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post #1 of 27 Old 09-13-2012, 05:16 PM - Thread Starter
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New to the forum, although I have been reading the stuff on here for a while (Nice work with the "Peggy" thing for Lava - very funny) Anyhow, I have been out of the loop for a number of years (*back in the day we didn't have subs) I received a Denon 2112ci and 5 Klipsch CDT-5650-C in ceiling speakers from the wife which are not yet installed. I need to get myself a sub to complete the set up. I/we like music, we will watch a movie here and there but the wife is a real sports fan so mostly it is sports or HD concerts (i.e. Pink Floyd, Rush, etc on Palladia channel via Cable)
Room - space is a rectangle (living room open to kitchen) From TV to back windows (short side of rectangle) 15 feet. From living room wall through to the end of kitchen wall is about 40 feet. Ceilings are 9 feet. *Slight oddity is a large cut out opening just above the entertainment center that looks into the entry and dine room - entry and dine room has 30 foot ceilings.

Been looking and here is where I am at the moment:

1) Rythmik Audio - a little pricy but hear they make a great product. Waiting on Rythmik to reply to my e-mail for appropriate product/model and price

2) Aperion Audio Bravus IIa 12D Powered Subwoofer

3) Lava - have to consider that you guys have a 40+ page thread going on that, what a read

4) SVS SB12-NSD - via on-line chat the guys at SVS recommended this model

Local installer recommended Episode but when I tried to contact it was a terrible experience. So, far the guys as Aperion have been awesome – straight shooters too. Again, I have never owned a sub – in my days in college we had Carver Amps, Bostom Acoustics speakers and Nakamichi cassette decks, subs didn’t exist as the base from the towers was it and I lived overseas after university so small radio in an apartment or iPod. No up-to-date tech knowledge here

THANKS GUYS, in advance for your info. If I have missed a brand/model I am sure you will point it out.
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post #2 of 27 Old 09-13-2012, 06:18 PM
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I'd just dump the Lava and Aperion from the list now. You only getting one? Add Epik Empire, HSU VTF15H but not knowing your budget hard to recommend. With all the connecting space you're going to have a hard time filling it with a single sub in any case...and ceiling speakers? WAF? Welcome in any case.

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post #3 of 27 Old 09-13-2012, 07:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCal03 View Post

4) SVS SB12-NSD

+1

In it's class, it has the best spectrograph and waterfall chart of the bunch and that means a bunch to me.
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post #4 of 27 Old 09-13-2012, 08:58 PM
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Tactfully suggest returning in-ceiling speakers for towers, bookshelfs, or at least in-walls. I hate to be critical, especially since this is outside of the thread's scope, but in-ceiling speakers are just about the worst kind you can get. As far as those subwoofers you listed, they are all underpowered for a space of that size. I guess you are needing to to keep them small for aesthetic reasons. You might try the Klipsch RW12d, it isn't much bigger than the Lava sub but it ought to have a bit more output. If you can accommodate a larger sub, I would look at the aforementioned Hsu VTF15h or Epik Empire. If you can get a Rythmik FV15HP that would be even better. But pairing a Rythmik, Hsu, or Epik sub with an in-ceiling speaker system is like putting a fine red wine sauce on a McDonald's hamburger patty, it's just too awful to think about. By the way, I don't think in-ceiling speakers are bad for the surround channels, although they wouldn't be my first choice for that role either, but for a front stage, they are dreadful.
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post #5 of 27 Old 09-13-2012, 11:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, yes towers… Well, I took the wife to look at KEF, PSB, etc and that was a no go (not veto, she isn’t that type, but the face and body language – you know…) So, since the house was wired for in-ceiling I took what didn’t get me that face/body language. Hey, been living in the house for 8 years without tunes!! Only an iPod – I finally caved in and accepted defeat. She is like Ray Lewis in a stare down!

Or, (Lovinthehd) I could just junk the entire house and move to Woodside (regular at purisima creek myself so that would be even better don’t you think?)

Waiting on a reply from Rythmik so I will take a look at the others you guys recommended such as the Hsu VTF15h or Epik Empire.

Thanks again, I am sure you guys and others will have thoughts - they are apreciated.
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post #6 of 27 Old 09-14-2012, 12:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, follow up question(s)
The Rythmik is quite expensive (looks very good but $$) and quite large and the HSU is also pretty large and costly. I had hopes of staying under $1000. Wasn’t hard and fast but sort of felt like the thing to do keeping the other components in mind. The Epik Empire subwoofer now it seems to fall into about the same mold in terms of size but price is a bit better. The dual horizontally opposed design is interesting too.

