The Avengers Blu-Ray Bass and General Discussion - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 278 Old 09-28-2012, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

As a man who married into a family of lawyers I can tell you that lawsuit you are imagining is going nowhere. I'd venture to say that only the state of California would even consider such nuttiness... but even that notion is just a sarcastic joke I am making.

Sir: I have neither proposed nor "imagined" any lawsuit of any kind. Please read more carefully...I simply iterated a correct contention on your comment. And it's great (I guess?) that you married into a family of attorneys and therefore can speak so unequivocally on the law, but please do not rope me into any further dialogue that deludes this "bass thread".

thanks in advance.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #182 of 278 Old 09-28-2012, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

The point being made (at least to me) is that everyone has different values and purchasing criteria. The cost/performance/appearance balance is variable based on our individual needs. It's also an individual decision as to how to allocate the cost of personal time and whether one has the time and skills to DIY and whether the cumulative value of time spent in the build counterbalances some of the savings.
Not knocking DIY at all - some unbelievably good builds out there, but it isn't the best solution for everyone.

Please stop. You're making far too much sense.

trust me.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #183 of 278 Old 09-28-2012, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

'Unstoppable' infrasound has obviously already messed with your head. I just could not resist refuting something as comical and absurd as what you were suggesting - that theaters somehow avoid infrasound to avoid lawsuits when the real reason has everything to do with the practical realities of a P.A. system in venue of that size and zilch to do with any of the stuff you made up.

Sir: you are referring to someone else. Please read.

this is insane.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #184 of 278 Old 09-28-2012, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Then Paradigm could have substituted "The best subwoofer in the world, period." with something more accurate, like "The best mass-produced subwoofer in the world, period." smile.gif
Agreed. Full DIY doesn't work for me, either and I don't begrudge people who can afford fine furniture... but when then pat themselves on the back and think that fit 'n finish = performance, that's like a guy buying a new stock Ferrari and suddenly they think they could go win the 24 hours of Le Mans.

Very true on the marketing speak! Also agree on the car analogy - it doesn't matter if you buy or DIY, if you don't measure and place the sub accordingly, you aren't going to realize the best performance unless you win the "drop it in the best place by random chance" lottery. Probably a bigger problem for the non DIYers, as the DIY folks are far more likely to be aware of and have the capability to measure. Some of us who purchased are aware of and follow (as best we can) best practice, but it's not hard to imagine some of the buyers of high end subs plopping them down wherever and calling it a day. Plenty of pictures of questionable placement on AVS...
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post #185 of 278 Old 09-28-2012, 07:38 AM
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Hola MK:
If I had to pick out a single best sub I've EVER heard/auditioned the Sub2 would come out on top. Hard to say of course, with the lack of a side by side, different rooms, the notoriously poor human recollection of sound, etc, but it was ferociously good. The most effortless low-end I can recall hearing. He has a great, small, room though, so that sure doesn't hurt, lol. I can ask him, as I don't recall re the LT, honestly.
Why the 15hz tune on my Cap? Because I could already reach oppressive levels in my room at 20hz. That was really it. Humorously enough, I'd be lying if I said it has made much of a difference. Still a great, great sub and I'd imagine more than 99% of the population would ever need in even a larger room. It's "commercialized" look and price, not withstanding, lol.
James

How do you know that the sub2's infrasonic capabilties helped with your opinion of the best sub you have heard. Also, the reason you felt 15hz was not that different is because the spl would be much lower at 20hz in 15hz tune. I used to love my 16 hz tuned SVS subs better but missed that spl capability with the 25 hz tune. So I wanted that 16hz(12 hz in room) at the 25hz tune spl's! My question to you is, you heard subs that can produce lots of 10hz in room and thought it was the best you heard. I know what I would be shooting for! The sub2's you heard can produce 100 dBs at 10hz outside so inside they could do reference and adding a LT would be even better. If they were the best you ever heard I bet it was not only the sonic signature but all the pressure, feel, etc.... that a full bandwidth brings to the table. Just a realistic presentation of bass.
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post #186 of 278 Old 09-28-2012, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

