Downfiring or frontfiring sub? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 24 Old 09-28-2012, 07:45 PM - Thread Starter
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I am building a Ht in my basement, I have a cement floor that I will be covering with pad and carpet. I was wondering if I am better off getting front firing or down firing sub? I heard a Goldenear Technology Forcefield 3, 8 inch front firing sub that had a huge passive radiator under it, it was on a wooden floor, shook the entire room, and sounded unbelievable. Would I get the same effect on a carpet covered cement floor? Obviously the cement floor at my house wont shake.

Anybody have advice?

Sling.

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post #2 of 24 Old 09-28-2012, 07:51 PM
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... I have a cement floor that I will be covering with pad and carpet. I was wondering if I am better off getting front firing or down firing sub?
You'll get essentially the same performance from either type.
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Would I get the same effect on a carpet covered cement floor?
Nope. With suspended floors, you get tactile "floor effect" (vibration transmitted through the joists; with a concrete floor, you don't.
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Anybody have advice?
Budget as much as you can for one or two* really good subs to pressurize your space.

(*Depending on the size of your room and/or the level of performance you're hoping to get. If you can only buy one really good one now, buy it, and add a second one later on.)
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post #3 of 24 Old 09-28-2012, 08:20 PM - Thread Starter
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I do plan on running a 7.2 set-up. I am going with klipsch speakers, but I dont think I am going to get the klipsch sub. I was blown away by that little 8 inch sub, but then again I havent heard any other subs other than the klipsch, which sounded OK, but didnt impress me like the Goldenear did. I would love to hear an Outlaw, or an HSU. But I dont know anybody within 100kms who carries those, I might have to jump the border over to Detroit for a demo.

Edit, nice setup you have Eljay smile.gif

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post #4 of 24 Old 09-29-2012, 05:30 AM
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Since you don't need to "timbre match" a sub to your speakers - and given that the Klipsch sub didn't impress you anyway - definitely shop around for something better. There are lots of great options out there, especially when it comes to Internet-direct subs.

According to the product page, the specs for the ForceField 3 indicate:
- an amp with 1,000 "mystery" (i..e, not RMS) watts; and
- extension down to 14Hz with no variance (usual is -3dB, but in this case it could be -6 or -10dB).

It is undoubtedly punchy and it may dig down to ~30Hz, but for $499 (the price on the product page), something like the Epik Legend will definitely dig deeper and will most likely also play louder and hit harder:
- 300W RMS / 750W peak amplifier
- 20-200Hz +/- 3.5dB (16-18Hz usable in-room extension)

What's your budget, and what's your room size?
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Edit, nice setup you have Eljay smile.gif
Thanks! biggrin.gif
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post #5 of 24 Old 09-29-2012, 09:43 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Slingblayde View Post

Anybody have advice?

It's all about reality. Down firing mixes direction with the sound track. Any sound waves larger than 80Hz are considered directional. The low frequency effects channel (LFE) has 0 - 120 Hz content. Anything above 80Hz is considered directional or if you will, you have the ability to determine the source of the sound. Down firing subs, disburse sound omni-directionally vs the directional nature of forward firing subwoofers.

The subwoofer channel is a mono channel as opposed to a stereo channel but the brain/ears/auditory response, has the ability to determine direction due to time domain delay between both eardrums. We can actually determine when sound, independently, arrives at each ear drum.

With all the above in mind, yes the lower two thirds of the LFE channel are, unarguably, omni-directional. If one has more that two subwoofers, directionality of a mono based, reproduced sound signal, becomes moot. The point, the answer to your question although subjective, under certain conditions, morphs into an objective response as it all boils down to how you ask the question.

In direct response to your question, if you're not onto what's what with what, buy a pair of decent subs in the form of a pair of SVS PB12-NSD's, have some pizza & beer and enjoy your home theater experience.