So, has anyone used the Epik Legend?? From looking at it, I think there might not be too much of a drop of from the Epik Empire Subwoofer. The Legend seems to just be 12” instead of 15” and as such a bit smaller footprint with pretty substantial price savings. Thoughts on the Epik Legend with my set up? Seems like either the SVS SB12-NSD or Epik Legend… ? (price and size are factors)

Thanks again for the help/input.
[no problem being critical “ShadyJ” You are right, in ceiling wasn’t what I wanted but its what I have (for the moment)]
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post #7 of 27 Old 09-14-2012, 12:58 PM
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The Legend has had a spate of amplifier problems which the Empire seems to have avoided, from what I have read. I would go through the Epik thread here to see if that situation has been resolved before pulling the trigger on a Legend. The SB12 would be a whisper in your room, it doesn't have close to sufficient output for a space of that size. You might consider the Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Plus or Hsu VTF2 mk4, they are larger than a SB12 but smaller then the Empire, and would probably be somewhere around 650 after shipping. They will have more output than the SB12, and more deep bass output than the Legend, but the Legend would likely have more upper bass output. If you can somehow mange to swing an Empire, I would recommend you do so.
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post #8 of 27 Old 09-14-2012, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCal03 View Post

Thanks, yes towers… Well, I took the wife to look at KEF, PSB, etc and that was a no go (not veto, she isn’t that type, but the face and body language – you know…) So, since the house was wired for in-ceiling I took what didn’t get me that face/body language. Hey, been living in the house for 8 years without tunes!! Only an iPod – I finally caved in and accepted defeat. She is like Ray Lewis in a stare down!

Or, (Lovinthehd) I could just junk the entire house and move to Woodside (regular at purisima creek myself so that would be even better don’t you think?)

Waiting on a reply from Rythmik so I will take a look at the others you guys recommended such as the Hsu VTF15h or Epik Empire.

Thanks again, I am sure you guys and others will have thoughts - they are apreciated.

Mountain biker? I usually ride at Skeggs and Russian Ridge, am in between, near Alice's just south off Skyline (actually in Sky Londa rather than Woodside, but everyone uses that for mail). I drive by Purisima every day on the way to work, tho, just haven't stopped in there for a long time! You could also come over and get a taste of an Empire if you'd like...but it's not a Woodside mansion by any means! I don't know if you should bring the wife, tho, it's a man cave that would not do you any good in WAF terms.

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post #9 of 27 Old 09-14-2012, 01:28 PM
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I'd stay away from the Legend. Empire is alright (I still own one). Go for a listen.
You can consider this company as well. Former SVS guys.
http://www.powersoundaudio.com/
XV 15 or XS 15 would be fine. Add to cart to calculate shipping. Should be under $800.

You'll rarely hear anyone say, "I wish I'd gotten less Sub."

$ubwoofer$ and premium mango tree cultivar$

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post #10 of 27 Old 09-14-2012, 02:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Mountain biker? I usually ride at Skeggs and Russian Ridge, am in between, near Alice's just south off Skyline (actually in Sky Londa rather than Woodside, but everyone uses that for mail). I drive by Purisima every day on the way to work, tho, just haven't stopped in there for a long time! You could also come over and get a taste of an Empire if you'd like...but it's not a Woodside mansion by any means! I don't know if you should bring the wife, tho, it's a man cave that would not do you any good in WAF terms.

Yes, Mtn Bike and Trail run (I go to Skeggs, Purisima, Santa Cruz trails off of Hwy 1 and Monte Bello Open) Had apts in Burlingame, Palo Alto, and Sunnyvale back in the day but married and now in East Bay so it is a drive but my old friends live closer to you so its worth it.

Got to find good sound in decent package (it was tough researching alone and so I found this forum - lots of info out there)
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post #11 of 27 Old 09-14-2012, 03:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks guys, I am getting your info and then looking them up: So, in looking at the Epik "Empire" (so some people are worried about quality issues while others are not? Also size, 22 H x 18 W x 24 D

The others in the highly recommended range:
  • Rythmik FV15HP comes in above $1000 and at 18"(W) x 24" (H )x 26"(D)
  • HSU Research VTF-15H comes in at $1000 and 25" H x 18" W x 26" D

    Dude! essentially another coffee table...I know due to cut outs, etc I have a bit of space to fill but a piece of furniture is going to be an almost impossilble sale. You guys are 'in the know' and I know I am not but I would think there is the right sub for the job in an around or under 15x15x15 size? for less than $1000

    Thoughts... I might be able to swing
    Rythmik F12 since it with luck could be in the house for under $1000 and size of 15-3/4"(W) x 15-3/4" (H )x 18-1/2"(D) is not petit but maybe livable. That said, for a few bucks over $1000 I could move up to a pair of SVS SB12-NSD subwoofers (you know, buy one now and then get another one later if I need more?)