How do you know that the sub2's infrasonic capabilties helped with your opinion of the best sub you have heard. Also, the reason you felt 15hz was not that different is because the spl would be much lower at 20hz in 15hz tune. I used to love my 16 hz tuned SVS subs better but missed that spl capability with the 25 hz tune. So I wanted that 16hz(12 hz in room) at the 25hz tune spl's! My question to you is, you heard subs that can produce lots of 10hz in room and thought it was the best you heard. I know what I would be shooting for! The sub2's you heard can produce 100 dBs at 10hz outside so inside they could do reference and adding a LT would be even better. If they were the best you ever heard I bet it was not only the sonic signature but all the pressure, feel, etc.... that a full bandwidth brings to the table. Just a realistic presentation of bass.

An infrasonics evangelist at work ... tongue.gifwink.gif

HToM

"Well, la di fricken da."!
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post #187 of 278 Old 09-28-2012, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

How do you know that the sub2's infrasonic capabilties helped with your opinion of the best sub you have heard. Also, the reason you felt 15hz was not that different is because the spl would be much lower at 20hz in 15hz tune. I used to love my 16 hz tuned SVS subs better but missed that spl capability with the 25 hz tune. So I wanted that 16hz(12 hz in room) at the 25hz tune spl's! My question to you is, you heard subs that can produce lots of 10hz in room and thought it was the best you heard. I know what I would be shooting for! The sub2's you heard can produce 100 dBs at 10hz outside so inside they could do reference and adding a LT would be even better. If they were the best you ever heard I bet it was not only the sonic signature but all the pressure, feel, etc.... that a full bandwidth brings to the table. Just a realistic presentation of bass.

Do you mean: how DON'T I know that the Sub2's infrasonic capabilities didn't help with my opinion of its greatness?

Well, the "problem" is/was is I thought they were the "best" before a single piece of sub 20hz content was played. It was all music for the first 20-30 minutes...studio and concert. No pipe organ stuff, but a lot of 25-80hz representation to be sure.

The movies were spectacular too, no doubt, 110+db dynamic, clear, playback levels tend to that. smile.gif But, as I said, earlier, I wasn't particularly blown away playing back some of the know sub 10 hz movie scenes. I just wasn't. If I had all the money, time, and space in the world, sure, I guess, why not.

Unfortunately, I- like most- have limits, never mind other interests that consume all three.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #188 of 278 Old 09-28-2012, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

An infrasonics evangelist at work ... tongue.gifwink.gif

Yeah, but at least he's honest and sensible about it.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #189 of 278 Old 09-28-2012, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

An infrasonics evangelist at work ... tongue.gifwink.gif

Thank you!

Seriously though, he thought it was the best sub he has heard, you can't rule out the extension it naturally has. If he experiemnts and finds out it was something else entirely then good for him. People like what they like. You have some infra capability as well so you get them too, just at lower levels so it all adds to the experience, just not in Avengers wink.gif

I will be watching this movie two more times today and Sunday! Again, I love infra BUT I still enjoy movies without it. I have a little experiment for everyone, put in the Avengers at reference, play your favorite bass scene, and then immediately after throw in the FOTR and play the Bridge of Kazadoom at reference. Or put in TIH and compare the the different Hulk scenes.

BTW did you guys all see the scenes at the end of Avengers(end of credits) if not there is a brief scene.
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post #190 of 278 Old 09-28-2012, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Yeah, but at least he's honest and sensible about it.
James

I'll take your word for it ...

