PLEASE HELP me Choose sub setup for M&K S150 system - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 36 Old 09-25-2012, 08:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello,

I just purchased an M&k S150 LCR matched with B&W 705 rears. I am driving them with a Denon 4311ci and some sort of amp (recs?). Anyway, I am choosing a subwoofer setup and would appreciate your input:

Either 1 M&K 350THX

or

2 M&K V125

Both would be about the same price as I am purchasing them pre-owned.

Thanks for your advice,

Joe
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post #2 of 36 Old 09-25-2012, 09:38 PM
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You didn't tell us anything about the room, but usually 2 subs is better than one, even if the one is huge. Why would you want an amp AND the 4311ci?
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post #3 of 36 Old 09-26-2012, 03:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks so much for your reply. KInda new to higher end audio stuff. Anyway, to answer your questions:

1. The room is 17 x 15 x 10. I plan on using an acoustically transparent screen to hide the LCR.
2. I just purchased the 4311. The reason I wanted a separate amp is that all that I've read, you get a better, cleaner sound if you did a separate amp. Do you have a particular opinion on this? Is the 4311 enough to drive a 5.2 setup? I was going to spend maybe $500 on a separate amp (used) that throws about 200W/channel.

Would you think that dual V125 should be sufficient?

Thanks,

Joe
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post #4 of 36 Old 09-26-2012, 08:19 AM
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Do you want THX reference levels? The single MX-350 is better than the dual V125's. I would say don't get M&K subs and go another route. How much do you want to spend and any size limitations? I will throw 3 subs out there that are better than either M&K option, CHT SS 18.2, JTR Cap sealed, and Seaton Submersive. The M&K MX-350 is not a cheap sub.
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post #5 of 36 Old 09-26-2012, 09:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for your reply. Just a few questions, being new at this.

1. What does it mean by "reference levels"--loud?
2. Do you think that the 4311ci would be enough to drive the speakers in a room that size, or do you think a separate amp would add significantly.
3. I'm not huge on bass, but I do appreciate a clean, non-thumpy sound. I can get two v-125's for $500 used. I can spend about $1k and get a used 350. Or do you have another suggestion?
4. Any recs for surround speakers? I'm using a B&W 705 currently.

Thanks SO MUCH,

Joe
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post #6 of 36 Old 09-26-2012, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by joechuan View Post

Thanks for your reply. Just a few questions, being new at this.
1. What does it mean by "reference levels"--loud? Reference is playing 0 MV after audyssey calibrates, yes loud.
2. Do you think that the 4311ci would be enough to drive the speakers in a room that size, or do you think a separate amp would add significantly.Again, this depends on how loud you watch movies and the problem will be more of the load at 4 ohms
3. I'm not huge on bass, but I do appreciate a clean, non-thumpy sound. I can get two v-125's for $500 used. I can spend about $1k and get a used 350. Or do you have another suggestion? For $1000, I would rather find a used SS 18.2 or Epik Empires
4. Any recs for surround speakers? I'm using a B&W 705 currently.Timbre matching is best, find some M&K SS-150's, SS-500's, S-80's, or S-85's. S-150's would be best
Thanks SO MUCH, No problem
Joe
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post #7 of 36 Old 09-26-2012, 11:26 AM - Thread Starter
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MK,

Thanks so much for your response. Two more quick questions.

1. Do you believe the dual V-125 may not give adequate bass? Somebody else gave me advice that two smaller SW is better for balance than one large one.

2. What do you mean by timbre? I was looking at a PSB 10s surround dipole, but it is a different brand--how can I match the timbre?

Thanks,

Joe
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post #8 of 36 Old 09-27-2012, 12:39 AM
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Sorry for the odd non-quoted reply, but...oh well.

I can't quite agree with what MKTheater said, so let me add my comments.

MKTheater said:
"1. What does it mean by "reference levels"--loud? Reference is playing 0 MV after audyssey calibrates, yes loud."

But hardly anyone actually listens at "ref" because it's too loud for a small room. The typical loud for home sized rooms is -10 (my personal preference is -11).