    Crazy but do I have to have such a large cabinet?
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post #12 of 27 Old 09-14-2012, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCal03 View Post

Thanks guys, I am getting your info and then looking them up: So, in looking at the Epik "Empire" (so some people are worried about quality issues while others are not? Also size, 22 H x 18 W x 24 D

The others in the highly recommended range:
  • Rythmik FV15HP comes in above $1000 and at 18"(W) x 24" (H )x 26"(D)
  • HSU Research VTF-15H comes in at $1000 and 25" H x 18" W x 26" D

    Dude! essentially another coffee table...I know due to cut outs, etc I have a bit of space to fill but a piece of furniture is going to be an almost impossilble sale. You guys are 'in the know' and I know I am not but I would think there is the right sub for the job in an around or under 15x15x15 size? for less than $1000

    Thoughts... I might be able to swing
    Rythmik F12 since it with luck could be in the house for under $1000 and size of 15-3/4"(W) x 15-3/4" (H )x 18-1/2"(D) is not petit but maybe livable. That said, for a few bucks over $1000 I could move up to a pair of SVS SB12-NSD subwoofers (you know, buy one now and then get another one later if I need more?)

    Crazy but do I have to have such a large cabinet?

Cabinet size does play a role...check out a Danley DTS10 at 59.5 x 44 x 16 inches or in this gallery http://www.funkaudio.ca/Custom_Gallery.html look at the XXX Big Body sub (keep in mind that's an 18" driver). Sometimes you have to scare the wife with extremes so something fairly normal looks much tamer in comparison (well, according so some that have to worry about such).

You can get two smaller cubes to help, but for a single sub you just won't get the same performance in the smaller footprint vs larger...

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post #13 of 27 Old 09-14-2012, 04:09 PM
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15" cube for less then $1k is bound to disappoint in a room of that size. Since in-ceiling speakers have already subtracted so much, there isn't any point in spending a lot on a sub though. One thing you might want to look at is the Simply Sound Rumba 12, it is a 16" cube but I think it could have more raw output capability then the comparable SVS or Emotiva subs, and you will want as much output as you can afford.
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post #14 of 27 Old 09-14-2012, 04:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

15" cube for less then $1k is bound to disappoint in a room of that size. Since in-ceiling speakers have already subtracted so much, there isn't any point in spending a lot on a sub though. One thing you might want to look at is the Simply Sound Rumba 12, it is a 16" cube but I think it could have more raw output capability then the comparable SVS or Emotiva subs, and you will want as much output as you can afford.


Thanks, it looks pretty good and price is right (doesn't show shipping costs and doesn't allow for calc?) Never heard of them, anyone else know this sub?

*Just a side note - The SVS team will sell a second sub for $500 if two are needed so that is good (plus shipping is included) Would guess you could just "Y" connect in the back of the Denon 2112 and run two of any of the subs if needed.
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post #15 of 27 Old 09-14-2012, 07:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Cabinet size does play a role...check out a Danley DTS10 at 59.5 x 44 x 16 inches or in this gallery http://www.funkaudio.ca/Custom_Gallery.html look at the XXX Big Body sub (keep in mind that's an 18" driver). Sometimes you have to scare the wife with extremes so something fairly normal looks much tamer in comparison (well, according so some that have to worry about such).
You can get two smaller cubes to help, but for a single sub you just won't get the same performance in the smaller footprint vs larger...

I'll tell the wife you said so....
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post #16 of 27 Old 09-14-2012, 07:10 PM - Thread Starter
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So, the site keeps telling me this so I can't reply to you guys?

"Because you're new here, your post is being held for moderation. Once approved by a moderator, it will be published on the site. Thanks for your patience."

Sorry, don't know why it is doing that?

Q: want to know more on the Simply Sound’s Rumba 12 vs. the SVS SB12-NSD
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post #17 of 27 Old 09-14-2012, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCal03 View Post

.... I had hopes of staying under $1000. ...

Take a look at the first 7 posts in this thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1313176/shootout-epik-empire-vs-hsu-vtf-15h-vs-cht-cs18-1-vs-rythmik-fv15-vs-ed-a7s-450
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post #18 of 27 Old 09-14-2012, 07:24 PM
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I think the Rumba could have more output potential because of it's more heavy-duty driver (compare the weights), plus it won't be operating under the severe DSP limiters that the SVS subs have. The SVS subs have a beautifully flat FR, but at the cost of a lot of headroom. You need all the headroom you can get.
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post #19 of 27 Old 09-14-2012, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCal03 View Post

So, the site keeps telling me this so I can't reply to you guys?
"Because you're new here, your post is being held for moderation. Once approved by a moderator, it will be published on the site. Thanks for your patience."
Sorry, don't know why it is doing that?
Q: want to know more on the Simply Sound’s Rumba 12 vs. the SVS SB12-NSD

It's holding your post till we as moderators have to review each post by all new members, which includes your posts. So, please allow us to review the post before reposting the same information...it will show up in the thread.

