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post #91 of 278 Old 09-27-2012, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

I know where I am. This is the Avengers Bass and General Discussion. The lack of Avengers bass is quite the subject in here. rolleyes.gif
Also, if the waterfall thread is just a "little ULF 5 star nonsense" thread.... does that mean you won't be in there filling it with your nonsense?
The physical size one system has no bearing on it's 'imbalance'. It's funny you mention that because most people around here with small, incapable subs have their levels inbalanced in the wrong direction. wink.gif

Humm, much to comment on here but I'll take on the
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does that mean you won't be in there filling it with your nonsense?
part. So, I asked a nonsensical question earlier regarding how these waterfall graphs are being generated. Seems that some are using direct from the disk and others are using in room mic readings. These graphs are posted interchangeably with apparently each person not knowing what specif methodology the other is using. That little discrepancy in methodology is rather unscientific, don't you think?

That said, it is good to see you scientists are finally getting on the same page and to answer your question, yes, I will keep my nonsensical posts out of your "real objective science" Biggest Baddest Bass Movies Thread .... smile.gif

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post #92 of 278 Old 09-27-2012, 11:06 AM
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You're always welcome to come by and visit. Just try and keep it objective. biggrin.gif

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post #93 of 278 Old 09-27-2012, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

You're always welcome to come by and visit. Just try and keep it objective. biggrin.gif

Thanks for the invite but no thanks.
As Woody Allen said to Christopher Walken in Annie Hall ...
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post #94 of 278 Old 09-27-2012, 11:41 AM
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Lol!

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post #95 of 278 Old 09-27-2012, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Humm, much to comment on here but I'll take on the part. So, I asked a nonsensical question earlier regarding how these waterfall graphs are being generated. Seems that some are using direct from the disk and others are using in room mic readings. These graphs are posted interchangeably with apparently each person not knowing what specif methodology the other is using. That little discrepancy in methodology is rather unscientific, don't you think?
That said, it is good to see you scientists are finally getting on the same page and to answer your question, yes, I will keep my nonsensical posts out of your "real objective science" Biggest Baddest Bass Movies Thread .... smile.gif

Ah, when all else fails, attack the science.

Hold on... Bwahahahahaha!

Ok, got that out of the way.

I'm the only person who uses a mic at the listening position. The reasons and the methodology have been discussed and vetted to the nth degree, but thanks for the cursory glance drive by shooting anyway.

A comparison of the crash scene in HTTYD, direct digital feed vs mic'd at the LP:

Picture18-1.png

See, the mic'd version got rid of that 60 Hz hum that doesn't belong, assuming you have any idea how to properly set up SpecLab or read the SpecLab graphs. If you see something lacking in the mic'd version, feel free to discuss it scientifically. rolleyes.gif

Really, there are 3 people with a bug up their snouts who've decided to attempt to discredit all objective data and those who post it, for some unknown reason.

You appear to be the least knowledgeable and the most condescending. Not a great combination. Scott, MKT, maxmercy, myself and quite a few others, including the Euro Boys, one of whom resurrected the Master List thread, have posted measurements, models, SL graphs, THD test results, max output data, connection scheme diagrams and hardware solutions, sound card response graphs, excellent commentary on how that translates at your seat using various and many systems and much, much more.

There is zero doubt that that is why this forum does so well. Your attacks on everyone who isn't you?... not so much.

Oh Noes, that pesky ULF stuff!!! Unintended artifacts strike again!!!

Unknown.png
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post #96 of 278 Old 09-27-2012, 12:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I do. Is that suddenly a crime?
Folks in this, the largest subwoofer sub-forum in the world, buy their systems based nearly 100% on the recommendations of others. Many of them refer to the efforts of folks like Ed Mullen, Ilkka Rissanen, Charlie Whiteside and Josh Ricci, who have kindly put themselves out in mammoth efforts to provide objective test data to help in the difficult decision of how to spend one's hard earned cash to reproduce the low end content in modern digital source amid a sea of choices and opinions.
Kudos to them, without whose actual data the process would be to ask someone like you what he thinks.
Posting data on the actual content vs almost always errant opinions on the content is just as useful, and I'm glad for those who have taken the time to do so over the years.
Why people buy whatever movies to fill their libraries is irrelevant.