"2. Do you think that the 4311ci would be enough to drive the speakers in a room that size, or do you think a separate amp would add significantly.Again, this depends on how loud you watch movies and the problem will be more of the load at 4 ohms."

There actually is an answer to this, and it's not based on the impedance of the speaker, or how loud you listen, but rather its efficiency or sensitivity. This is simply the Sound Pressure Level you get for a given power input to the speaker, at a standardized distance from it. The usual is 1 watt at 1 meter, and the number given is in SPL. MK Sound doesn't publish the efficiency (sensitivity) figures for the current S-150 MK II, and you didn't say if you had the original or the current ones, but there's no reason to expect much difference. In fact, checking a manual for the original S-150 won't get you the figure either, but we can do two things to extrapolate it. First, looking at it's cousin, the SW-150 (in-wall version of the S-150) we find the efficiency to be about 89dB (it's actually specified differently, but we can convert to the standard). You can back into the SPL you'd have at distance other than 1 meter. You basically drop 6dB every time you double the distance. If we assume your front row seats are 10' from a speaker, 1 watt would produce just over 79dB SPL. That's above the level of normal spoken conversation, and we're only at 1 watt and 1 speaker. Without boring you with the details, the 4311ci output max at 140 watts into 3 speakers (LCR) would produce a maximum SPL of just over 105dB. That's above the THX Ultra 2 spec.

Speaking of THX, the fact that the S-150 is THX Ultra 2 means it's been designed to produce more than the THX reference level, by 20dB or so, with an amplifier of around 140 watts in a room of 3000 cu ft at a distance of 12', and as you can see, they will do that with your 4311. You could have looked at the THX Ultra 2 badge and just assumed they'd be fine in your 2550 cu ft room.

"3. I'm not huge on bass, but I do appreciate a clean, non-thumpy sound. I can get two v-125's for $500 used. I can spend about $1k and get a used 350. Or do you have another suggestion? For $1000, I would rather find a used SS 18.2 or Epik Empires"

Let me go back to my earlier statement that 2 modest subs are better than 1 huge one and explain why. It's not about volume, it's about getting even bass response in every seat. You simply cannot do that with a single subwoofer because of room modes. I'll forgo the deep tech here, but every room has them, you can't get rid of them, and they result in really non-flat bass response with huge peaks at some frequencies, and huge nulls in others. If your seat happens to be in a huge bass null, there's not enough power in any sub to overcome it. You deal with them by using more than one sub, each in a different location. Each one excites different modes, and the end result is where there's a dip in response caused by one sub in one location, the second sub fills it in. 2 is good, 3 better, 4 great. You have to use an additional sub in a different location. Given the choice and budget, I stay with using 2 less expensive subs rather than 1 big one. That said, there's a lot of inexpensive but great subs out there. Check out the HSU line, for example. Their subs knock the pants off most others in double their price range. http://www.hsuresearch.com/subwoofers.html I'd consider a couple of VTF-1s or VTF-2s if you can squeak out a few more bucks.

"4. Any recs for surround speakers? I'm using a B&W 705 currently.Timbre matching is best, find some M&K SS-150's, SS-500's, S-80's, or S-85's. S-150's would be best"

Tambre is the general tonal quality of a speaker. Tambre matching is a concept first introduced by THX in their first home theater specs. It makes sure that surround speakers match the character of the fronts. This means that sound moving from any front to any surround maintains its character, and the movement is seamless. If you don't use tambre matched surrounds, when sounds move from front to surround, or vise-versa, they will change character witch spoils the suspension of disbelief. Go with the SS-150's if you can, they're the best match to the S-150 fronts. I don't support using S-150's all around for a 5.1 system, but would for higher channel count systems. The PSB probably won't match well, but are still fine surround speakers. There is a point to having THX surrounds, especially in a 5.1 system. They are better at producing a diffused sound field, and have flat power bandwidth over their entire coverage, which you especially want with only two surround speakers in a home-sized room.
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post #9 of 36 Old 09-27-2012, 05:43 AM
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2. I just purchased the 4311. The reason I wanted a separate amp is that all that I've read, you get a better, cleaner sound if you did a separate amp. Do you have a particular opinion on this? Is the 4311 enough to drive a 5.2 setup? I was going to spend maybe $500 on a separate amp (used) that throws about 200W/channel.
With your AVR, an outboard amp would only be of benefit at relatively loud volume levels. IMO, you should consider:
- a new Emotiva XPA-200* to power your L+R mains, with your AVR handling your center and surrounds;
or, if you think you may move up to 7.2 at some point,
- a gently-used Emotiva XPA-3 to power your L-C-R, with your AVR handling your four surrounds.