J/K, I like MK. The image of him sitting in his office as the trucks rumble by all day long makes me smile. smile.gif

HToM

"Well, la di fricken da."!
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post #191 of 278 Old 09-28-2012, 08:39 AM
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I'll take your word for it ...
J/K, I like MK. The image of him sitting in his office as the trucks rumble by all day long makes me smile. smile.gif

The funny part is I never notice the truck passing by until my desk starts to shake. I think to myself, this is how bass feels naturally, let's put in a movie and see how close I am. I enjoy this hobby and my wife hates it so it makes me like it that much more! wink.gif
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post #192 of 278 Old 09-28-2012, 08:49 AM
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Enough?
Oh the rotten stench of irony. How many have begged of you, the same?
You (and again, a marked few others) insult others intelligence- many of which who are blatantly and categorically more intellectually inclined than yourself, no less- by repeating the staid, tired, "facts" about sub 20hz content. But, again, the reality is two fold:
1. There are a massive number of cinematic (and musical) "bass" examples that are superb (see the Avengers) and never or rarely touch sub 20hz.
2. And for the fantastically rare (yes, fantastically rare when contrasted with the TOTAL sum of available film and music content) we simply deem it not worthy of (again) the time, space and/or monetary expenditure. Re-read that sentence until it sinks it. No one states that you or anyone else cannot pursue it. Make the distinction.
And when/where have I experienced reference level ULF?
Well, not that it matters but what do you suppose my 15hz tuned Captivator produces with ~4,000 watts in my 1700^3 room below 20hz?
But exponentially better (only fot this inane dialogue, anyway) still: what do you suppose a friend's TWO Paradigm Sub2's produce in a SMALLER room, still? Here, since you seem to require visual evidence in every post like a child who won't consume a cereal sans a toy: http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/paradigm-sig-sub-2-1/paradigm-sig-sub-2-analysis
What do you suppose two of those will produce in an all-but sealed ~1500^ 3 room?
Yeah, that's what I thought. No "real" sub 20hz content, there.
Enough? Pot. Kettle.
James

Hadn't seen that review, it being my first day and all. rolleyes.gif

Let's see, down -25dB at 10 Hz when approaching max burst with zero data below 10 Hz.

Why do I have to "suppose" what your friend experiences? Post the FR and preferably some of those unscientific speclab graphs. Of course, you'd need the hardware and the acumen to use it and a bit more elbow grease than it takes to strut around the forums as the resident digital content/subwoofer expert. Apparently, you'd also have to hire a detective agency to find the movie titles that have pertinent content as well.

I "suppose" your friend has nothing quad Velo DD-18 system wouldn't have given him a half dozen years ago.

Gotta love the "My friend has a [ ], and one time I went there and we played movies...".

Spare me your opinions on percentages (you know, like "massive amount") and your superlatives for soundtrack ratings (like "superb"), which are painfully irrelevant. Your position is crystal clear; you have a system that rolls off in the teens, so that's the benchmark for everyone else... except your friend, whose response is unknown, but probably a bit better than yours, which is OK 'cause he's your friend.

And, even though you're attempting to discredit <20 Hz capability, the Sub2, the best performing below 20 Hz sub you've experienced, is your top pick and your go-to for full bandwidth experience.

Convincing stuff.
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post #193 of 278 Old 09-28-2012, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Hadn't seen that review, it being my first day and all. rolleyes.gif
Let's see, down -25dB at 10 Hz when approaching max burst with zero data below 10 Hz.
Why do I have to "suppose" what your friend experiences? Post the FR and preferably some of those unscientific speclab graphs. Of course, you'd need the hardware and the acumen to use it and a bit more elbow grease than it takes to strut around the forums as the resident digital content/subwoofer expert. Apparently, you'd also have to hire a detective agency to find the movie titles that have pertinent content as well.
I "suppose" your friend has nothing quad Velo DD-18 system wouldn't have given him a half dozen years ago.
Gotta love the "My friend has a [ ], and one time I went there and we played movies...".
Spare me your opinions on percentages (you know, like "massive amount") and your superlatives for soundtrack ratings (like "superb"), which are painfully irrelevant. Your position is crystal clear; you have a system that rolls off in the teens, so that's the benchmark for everyone else... except your friend, whose response is unknown, but probably a bit better than yours, which is OK 'cause he's your friend.
And, even though you're attempting to discredit <20 Hz capability, the Sub2, the best performing below 20 Hz sub you've experienced, is your top pick and your go-to for full bandwidth experience.
Convincing stuff.

