06:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by TimVG View Post

I only saved the flat measurement in the 11-12hz tune

Keep in mind I have no room gain in the low bass at listening position, so this is pretty impressive in my room smile.gif

 

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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

That is impressive. Very nice. Do you have pics of the plug and how it fits?

 

Also, I'm a bit confused by the different versions of prior Caps. Was there a 15hz tune, and then a 20hz tune, and the latest is a 17.5hz tune?

 

TimVG, which model cap do you have? Also, did you come up with the plug idea on your own, or did you get some guidance from JTR?

Hey TimVG, I'm sure many are interested in what you've done. Care to elaborate?



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post #30 of 54 Old 09-12-2012, 02:42 AM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Hey TimVG, I'm sure many are interested in what you've done. Care to elaborate?

I missed this one, sorry!

Well I was going to order an S2 at first, but I figured plugging ports works well for so many other subs, why not this model. It's a matter of physics afterall. And it does work, even though JTR advises against it. So now I have the choice between a pair of subs tuned at 17,5hz - 11hz or completely sealed, which I have tried also and works just great (just not in my room, but the concept remains the same)

I'm not sure how much output you can get with a normal captivator in it's default tuning mode, but you lose about 6db in that range when you use the alternate tune. You do gain a lot of output below 17,5hz though.
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