*The specs on the XPA-200 are confusing. The web page (and the owner's manual say...
- 150 watts / channel; into 8 Ohms; both channels driven
- 240 watts / channel; into 4 ohms both channels driven
...while the accompanying test reports place the ratings at just under 125W/ch. into 8Ω and just under 250W/ch. into 4Ω. Either way, it would be a solid amp.
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post #10 of 36 Old 09-27-2012, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

With your AVR, an outboard amp would only be of benefit at relatively loud volume levels. IMO, you should consider:
- a new Emotiva XPA-200* to power your L+R mains, with your AVR handling your center and surrounds;
or, if you think you may move up to 7.2 at some point,
- a gently-used Emotiva XPA-3 to power your L-C-R, with your AVR handling your four surrounds.
*The specs on the XPA-200 are confusing. The web page (and the owner's manual say...
- 150 watts / channel; into 8 Ohms; both channels driven
- 240 watts / channel; into 4 ohms both channels driven
...while the accompanying test reports place the ratings at just under 125W/ch. into 8Ω and just under 250W/ch. into 4Ω. Either way, it would be a solid amp.


The specs aren't confusing, and the tests make perfect sense. The THD+N vs Power Output graphs show the onset of clipping at 100W for 8 ohms, 110W for 4 ohms, with a variance in the specific distortion curves for each channel. Fairly typical of a low cost amp. The "rated" figures pick an arbitrary THD figure of <.1%, but the graphs don't confirm it. The problem is, nowhere in the test data is the AC line voltage shown, and higher line voltage will raise the clipping threshold and THD vs power results. Test vs spec often disagree, and power output measurement of steady-state tones (like they used in the tests) often doesn't match how they perform with real audio as they've (supposedly) built in dynamic headroom. I don't see any tone-burst tests.

This is a pointless upgrade, though. All it would do is give you a little over 2dB more headroom in your L and R, but since 75% or more of what you hear in a 5.1 system comes from the Center, the Center will be well into clipping long before you ever come close to needing that 2dB extra headroom. By the way, 2dB is just barely an audible difference anyway. The only reasons to use external amps is for a LOT of extra power, like if you had really inefficient speakers (which the OP does not have), but for it to be an improvement you'd need to at least quadruple your per-channel power. Some also argue that the power supply in stand-alone power amps is better. This can be true, especially if you compare to the power supplies in entry-level receivers. But again, that's not what the OP has. The 4311ci has excellent power supplies and power amps rivaling those in many separates.

If somebody insisted on an external amp, they should put it on the center channel, and bridge it to mono to max out its potential power. Or add amps to all 3 fronts, but remember, to double the perceived loudness you have to make a 10dB increase in power (happens to be 10X). Doubling amp power only makes a 3dB change. To double the apparent loudness over your Denon, you'd need 1.4Kw per channel amps, which could easily blow your speakers.

The other problem with adding an external amp is that some receivers (and I'm not taking the time to dig through the 4311ci manual to confirm this) may disable some processing features when used as a pre-pro. For example, Audyssey Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume assume that the entire gain of the system is known. When you add a device outside the box that has variable or unknown gain, total gain becomes more out of control, so those features may not work. This may or may not be true in this specific case, given those processes are clearly audible, and of high benefit at normal to low volume settings, you might want to confirm they still work when the unit acts as a pre-pro.

On the subject of blowing speakers, if you have the original S-150s, be aware there are no more replacement tweeters anywhere in the world, and the tweeters in the new MK II version are not the same. If you blow a single tweeter in your old S-150 (the middle one is always the one that goes), you'll have to replace all 3 (the center, top and bottom tweeters are not the same). This applies to the 2510P also. For that reason alone, I'd leave the extra power out of the picture if you have the older S-150.