What are you looking for, a name and address? lmao. Again. Sure, I'll ask him to sign-on to AVS to post graphs proving that he's able to easily reach 10hz and below in a 1500^3 room with two Sub2's. But then, he'd likely (and rightfully) laugh in my face over the notion of "proving" anything to a faceless, cretinous, well, never mind. That's childish, sorry.

And the hits just keep on coming...when did I propose to be an "expert"? When was that? You have (a) post(s) or is this more boisterous nonsense? Check to the latter. Again.

Have you seen the review before? Prolly, but I don't care...your incessant babble about needing to see veritable, textual proof persuaded me to take 10 seconds and post a link...only to have you mock it. Shame on me, I suppose. Go figure. Again.

If you actually believe MY system has anything to do with any fictitious benchmark you have invented for me- again- you are simply exhibiting the limits of your intellectual capacity, your limitless dishonesty, or, most likely, both.

"And, even though you're attempting to discredit <20 Hz capability, the Sub2, the best performing below 20 Hz sub you've experienced, is your top pick and your go-to for full bandwidth experience."

So deeply rooted within the depths of stupidity and directly contrary to my statement that it's startling. Good grief...stick to waterfalls. Please...for everyones sake.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #194 of 278 Old 09-28-2012, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

An infrasonics evangelist at work ... tongue.gifwink.gif

Hhhallaluuleahhhh... Preach.
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

The funny part is I never notice the truck passing by until my desk starts to shake. I think to myself, this is how bass feels naturally, let's put in a movie and see how close I am. I enjoy this hobby and my wife hates it so it makes me like it that much more! wink.gif

My wife hates it too... We've only been married for 2 years though. Kinda makes me wish I wouldn't have gotten hardcore about this hobby until like 2017 or so... After the ol' honeymoon phase, ya know. She's just jealous of the O face I get when my LMS-U's drop it like it's hot...
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post #195 of 278 Old 09-28-2012, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

I know you were not responding to me there, but...
According to Paradigm's web site: "six 10˝ drivers in SUB 2 move more air than a pair of 15˝ woofers!" Let me tell you something, that's really funny to anyone involved in DIY, but it also quite succinctly describes the limitations of that subwoofer. I kind of forgot it was so modest in capability, I thought for a second it had six 12" drivers... but nope it's got six 10" so it really cannot hope to move enough air to be a respecatable infrasound radiator. I wonder if the Sub 2 can keep up with one single LMS-U or XXX in a basic DIY designe powered by a decent pro amp. I'm guessing no. No wonder your friend has two of them, one is not enough. Two proper 18" drivers in the same arrangement and the Sub 2 is toast. It's comically easy to outclass the Sub2 with basic, compact DIY designs... with tons of money left over to cover the cabinet with marble or gold leaf or whatever . Furthermore I sincerely doubt it is a better subwoofer than the old Krell Master Reference, so their marketing claim is patently false even if applied to production/commercial subwoofers.

If the independent measurements are accurate, the Sub 2 is a far better performer than the Krell (which was $25k MSRP).

Ricci has them in detail at the link below and while it may not be the best performer ever measured, it's certainly no slouch.

http://www.data-bass.com/systems
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post #196 of 278 Old 09-28-2012, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

I know you were not responding to me there, but...
According to Paradigm's web site: "six 10˝ drivers in SUB 2 move more air than a pair of 15˝ woofers!" Let me tell you something, that's really funny to anyone involved in DIY, but it also quite succinctly describes the limitations of that subwoofer. I kind of forgot it was so modest in capability, I thought for a second it had six 12" drivers... but nope it's got six 10" so it really cannot hope to move enough air to be a respecatable infrasound radiator. I wonder if the Sub 2 can keep up with one single LMS-U or XXX in a basic DIY designe powered by a decent pro amp. I'm guessing no. No wonder your friend has two of them, one is not enough. Two proper 18" drivers in the same arrangement and the Sub 2 is toast. It's comically easy to outclass the Sub2 with basic, compact DIY designs... with tons of money left over to cover the cabinet with marble or gold leaf or whatever . Furthermore I sincerely doubt it is a better subwoofer than the old Krell Master Reference, so their marketing claim is patently false even if applied to production/commercial subwoofers.