No its not a crime, not saying that at all. I just think folks are getting a little bent out shape do to a lack of infrasonic rumbles in this movie. I watched the movie at the theater and thought it was most entertaining, I still might it pick up.
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post #97 of 278 Old 09-27-2012, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

You still have about 10-15dB or more to make up for with that "100+dB 15hz output". The reference spec for digital multichannel surround is 115dB 3-120hz at the seat. Keep working on that. wink.gif
Why is this thread in the subwoofer section if we can't talk about it's average bass? Lol! There is a discussion of the movie in the movie section. More than one thread, actually. Obviously this was the thread made to talk about it's awesome bass. rolleyes.gif

Re-read please, thanks. "100+" could be 105, 110, 115. whatever for all you know. I've yet to measure at "0" on the dial, but I was hitting ~103 awhile back. I know, peanuts.

But thanks anyway, captain obvious. We'll all keep aiming for the 3hz 115db spec...it is REFERENCE afterall. lmao.

This "discussion" in and of itself is fine, of course. It's the idiotic "contributions" from a numbered few that's problematic of course.

But I suppose if you're dense enough to believe that a "great bass movie" has to have to have sub 20hz bass we'll all have to suffer through inane commentary on a semi-public forum like this.

Sigh.

James

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The 5 star bass movies do physical things to your body and room

Does 5 star bass equate to infrasonics? If so, I'm concerned.
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post #99 of 278 Old 09-27-2012, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Ah, when all else fails, attack the science.
Hold on... Bwahahahahaha!
Ok, got that out of the way.
I'm the only person who uses a mic at the listening position. The reasons and the methodology have been discussed and vetted to the nth degree, but thanks for the cursory glance drive by shooting anyway.
A comparison of the crash scene in HTTYD, direct digital feed vs mic'd at the LP:
Picture18-1.png
See, the mic'd version got rid of that 60 Hz hum that doesn't belong, assuming you have any idea how to properly set up SpecLab or read the SpecLab graphs. If you see something lacking in the mic'd version, feel free to discuss it scientifically. rolleyes.gif
Really, there are 3 people with a bug up their snouts who've decided to attempt to discredit all objective data and those who post it, for some unknown reason.
You appear to be the least knowledgeable and the most condescending. Not a great combination. Scott, MKT, maxmercy, myself and quite a few others, including the Euro Boys, one of whom resurrected the Master List thread, have posted measurements, models, SL graphs, THD test results, max output data, connection scheme diagrams and hardware solutions, sound card response graphs, excellent commentary on how that translates at your seat using various and many systems and much, much more.
There is zero doubt that that is why this forum does so well. Your attacks on everyone who isn't you?... not so much.
Oh Noes, that pesky ULF stuff!!! Unintended artifacts strike again!!!
Unknown.png


ahhh, the predictable straw man argument. Go figure. Again.

I (and most others that I'm familiar with, this thread and beyond) am certainly not attacking anything having an iota to do with science. Not. One. Iota.

I'm simply laughing aloud at the horrendously flawed logic that a movie with "great bass" needs to have content below 20/25hz.

As are others. And it has absolutely nothing to do with some canned notion that we're somehow "jealous" of not being able to produce 115db 7hz content.

Trust me, if it were that imperative to ME, I'd simply drop $5k and have it in spades in my 16x15 room. I've EXPERIENCED IT. MULTIPLE TIMES. Nowhere near worth the price (and size- wait, I know, all the gear is invisible) of admission to ME...and a cast of millions

End of.

But you go ahead and keep seeking out and waving around the fraction of a percent of movies with the content...even less so with more than 10 seconds of it. We'll all yawn (you should be used to it by now) while you break your arms patting yourself on the back with the "but I can produce ALL the content on the disk" diarrhea.

But believe what you like, it's all you got...oh, that and the "scientific waterfalls". Lest we forget.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #100 of 278 Old 09-27-2012, 12:53 PM
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I think the contention is that many (myself included) do not like to see these audio tracks filtered.

If you have a system that cannot reproduce anything below 20Hz (or in this case, 25Hz), you'll never know what you've missed (oh, until you get to see a graph that shows that there is stong content down to single digits.) It then becomes a matter of perspective. (and believe me, I'm a proponent of both graphs AND perspective!)

Folks would be hard pressed to say this soundtrack sounded poor. Now, the fact remains that those that DO have the capability to play in the single digit Hz realm feel cheated as they are well aware of the amount of impact and realism that being able to reproduce said content can lend to a soundtrack.

Neither are wrong. I stated in the "Master" thread: I'm flat and only down 3dB @ 10Hz (in-room) and I thought it sounded very good. My wife even gave me the "thumbs up" on nice variety and texture of the different LFE effects. (That has NEVER happened before in all my years of tweaking and searching for approval to my madness!)