Take any money you would have thrown to an external amp and buy another sub with it. Additional subs make an improvement that is clearly audible to everyone, where external amps make an "improvement" that is clearly inaudible to anyone.
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post #11 of 36 Old 09-27-2012, 08:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Has7738,

Thank you SO MUCH for your thorough and quite funny explanation! I love the following phrase:

"Take any money you would have thrown to an external amp and buy another sub with it. Additional subs make an improvement that is clearly audible to everyone, where external amps make an "improvement" that is clearly inaudible to anyone."

I just purchased a set of used S150's from Ebay, so I hope they work well. I would assume that at "normal" listening volumes in such a small room as mine 17x15x10 it would not cause harm to the speakers, but is there a level to stay away from as I know these speakers are no longer in production and finding a replacement would be difficult? I have kids in the house and am sensative to loud noises so I doubt I would be approaching near that level.

Also, I was thinking about getting a dual subwoofer and would opt for the Epik Legends. Is there something in the $1000 price range you would recommend that may come with better performance or reliability? (I have read that the Ledends can overheat).

Thanks for your advice on the SS150's I will keep an eye out for a pair!

Joe
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post #12 of 36 Old 09-27-2012, 08:48 AM
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I assumed you guys know the M&K speakers he has which I do. I did not feel to explain why the 4311 might not be enough and it does have to do with volume and impedance. Many receivers put out less power at 4 ohms than 8 ohms and if said receiver does not handle 4 ohms well it won;t matter how loud because it would shut down from instability.
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Tambre is the general tonal quality of a speaker. Tambre matching is a concept first introduced by THX in their first home theater specs. ... If you don't use tambre matched surrounds, when sounds move from front to surround, or vise-versa, they will change character witch spoils the suspension of disbelief.
I recommend timbre-matched speakers. THX does, too. wink.gif
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post #14 of 36 Old 09-27-2012, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I assumed you guys know the M&K speakers he has which I do. I did not feel to explain why the 4311 might not be enough and it does have to do with volume and impedance. Many receivers put out less power at 4 ohms than 8 ohms and if said receiver does not handle 4 ohms well it won;t matter how loud because it would shut down from instability.

No receiver puts out less power at 4 ohms than 8. It's actually nearly impossible to design an amp that would do that, though it may not put out proportionately more power for the lower impedance load.

All Denon products handle 4 ohms just fine. If a receiver shuts down under load because of instability, then it's a really horrible design and should be removed and inserted in the nearest trash receptacle.
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post #15 of 36 Old 09-27-2012, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by joechuan View Post

I just purchased a set of used S150's from Ebay, so I hope they work well. I would assume that at "normal" listening volumes in such a small room as mine 17x15x10 it would not cause harm to the speakers, but is there a level to stay away from as I know these speakers are no longer in production and finding a replacement would be difficult?
The current product is the S-150 Mk II, same speaker in form, but an improvement in certain areas. The problem is the current company has no more original replacement tweeters, and the new tweeters are different, so if a tweeter is damaged you have to change all 3 to the new tweeters. Still way cheaper than buying an new S-150 MKII though. They are quite hard to blow, and in your case it won't be possible unless there's a catastrophic failure in the receiver, but the chances of that are almost non-existant. The were designed to be blow-proof under normal operation.

The problem with an eBay purchase is you don't now how they've been used. No normal use in a home theater would blow anything, but there are loads of these in professional studios that are now hitting the used market. The blown tweeters I've seen have all been in a professional studios where they probably did something accidentally that would never be even possible at home. It's easy to tell a blown tweeter in an S-150. The middle one is always the one that blows because the power distribution to it is the highest. Just play some audio with a nice high end at a low volume an put your ear right in front of the middle tweeter. If you hear it tweeting, it's fine. You will barely hear the upper and lower ones working.
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Originally Posted by joechuan View Post


Also, I was thinking about getting a dual subwoofer and would opt for the Epik Legends. Is there something in the $1000 price range you would recommend that may come with better performance or reliability? (I have read that the Ledends can overheat).
Thanks for your advice on the SS150's I will keep an eye out for a pair!
Joe