Based on Ricci's results it out performs the UXL-18 but dual UXL-18's would be more powerful. I am using 12 twelves in my theater and the infrasonic region is awesome! I had more dispalcement before but these rolloff less and require less to be flat to 5hz. They seem to move more air down low due to this reason. With EQ I could make them all sound the same though. The best part are the much smaller boxes.
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post #197 of 278 Old 09-28-2012, 10:15 AM
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Did you do a firmware update on your BD player?
Indeed the problem. I never thought about a firmware update for the BD player. All fixed up now, Thanks.
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post #198 of 278 Old 09-28-2012, 10:17 AM
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Hhhallaluuleahhhh... Preach.
My wife hates it too... We've only been married for 2 years though. Kinda makes me wish I wouldn't have gotten hardcore about this hobby until like 2017 or so... After the ol' honeymoon phase, ya know. She's just jealous of the O face I get when my LMS-U's drop it like it's hot...
Guess im lucky. My wife's a closet bass freak. Whenever we watch movies in pretty much anywhere where the quad LMS's are not there, she always tell me, "I miss the boom boom our h/t makes."

Guess i trained her well. cool.gif
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post #199 of 278 Old 09-28-2012, 10:20 AM
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Where is the Krell data in that link? Krell claimed 120db at 20hz, Sub 2 is showing 110db at 20hz. Am I missing something? This is the only other sub I saw on that list doing (over) 120db at 20hz: http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=45

edit - In the case (no pun) of the Krell, some of that money definitely goes into the aluminum case which is basically the dream enclosure - zero flex... Just aluminum, as thick as the MDF folks are using for similar LMS-U mased subs.
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If the independent measurements are accurate, the Sub 2 is a far better performer than the Krell (which was $25k MSRP).
Ricci has them in detail at the link below and while it may not be the best performer ever measured, it's certainly no slouch.
http://www.data-bass.com/systems

Find out more about Mark Henninger at www.imagicdigital.com
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post #200 of 278 Old 09-28-2012, 10:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Seriously guys, WHO CAN TYPE LOUDER AND MORE AGGRESSIVE!

When I first got on here several years ago and started reading, I was like who is this bossobass guy. Lots and lots of learning and testing on my own part since...

Well he is just trying to be the innovator. From everything I have seen it is a passion of his and not about making $. Telling the big budget movies that he won't settle for 30hz, and for good reason. Jeeze who cares if you can't do 4hz on a suspended floor, don't bash the man who can and has been involved and researching the low end for some 20 years. I have only had a home theater with any below 20hz for a couple years and can commend the guys like him and MK... who say it can be better and there has been. They just want full bandwidth and I see no problem with it. If its there and your subs can't do it, they should be hpf'd and protected. If everyone posts best bass ever... then all movies will be 30hz hpf'd as it is easier on the dubstage equipment and if its good enough for everyone then why leave in the real world low end in the soundtrack.

Watch WOTW with a 30hz hpf, then watch without, not very hard. Of course if you are not measuring then you are just guessing what you like. I have a 30hz shelf filter -4db on the minidsp because of my PVG with Q.3 on my adjustable subs in 16hz tune. Seriously it is 2012, get a measurement device for $300 if you can't figure out REW. I mean how much have you spent on your systems? You think $300 is much, look at video calibration gear, I have a couple grand in that as picture quality is very important to me. Different strokes for different folks I guess. Don't hate on others for being different.

Anyways Avengers was enjoyable in every way but extension, can we get back to that since that is the thread.
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post #201 of 278 Old 09-28-2012, 10:26 AM
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Based on Ricci's results it out performs the UXL-18 but dual UXL-18's would be more powerful. I am using 12 twelves in my theater and the infrasonic region is awesome! I had more dispalcement before but these rolloff less and require less to be flat to 5hz. They seem to move more air down low due to this reason. With EQ I could make them all sound the same though. The best part are the much smaller boxes.