Could it have plumbed deeper. Certainly.
Should it have had more ULF. From an owner of a system what can reproduce "the goods" down low-Absolutely. From others: Meh...
Should it have been filtered. I can't see any logical case for it.
Did it sound pretty good? You betcha! (but it could have been awesome!)
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post #101 of 278 Old 09-27-2012, 01:00 PM
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^ no problem with the "I like my bass unfiltered movement", but is that what's going on here? And if so, how do we know? Is the DVD different?

I'm simply talking about an UNfiltered track, straightaway, that doesn't contain scenes with sub 20 hz content.

Perhaps the assumption (and probably, a reasonable one) is that this disc should have it (sub 20hz bass)?

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #102 of 278 Old 09-27-2012, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

ahhh, the predictable straw man argument. Go figure. Again.
I (and most others that I'm familiar with, this thread and beyond) am certainly not attacking anything having an iota to do with science. Not. One. Iota.
I'm simply laughing aloud at the horrendously flawed logic that a movie with "great bass" needs to have content below 20/25hz.
As are others. And it has absolutely nothing to do with some canned notion that we're somehow "jealous" of not being able to produce 115db 7hz content.
Trust me, if it were that imperative to ME, I'd simply drop $5k and have it in spades in my 16x15 room. I've EXPERIENCED IT. MULTIPLE TIMES. Nowhere near worth the price (and size- wait, I know, all the gear is invisible) of admission to ME...and a cast of millions
End of.
But you go ahead and keep seeking out and waving around the fraction of a percent of movies with the content...even less so with more than 10 seconds of it. We'll all yawn (you should be used to it by now) while you break your arms patting yourself on the back with the "but I can produce ALL the content on the disk" diarrhea.
But believe what you like, it's all you got...oh, that and the "scientific waterfalls". Lest we forget.
James

And we're having just as good a laugh at your insistence that lopped off low end is "A grade" or whatever your personal rating system is, scientific and all without any data whatsoever, as well as your dB level at 16 Hz and and how much you'd drop, blah, blah and we'll all yawn right back.

Let's see. Bandwidth-limited "but, trust me, I've experienced everything in the universe MULTIPLE TIMES" and dropping money... with zero data, vs... well, vs anything else.

Sorry, I don't trust you. I know for a fact you experienced full bandwidth audio never. And please give us something but "No, really, really I did. Ask, so-and-so". I think you just like to pontificate and bring nothing but a lotta hot air to these threads.
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Folks would be hard pressed to say this soundtrack sounded poor.

If we're talking below 20hz we're dealing with what you feel than what you hear.
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post #104 of 278 Old 09-27-2012, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

ahhh, the predictable straw man argument. Go figure. Again.
I (and most others that I'm familiar with, this thread and beyond) am certainly not attacking anything having an iota to do with science. Not. One. Iota.
I'm simply laughing aloud at the horrendously flawed logic that a movie with "great bass" needs to have content below 20/25hz.
As are others. And it has absolutely nothing to do with some canned notion that we're somehow "jealous" of not being able to produce 115db 7hz content.
Trust me, if it were that imperative to ME, I'd simply drop $5k and have it in spades in my 16x15 room. I've EXPERIENCED IT. MULTIPLE TIMES. Nowhere near worth the price (and size- wait, I know, all the gear is invisible) of admission to ME...and a cast of millions
End of.
But you go ahead and keep seeking out and waving around the fraction of a percent of movies with the content...even less so with more than 10 seconds of it. We'll all yawn (you should be used to it by now) while you break your arms patting yourself on the back with the "but I can produce ALL the content on the disk" diarrhea.
But believe what you like, it's all you got...oh, that and the "scientific waterfalls". Lest we forget.
James

Hey, did the guy that you experienced the ULF have a LT circuit for below 20hz? If not then you did not experience it. Thru all my systems I never truly experienced it because I relied on my RS meter and correction files which of course told me I was flat without EQ. Once I bought a calibrated mic and found that the same system I thought to be flat to 7hz was now down 10 dBs at 10hz and 22 dBs at 5hz. When I added the boost down low(I don't recommend this unless you have enough power and displacement for your room) the experience was too much with my normal 10 dBs hot listening levels. I can now listen to 3 dBs hot and have more visceral effects than before. Now if he truly had flat to 5hz with a proper mic and LT(always needed for sealed subs) and you did not care for it well then you are wrong! Just kidding. Again, we are talking that last 1% of performance like spending tons of money on speakers to get that last 1%. Thankfully DIY makes it affordable.
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post #105 of 278 Old 09-27-2012, 01:11 PM
 
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Hey, did the guy that you experienced the ULF have a LT circuit for below 20hz?