Look at these...biggest bang for the buck, and really high quality subs. They also play lower than almost any others out there... the VTF-2 MK 4 goes to 18Hz, but I've measured output from them down into the sub-sonic, almost barometric region. They only sell direct, so I'm not a dealer, though I recommend them all the time.

http://www.hsuresearch.com/subwoofers.html
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post #16 of 36 Old 09-27-2012, 10:10 AM
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I really don't know where you get your info but you are way off. THX reference levels are per speaker, so every speaker needs to handle 105 dBs at the seat, not combining speakers. Why do you think I said it matters on how loud he listens. He asked what THX reference was so without getting technical(you gave wrong advise on the spec) I told him his 4311 will calibrate THX reference for him even with EQ and just set it to 0 MV. Whether most people listen this loud does not matter, it is what he wants. That denon could not drive those speakers to reference at 10-12 feet away. Yes, each speaker but if the OP does not want reference or say 10 dBs below he will be fine. Volume listening level is very important to know. Those M&K's could not handle reference in my room even rated for THX and it is 2043 cubif feet! I lose 12 dBs at my seat(due to room construction and treatments). The 5000's did just fine though! My line arrays only lose 6 dBs at the LP.
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post #17 of 36 Old 09-27-2012, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by has7738 View Post

The current product is the S-150 Mk II, same speaker in form, but an improvement in certain areas. The problem is the current company has no more original replacement tweeters, and the new tweeters are different, so if a tweeter is damaged you have to change all 3 to the new tweeters. Still way cheaper than buying an new S-150 MKII though. They are quite hard to blow, and in your case it won't be possible unless there's a catastrophic failure in the receiver, but the chances of that are almost non-existant. The were designed to be blow-proof under normal operation.
The problem with an eBay purchase is you don't now how they've been used. No normal use in a home theater would blow anything, but there are loads of these in professional studios that are now hitting the used market. The blown tweeters I've seen have all been in a professional studios where they probably did something accidentally that would never be even possible at home. It's easy to tell a blown tweeter in an S-150. The middle one is always the one that blows because the power distribution to it is the highest. Just play some audio with a nice high end at a low volume an put your ear right in front of the middle tweeter. If you hear it tweeting, it's fine. You will barely hear the upper and lower ones working.
Look at these...biggest bang for the buck, and really high quality subs. They also play lower than almost any others out there... the VTF-2 MK 4 goes to 18Hz, but I've measured output from them down into the sub-sonic, almost barometric region. They only sell direct, so I'm not a dealer, though I recommend them all the time.
http://www.hsuresearch.com/subwoofers.html

2 lower subs are not always better than one bigger sub, it depends on the subs. You need to stop stating facts when it is simply not true. I also recommend sealed subs for his M&K THX speakers. The HSU ULS-15 is my choice from HSU for his needs.
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post #18 of 36 Old 09-27-2012, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

2 lower subs are not always better than one bigger sub, it depends on the subs. You need to stop stating facts when it is simply not true. I also recommend sealed subs for his M&K THX speakers. The HSU ULS-15 is my choice from HSU for his needs.

OK, but the facts are true, and it's not about the sub, its about the room its in. If you'd like to state some facts to support your opinion that one sub is better than multiple subs, please do so, and site a reference.

THX Tech II training made the point specifically: One sub is not recommended, two is better, 3 better yet, 4 is probably the most you'd need. Sorry, can't share the study guide.

But here's an article that explains it with some pretty authoritative references. Looks like you're arguing with Floyd Toole!

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/why-you-need-four-subwoofers
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post #19 of 36 Old 09-27-2012, 11:05 AM
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It depends on the subs, one MX-350 sounds better than two V-125's having owned both. I think the ID subs are better yet because they sound not only as good(or better) but can play louder. You don't have to me what multiple subs do for a room, I have 12 high excursion 12's in my room and I am +/- 3 dBs from 4-20khz at my LP(+/- 5 dBs at all seats). The more the merrier but make sure the quality is there first. The V-125 is OK as subs are concerned, the MX-350 is much better with spl being equal from two V-125's compared to one MX.
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post #20 of 36 Old 09-27-2012, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

It depends on the subs, one MX-350 sounds better than two V-125's having owned both.... The V-125 is OK as subs are concerned, the MX-350 is much better with spl being equal from two V-125's compared to one MX.