Yep MK. We know one could purchase some hi performing drivers off the internet, construct a cabinet (or cabinets), purchase an amplifier, and finish the cabinet (and most would almost certainly never exceed the build quality or aesthetics of the Sub2 but it could still look very nice, no doubt) and meet or exceed the performance of the Sub2, but of course Paradigm didn't R&D, market, produce, and sell the unit for/to those people, crucially.

I realize you're aware of this, of course, but it's seemingly impossible (or at least unbelievably difficult) to convince a scant few that some people put a premium on their time and/or simply lack the skill or desire to do such things. So, if they have the means, they'll spend three times the price to buy it and plug it in...and enjoy spectacular (yes imagic, spectacular from any angle you care to choose) performance from day one with a great warranty from a great company.

And god bless either of them, it's simply a choice/opinion with no correct or incorrect decision.

James

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Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #202 of 278 Old 09-28-2012, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

BTW did you guys all see the scenes at the end of Avengers(end of credits) if not there is a brief scene.

SHAWARMA!
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post #203 of 278 Old 09-28-2012, 10:30 AM
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Where is the Krell data in that link? Krell claimed 120db at 20hz, Sub 2 is showing 110db at 20hz. Am I missing something? This is the only other sub I saw on that list doing (over) 120db at 20hz: http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=45

I'll look for the link to the data when I get a chance, but Krell's performance statement was, to be kind, optimistic. The Krell site doesn't indicate how the measurements were taken, particularly the distance from the driver to the mic, so it's hard to get a read on what their measurement means in terms of Ricci's process.
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post #204 of 278 Old 09-28-2012, 10:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Yep MK. We know one could purchase some hi performing drivers off the internet, construct a cabinet (or cabinets), purchase an amplifier, and finish the cabinet (and most would almost certainly never exceed the build quality or aesthetics of the Sub2 but it could still look very nice, no doubt) and meet or exceed the performance of the Sub2, but of course Paradigm didn't R&D, market, produce, and sell the unit for/to those people, crucially.
I realize you're aware of this, of course, but it's seemingly impossible (or at least unbelievably difficult) to convince a scant few that some people put a premium on their time and/or simply lack the skill or desire to do such things. So, if they have the means, they'll spend three times the price to buy it and plug it in...and enjoy spectacular (yes imagic, spectacular from any angle you care to choose) performance from day one with a great warranty from a great company.
And god bless either of them, it's simply a choice/opinion with no correct or incorrect decision.
James

Believe me, the sub2 will sound no better than any other sub with equal clean output above 25hz with this movie. Enough said already, do you have anything to add about the Avengers? It has been 11 posts since you mentioned it, but thanks for the lessons.rolleyes.gif
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post #205 of 278 Old 09-28-2012, 10:36 AM
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Seriously guys, WHO CAN TYPE LOUDER AND MORE AGGRESSIVE!
When I first got on here several years ago and started reading, I was like who is this bossobass guy. Lots and lots of learning and testing on my own part since...
Well he is just trying to be the innovator. From everything I have seen it is a passion of his and not about making $. Telling the big budget movies that he won't settle for 30hz, and for good reason. Jeeze who cares if you can't do 4hz on a suspended floor, don't bash the man who can and has been involved and researching the low end for some 20 years. I have only had a home theater with any below 20hz for a couple years and can commend the guys like him and MK... who say it can be better and there has been. They just want full bandwidth and I see no problem with it. If its there and your subs can't do it, they should be hpf'd and protected. If everyone posts best bass ever... then all movies will be 30hz hpf'd as it is easier on the dubstage equipment and if its good enough for everyone then why leave in the real world low end in the soundtrack.
Watch WOTW with a 30hz hpf, then watch without, not very hard. Of course if you are not measuring then you are just guessing what you like. I have a 30hz shelf filter -4db on the minidsp because of my PVG with Q.3 on my adjustable subs in 16hz tune. Seriously it is 2012, get a measurement device for $300 if you can't figure out REW. I mean how much have you spent on your systems? You think $300 is much, look at video calibration gear, I have a couple grand in that as picture quality is very important to me. Different strokes for different folks I guess. Don't hate on others for being different.
Anyways Avengers was enjoyable in every way but extension, can we get back to that since that is the thread.