What's up ULF? Please define it.
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post #106 of 278 Old 09-27-2012, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr. Spankenstein View Post

I think the contention is that many (myself included) do not like to see these audio tracks filtered.
If you have a system that cannot reproduce anything below 20Hz (or in this case, 25Hz), you'll never know what you've missed (oh, until you get to see a graph that shows that there is stong content down to single digits.) It then becomes a matter of perspective. (and believe me, I'm a proponent of both graphs AND perspective!)
Folks would be hard pressed to say this soundtrack sounded poor. Now, the fact remains that those that DO have the capability to play in the single digit Hz realm feel cheated as they are well aware of the amount of impact and realism that being able to reproduce said content can lend to a soundtrack.
Neither are wrong. I stated in the "Master" thread: I'm flat and only down 3dB @ 10Hz (in-room) and I thought it sounded very good. My wife even gave me the "thumbs up" on nice variety and texture of the different LFE effects. (That has NEVER happened before in all my years of tweaking and searching for approval to my madness!)
Could it have plumbed deeper. Certainly.
Should it have had more ULF. From an owner of a system what can reproduce "the goods" down low-Absolutely. From others: Meh...
Should it have been filtered. I can't see any logical case for it.
Did it sound pretty good? You betcha! (but it could have been awesome!)

Good points, unlike the recent attacks from the few superior folks. But actually, they have so missed the point that this silly back and forth will go on forever with no solution.

My point is that if there is no vocal opposition, the trend of filtering the low end of the sound design most likely will continue. I'm sure the big box stores would love that. I'm sure the pro sound "cinema" suppliers would love it as well. But, where is the line drawn? Avengers is filtered at 30 Hz. Battleship is filtered at 40 Hz. Is that cool? How about 50 Hz?

10 Hz, 5 Hz, 3 Hz, all the way to DC, that is not the point. The point is that when the sound effects are created, they have that content. Filtering is a decision made after the fact. It's completely arbitrary and artificial. Who is it up to and where does it end? That's the real Q, not whether or not anyone thought it was lame for its filter or really cool anyway.
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post #107 of 278 Old 09-27-2012, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

What's up ULF? Please define it.

Ultra Low Freq

 

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post #108 of 278 Old 09-27-2012, 01:18 PM
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You guys do realize that real life contains tons of information below 20hz, right? This movie does contain lots of info below 20hz but it was filtered to be so low not to damage subs(I would guess). 20hz has been the norm but this was at 30hz. This is not normal and real sounds don't get filtered, they are filtered naturally thru our hearing. Ultra low frequencies are ULF's, did you really not know that? You can call them infrasonics or whatever they mean the same in these forums.
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post #109 of 278 Old 09-27-2012, 01:22 PM
 
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Ultra Low Freq

Sorry, what I was asking for were frequency ranges.
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post #110 of 278 Old 09-27-2012, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Ultra Low Freq

Or were you wanting a subjective opinion on the meaning behind the acronym? I'd venture to say different people would provide different "definitions."

 

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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

You guys do realize that real life contains tons of information below 20hz, right? This movie does contain lots of info below 20hz but it was filtered to be so low not to damage subs(I would guess). 20hz has been the norm but this was at 30hz. This is not normal and real sounds don't get filtered, they are filtered naturally thru our hearing. Ultra low frequencies are ULF's, did you really not know that? You can call them infrasonics or whatever they mean the same in these forums.

Yes I do realize that. So infrasounds are felt not heard. When we expirence an earthquake (infrasonic) we feel a shaking and the earth beneath us moves. We don't say we heard an earthquake.
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post #112 of 278 Old 09-27-2012, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

ahhh, the predictable straw man argument. Go figure. Again.
I (and most others that I'm familiar with, this thread and beyond) am certainly not attacking anything having an iota to do with science. Not. One. Iota.
I'm simply laughing aloud at the horrendously flawed logic that a movie with "great bass" needs to have content below 20/25hz.
As are others. And it has absolutely nothing to do with some canned notion that we're somehow "jealous" of not being able to produce 115db 7hz content.
Trust me, if it were that imperative to ME, I'd simply drop $5k and have it in spades in my 16x15 room. I've EXPERIENCED IT. MULTIPLE TIMES. Nowhere near worth the price (and size- wait, I know, all the gear is invisible) of admission to ME...and a cast of millions
End of.
But you go ahead and keep seeking out and waving around the fraction of a percent of movies with the content...even less so with more than 10 seconds of it. We'll all yawn (you should be used to it by now) while you break your arms patting yourself on the back with the "but I can produce ALL the content on the disk" diarrhea.
But believe what you like, it's all you got...oh, that and the "scientific waterfalls". Lest we forget.
James

First of all, thanks a lot James. I was able to ignore that squibbly little post until you quoted it above ... That said you are (as always ... well mostly wink.gif) correct. smile.gif

What I think you are missing is that this guy (whom I used to like and even respect a little) has an agenda. He is trying to start an Audio business making interesting (rolleyes.gif) looking subs built specifically for this purpose. This can be an effective guerrilla marketing technique but he doesn't seem to be getting much traction. I think this is because his vaunted reference single digit capability seems to be almost exclusively embraced by a small sub set of the DIY group and they make bad customers for his products.