Pretty sure we've all moved past the multiple V-125s in our posts by now. Yes, I agree the MX-350 is a better sub, but the OP owns nothing yet and is clearly trying to optimize his budget. From your last pos you seem to agree that multiple subs are better in principle, so long as the quality is there. But what you're confusing (or perhaps you're not) is the difference or benefits of raw SPL vs even response over all seats. The OP has already outline his needs, and they don't go to high SPL at all. So why recommend a single MX-350? Makes little sense.

And that would by why I recommend the HSU VTF-2 mk4. Low cost, high performance, and you can now afford multiple subs. He's under 3000 cubes, so there's no SPL issue from room volume. But then, you go for a single ULS-15, a $2000 sub, again favoring a single high cost sub over multiple of lower cost. And we're back to our disagreement. My point is, of what use is it to have an expensive sub if there are huge deep nulls in the response? You can't EQ out a mode induced null. You can't even really predict them (the calculators don't allow for all sorts of real-world variables). But they will be there far worse with one sub than with more than one. SPL isn't the issue, response is. How can you recommend a high cost sub that results in uneven response, even if it will do high SPL?

How about this: Don't buy any V-125 subs at all, they're not current product anyway, and would be hard to maintain. Work for you?
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post #21 of 36 Old 09-27-2012, 12:12 PM
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I actually did not recommend either M&K sub. Yes multisubs are better but only if quality is the same. I did not realize how much that uls-15 cost, I would get a submersive for that much money. My M&K speakers always integrated the best with a sealed sub in my room. Since spl is not a concern I would get a sealed sub so multiples can be used and they are smaller and very easy to integrate with the sealed M&K speakers. The natural rolloff of the speakers and subs would be great. Can he get a great integration with a ported sub, sure, of course, but sealed is very simple and smaller in size if driver is kept the same. A single epik empire will have the output, extension, and small enough to move around for the best response. One quality sub in a great location will sound better than two lesser subs spreadout. Now if those two lesser subs sound just as good and have just as much output combined than I would go with that however they would probably cost more if that was the case. I usually don't believe sound quality matters but using one or two subs it does. When using enough to have a smooth response at the loudest scenes without little THD and no compression things start to sound more alike.
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post #22 of 36 Old 09-27-2012, 01:20 PM
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Yes multisubs are better but only if quality is the same.
I'm sure everyone knows by now that we disagree on this. I say you can have a better result with somewhat lesser subs in multiples, particularly if they are lesser in max output. Modes notwithstading, subs tend to add. Use two, you pick up 3dB, use 3 you pick up 5dB. Again, modes not withstanding (sorry, terrible pun, that).
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Since spl is not a concern I would get a sealed sub so multiples can be used and they are smaller and very easy to integrate with the sealed M&K speakers. The natural rolloff of the speakers and subs would be great. Can he get a great integration with a ported sub, sure, of course, but sealed is very simple and smaller in size if driver is kept the same.
Interesting commend. I also have had good success with sealed subs. But some ported subs like the HSU, which are especially well designed and tuned, beat them hands down for low bass extension and efficiency. Since we are going for multiples at lower cost, a good ported design would be preferable. As to integration, that's really a crossover issue. The S-150s are built understanding the THX 80Hz crossover would be used, which is an easy thing for most decent subs. The splice should work fine. And we're tuning this whole mess up with Audyssey, right?
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A single epik empire will have the output, extension, and small enough to move around for the best response. One quality sub in a great location will sound better than two lesser subs spreadout. Now if those two lesser subs sound just as good and have just as much output combined than I would go with that however they would probably cost more if that was the case. I usually don't believe sound quality matters but using one or two subs it does. When using enough to have a smooth response at the loudest scenes without little THD and no compression things start to sound more alike.