I don't think anyone has an issue with a civil discussion of differences in opinion...I certainly do not, anyway. And you pretty much hit it on the head with this film: marvelous in every way outside of "extension" (I'd argue DEEP extension) in the bass dept. That's why it gets the "A" rating from so many. You can win the MVP without winning the Triple Crown, you know?

No one is contending Avengers is the end-all be-all bass-king, they're simply stating that, OVERALL, it is top shelf, A level stuff. Yes, without 15 hz content.

I think it's all been said by now, basically, two camps, with one being shockingly larger than the other, the first: that this film (and others) can be out of sight in the bass dept without any sub 20hz content, the other, not a chance without 5, 10, or 15hz material.

It doesn't appear at this point that anyone is going to change anyone elses mind so it's madness to continue further, in my estimation.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #206 of 278 Old 09-28-2012, 10:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Well thanks for running me out of the thread I started. Good day to you. I think I will take another break from posting here.
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post #207 of 278 Old 09-28-2012, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post

Believe me, the sub2 will sound no better than any other sub with equal clean output above 25hz with this movie. Enough said already, do you have anything to add about the Avengers? It has been 11 posts since you mentioned it, but thanks for the lessons.rolleyes.gif

Be sure to grab some kleenex on the way out, sheesh. Bit dramatic, don't you think?

Did you actually count my posts before adding your own that's as equally off-topic?

Don't answer that.

Sorry for breaking up the party- the off shoot really is integral to the discussion though: if folks are going to bash the film for a lack of sub 20hz content, others have the right to a differing opinion on its (sub 20hz) importance, in totality.

I will agree though about the Sub2 junk, again, I simply mentioned it when someone (take a wild guess who) questioned my exposure to sub 20hz content....didn't mean for it to be drug out like it did, my apologies, there.

James

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Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #208 of 278 Old 09-28-2012, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Where is the Krell data in that link? Krell claimed 120db at 20hz, Sub 2 is showing 110db at 20hz. Am I missing something? This is the only other sub I saw on that list doing (over) 120db at 20hz: http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=45
edit - In the case (no pun) of the Krell, some of that money definitely goes into the aluminum case which is basically the dream enclosure - zero flex... Just aluminum, as thick as the MDF folks are using for similar LMS-U mased subs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

I'll look for the link to the data when I get a chance, but Krell's performance statement was, to be kind, optimistic. The Krell site doesn't indicate how the measurements were taken, particularly the distance from the driver to the mic, so it's hard to get a read on what their measurement means in terms of Ricci's process.


Krell gives no clue not only as to the distance measured, but also as to whether it was measured indoor or out. Essentially, their spec is totally meaningless.

I'm no fan of the Paradigm due to it's poor performance/price ratio, but it does have second highest output at 10hz of all subs measured by Ricci, beaten only by a giant ported sub tuned to 12hz. That does make it a formidable infrasound radiator. With two of them, so much more.
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post #209 of 278 Old 09-28-2012, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Based on Ricci's results it out performs the UXL-18 but dual UXL-18's would be more powerful. I am using 12 twelves in my theater and the infrasonic region is awesome! I had more dispalcement before but these rolloff less and require less to be flat to 5hz. They seem to move more air down low due to this reason. With EQ I could make them all sound the same though. The best part are the much smaller boxes.

It only takes 12 12's? eek.gif Well why didn't you say so... I'm in.

Now if I can only find that damn table saw and router, order a few of those Chinese clone amps (I think I'll need hot spares) and get some glue and wire I'll be in audio nirvana. Then, I join that little exclusive club (rumble lovers dot com) and I can start complaining about not being able to enjoy the full bandwidth because of the Hollywood conspiracy. Perfect! smile.gif

HToM

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post #210 of 278 Old 09-28-2012, 11:39 AM
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It's a cool club. Way better than the 'I heart 30hz' fan club. tongue.gif

I know a few teenagers that can hook you up with a real cool sub, yo.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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