Oh well, I wish him the best in his endeavor as we need more successful small businesses here in the US. smile.gif

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"Well, la di fricken da."!
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post #113 of 278 Old 09-27-2012, 01:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Or were you wanting a subjective opinion on the meaning behind the acronym? I'd venture to say different people would provide different "definitions."

I guess you are right as we had folks around here claiming to hear down to 16hz (SMH).
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post #114 of 278 Old 09-27-2012, 01:39 PM
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The only thing this movie has in terms of bass is plenty of it, but nothing deep. I said it one or two weeks ago, now the graphs are up. Told ya. It's a good mix, nothing spectacular. 3 stars is appropriate, I could even live with 4 if you choose quantity over quality, but comparing this one to the top bass flicks like incredible hulk or how to train your dragon, absolute nonsense. Those are masterpieces that can take any system to its limit. Avengers is.. well, I have a David Foster BR that has deeper bass than this one.

You can't argue over personal preference, but please don't say ULF is meaningless unless you actually experienced a system that can deliver the goods.
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post #115 of 278 Old 09-27-2012, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

I guess you are right as we had folks around here claiming to hear down to 16hz (SMH).

My subjective input would be 14Hz...

I'll see if I can find a scientific source, but subjecting myself to sine wave testing for hours at a time, I'd say that was my take on the audible threshold...

 

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post #116 of 278 Old 09-27-2012, 01:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by TimVG View Post

The only thing this movie has in terms of bass is plenty of it, but nothing deep. I said it one or two weeks ago, now the graphs are up. Told ya. It's a good mix, nothing spectacular. 3 stars is appropriate, I could even live with 4 if you choose quantity over quality, but comparing this one to the top bass flicks like incredible hulk or how to train your dragon, absolute nonsense. Those are masterpieces that can take any system to its limit. Avengers is.. well, I have a David Foster BR that has deeper bass than this one.
You can't argue over personal preference, but please don't say ULF is meaningless unless you actually experienced a system that can deliver the goods.

First, ULF doesn't mean anything. The correct term for frequencies below 20hz is Infrasounds. And yes people expirence infrasounds a lot.
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post #117 of 278 Old 09-27-2012, 01:58 PM
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Well, I knew you were going this route and in this forum thread people know what ULF's mean. Infrasounds, infrasonics, frequencies below 20hz, ultra low frequencies, call it whatever you want. Anyone can see the content was there in the recording and the mixers decided to add a filter at 30hz. I know when a car door slams or when a truck drives by I can feel the infrasonics that accompany the sound. If we filter out a truck passing by, a train, etc... it would sound weird in real life so why do we except it on our movies?
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post #118 of 278 Old 09-27-2012, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Well, I knew you were going this route and in this forum thread people know what ULF's mean. Infrasounds, infrasonics, frequencies below 20hz, ultra low frequencies, call it whatever you want. Anyone can see the content was there in the recording and the mixers decided to add a filter at 30hz. I know when a car door slams or when a truck drives by I can feel the infrasonics that accompany the sound. If we filter out a truck passing by, a train, etc... it would sound weird in real life so why do we except it on our movies?

I hope you get your ULF's on the disks, I really do. smile.gif

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post #119 of 278 Old 09-27-2012, 02:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Well, I knew you were going this route and in this forum thread people know what ULF's mean. Infrasounds, infrasonics, frequencies below 20hz, ultra low frequencies, call it whatever you want. Anyone can see the content was there in the recording and the mixers decided to add a filter at 30hz. I know when a car door slams or when a truck drives by I can feel the infrasonics that accompany the sound. If we filter out a truck passing by, a train, etc... it would sound weird in real life so why do we except it on our movies?

There's a reason why they filter out below 30hz content. They don't want you coming back trying to file some kind of lawsuit.
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post #120 of 278 Old 09-27-2012, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

There's a reason why they filter out below 30hz content. They don't want you coming back trying to file some kind of lawsuit.

What..?
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