Thanks

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post #20 of 27 Old 09-14-2012, 07:48 PM
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I don't think you ever addressed your preferred listening levels. Most of the concerns of output are because most assume fairly loud (over 90db) or reference (115db in the sub channel) listening. If you are not one to crank it up, then you can get by with something much smaller and inexpensive. Even some of the budget subs can put out over 80db with no room gain @ 20hz, and since home theater is not an issue here you really have no need for anything below that. If you went with that option you could get a pair of budget subs which might end up doing you more good for music and sports.
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post #21 of 27 Old 09-14-2012, 08:06 PM
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It's kinda big and may not be the best end table, but this is in your neck of the woods http://www.avsforum.com/t/1426707/hsu-vtf-15h

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post #22 of 27 Old 09-14-2012, 11:37 PM - Thread Starter
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"Tom": Thanks Tom, that Shootout video stuff was Awesome! Appreciate you fwd to me. Wow, but the size/footprint on each of the tested models is going to be a killer. I understand, just saying…

"Audio": well, preferred listening levels...? Must say, back in the day with my roommate we had two Carver Amps to sets of nice towers and some other kick !@# stuff and we would crank but, after letting a few decades go by living overseas in a tiny apt and then returning to USA (I have honestly only had an iPod as my main source of tunes for over 8 years. I am going to guess that my old self will occasionally want to crank it but likely it will be a semi loud max and normally a general listening level kind of thing.

"Lovin": Thanks I think I am going to loose the WAF on that but I did send a note over since it is local, might try to get a peek and see if I can get a thumbs up.
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post #23 of 27 Old 09-17-2012, 04:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Sealed single vs. Active/Passive mix subwoofers vs Ported.

Examples i.e.
  • SB12-NSD (12” Single Active) or Simply Sound Audio Rumba 12
  • Aperion Audio - Bravus IIa 12D (12” Single Active, Dual Passive)
  • Lava LSP12 or XTZ 99 W10.16

Thoughts?
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post #24 of 27 Old 09-20-2012, 05:15 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCal03 View Post

You guys are 'in the know' and I know I am not but I would think there is the right sub for the job in an around or under 15x15x15 size? for less than $1000

---snip---

I could move up to a pair of SVS SB12-NSD subwoofers (you know, buy one now and then get another one later if I need more?)

^^^

(Winner!)

Always expect to buy a pair of subwoofers. Anything less is criminal acoustic behavior.

Disclosure: we're currently budgeting for a pair of PB12-NSD's to replace a pair of Klipsch, SW12 II's that after some nineteen years, are working just fine. The rub, they don't dig down as deep as today's soundtracks expect subwoofers to dig down to. I want a pair of Martin Logan, Depth i but a pair is just more than I can rationalized for our retired budget. The point, my research has shown that economically speaking, the PB12-NSD's is a good price/quality match and there's no reason to believe that a pair of SB12-NSD's would not live up to your expectations, all the while meeting your size requirements.

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post #25 of 27 Old 09-20-2012, 05:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCal03 View Post

Sealed single vs. Active/Passive mix subwoofers vs Ported.

I know you have WAF concerns, but your room is very, very large. You need to battle it out a little on this issue. In your budget range, a ported sub is pretty much a must to get any sort of volume. The HSU VTF-2 MK4 and the Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Plus are comparably priced to the other subs you are considering and will have more output.

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post #26 of 27 Old 09-20-2012, 05:52 AM
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... for a few bucks over $1000 I could move up to a pair of SVS SB12-NSD subwoofers ...
Given your size, WAF and budget constraints, I'd go with dual SB12-NSDs. smile.gif
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post #27 of 27 Old 09-20-2012, 06:50 AM
 
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

You need to battle it out a little on this issue.

After a while, every guy learns, there's somethings they just have to stand up for and not being factious, subwoofers and/or the home theater is one of those reasons to say; hey, what about me, what I want and what my needs are? I know, sounds whiny/is whiny but the the alternative, "you will do what I say" doesn't float these days. The good news, if married, we all have to deal with the WAF. The bad news, any guy who's married and wants a quality home theater system in their living room, has to deal with the WAF.

The alternative, mope around the house until she relents.

"Siiiiiiigh."

"Don't worry honey, as long as you get the living room you want, I'll just do without the subwoofers that'll make me happy."

"Siiiiiiigh."


......................................tongue.gif

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