You know, I think we are actually agreeing on this. The variable is how we define "quality" of a lesser cost sub. If we presume that lesser cost always results in lesser quality, then we agree completely. However, that's not always true. The big figures of merit would be max SPL and low frequency response, and those figures are often, but not always, expensive. You can certainly spend a lot on a sub and get a very good one, but you can also get a cheaper sub that is equally good if you know what to look for. For example, one of the best sounding rooms I've heard used 4 HSU subs each costing about $500. This combination was way better than any single expensive sub I've ever heard. I measured response down to 7Hz, and it produced very smooth bass from 20Hz to 80Hz in every one of the 8 seats. And it had the max SPL to beat the THX spec with ease, and without distortion. Oh, and by the way, those were the ported subs that changed my mind about sealed boxes.

The other thing is "great location", and yes, that's important, especially so with a single sub, but no less so with multiples. What often happens, though, is a single sub gets put in a corner out of the way, end of placement experiment, especially once the decorating committee is done with it..

So, how do you feel about one badly placed expensive sub vs two or three badly placed less expensive subs?
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post #23 of 36 Old 09-27-2012, 01:47 PM
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A smoother response say within +/- 3 dBs will always sound better than a peaky response if spl is the same. What happens is most people get wowed buy that peak in a response because it is louder. Sealed subs would use the room gain better to get a deeper response but the Empire actually has EQ built in like a ported sub and has great output to 18hz or so then drops off like a ported sub. I have no doubt the HSU sub sounds great. You know we are adding subs to his two choices, out of those two I would pick the MX-350 but as we have discussed I think there are better choices including hsu and outlaw for that matter.
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post #24 of 36 Old 09-27-2012, 02:27 PM
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But then, you go for a single ULS-15, a $2000 sub ...
I did not realize how much that uls-15 cost ...
The ULS-15 currently lists for $1,099 (+$69 S&H).
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post #25 of 36 Old 09-27-2012, 02:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow, thanks for everybody to a great discussion. It seems like for placement flexibility and to take advantage of the new Audessey, I do want to have two smaller subwoofers. Again, depth is important to me as a quality, but not as important as having a nice smooth response as opposed to boominess.

So for those qualities and my budget set to, about $1400 for the pair, I could go Hsu VTF-2 vs Epik Legends. Are there any contenders and since I can't exactly sample these out, has anybody had the opportunity to hear these and make any comments?

Thanks again for your help,

Joe
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post #26 of 36 Old 09-27-2012, 03:09 PM
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... I do want to have two smaller subwoofers. Again, depth is important to me as a quality, but not as important as having a nice smooth response as opposed to boominess.

So for those qualities and my budget set to, about $1400 for the pair ...
Dual:
- SVS SB12-NSD ($1,149, shipped)
- SSA Rumba 12 ($549/ea. + shipping)
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post #27 of 36 Old 09-27-2012, 03:14 PM
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Dual:
- SVS SB12-NSD ($1,149, shipped)
- SSA Rumba 12 ($549/ea. + shipping)

I forgot if you needed small subs but I think you can get two CHT VS 18.1's for that price which would bring the house down(not really). I would find used dual epik empires or CHT 18.2's(these are big as well).
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I forgot if you needed small subs but I think you can get two CHT VS 18.1's for that price which would bring the house down(not really).
Dual CHT VS-18.1s are ~$1,400 + amp + shipping, but they're pretty big boxes (~40" x 22" x 22").
Dual CHT SS-18.1s are ~$1,400 w/ amp + shipping, and they're quite a bit smaller (~23" x 21" x 21"). They wouldn't be as potent as the VS subs, but they're great subs nonetheless (and I'm not just saying that because I own a pair! wink.gifbiggrin.gif ).
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post #29 of 36 Old 09-27-2012, 03:35 PM
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The ULS-15 currently lists for $1,099 (+$69 S&H).
Right, sorry, I was looking at the dual drive version:
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/uls-15Dual.html
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post #30 of 36 Old 09-27-2012, 03:38 PM
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... I do want to have two smaller subwoofers.....
So for those qualities and my budget set to, about $1400 for the pair, I could go Hsu VTF-2 vs Epik Legends. Are there any contenders and since I can't exactly sample these out, has anybody had the opportunity to hear these and make any comments?
Better consider what you think of as "small". The VTF-2 may not qualify...Epic might not either. Check the dimensions.
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