-
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post #6 of 24 Old 09-29-2012, 11:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

have some pizza & beer and enjoy your home theater experience.
-

Thanks for the sub info, and I will most definitely be doing that BeeMan :-)

@ Eljay, I dont really have any specific budget so to speak, Im not going to go crazy and spend tens of thousands of dollars. Im by no means rich but Im not afraid to spend my cash. (cant take it with you, so you might as well spend it instead of leaving it for someone else to spend)

My room is going to be 19 feet wide, 18 feet deep, a 120 inch screen split in the middle of that 19 feet width, with a sub on either side of the screen, an Optoma HD33 3D projector, and whatever else I buy for equipment mounted in a Middle Atlantic rack. I would "Like" to get separate amps and preamps and all that fancy stuff, but the truth is I have no idea how to hook all that up, or match it, or even what to buy, so I will most likely buy a nice AVR. Build myself a nice HTPC, then rack mount my ps3, xbox and HTPC.

I see you are from Ottawa, I was up there years ago for Winterlude once and the Grey Cup, that was really cool. a friend of mine lives out off Hunt Club road. So how do you buy equipment online, every place I see online from Canada is ridiculously overpriced. Anything I buy online I will most likely buy from a US vendor, get shipped to my buddy's house over in Detroit, and drive over there to pick it up. I can cross the border, drive to his house, and be back home in just over an hour. I see that link to the dual Epik Legends has 2 for $899, imagine how bad I would get stuffed for taxes and fees to have that shipped across the border. If I could find somewhere online in Canada for a similar price I would buy everything I need from them.

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Oppo BDP-103, , Middle Atlantic Slim 5-37-26
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post #7 of 24 Old 09-29-2012, 01:34 PM
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@ Eljay, I dont really have any specific budget so to speak ... Im by no means rich but Im not afraid to spend my cash.
That's good to know. smile.gif
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My room is going to be 19 feet wide, 18 feet deep, a 120 inch screen split in the middle of that 19 feet width, with a sub on either side of the screen, an Optoma HD33 3D projector, and whatever else I buy for equipment mounted in a Middle Atlantic rack.
That's a good-sized room, and a nice big screen! cool.gif I regret not having gone larger than 100". Maybe one day...
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I would "Like" to get separate amps and preamps and all that fancy stuff, but the truth is I have no idea how to hook all that up, or match it, or even what to buy, so I will most likely buy a nice AVR.
Get a good AVR that has all the features you want/need plus pre-outputs, so that if you do decide to get a separate amp, you can always hook up to it later on. (Hook up's easy: run RCA-to-RCA connections from your AVR's pre-outs to the amp, and connect your speakers to the amp instead of the AVR.) In a room your size, you're not likely to need a separate amp anyway unless you play stuff really loud, you run lots of speakers off your AVR and/or your AVR is underpowered (and you hear distortion when you crank up the volume).
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I see you are from Ottawa, I was up there years ago for Winterlude once and the Grey Cup, that was really cool. a friend of mine lives out off Hunt Club road.
Ottawa's a pretty nice city. I haven't been to WIndsor, but my cousin's daughter moved there from Ottawa and recently got married to a local (Windsor) guy. So I may have to head down there one day. I hear it's a nice place.
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So how do you buy equipment online ...
I bought an Emotiva amp and had it shipped to a depot in Niagara Falls, USA, then picked it up when I was visiting a buddy near St. Catharines. And I had my CHT subs delivered. I'd probably buy more stuff if I lived closer to the border, but the nearest crossing is Ogdensburg, which is about an hour away. And, actually, I really don't need anything at this time. smile.gif
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Anything I buy online I will most likely buy from a US vendor, get shipped to my buddy's house over in Detroit, and drive over there to pick it up. I can cross the border, drive to his house, and be back home in just over an hour.
That's a pretty sweet set-up for getting stuff from the States!
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I see that link to the dual Epik Legends has 2 for $899, imagine how bad I would get stuffed for taxes and fees to have that shipped across the border. If I could find somewhere online in Canada for a similar price I would buy everything I need from them.
You could always wait for a sale on Outlaw LFM-1 Plus or EX subs, at which time shipping is usually included. A couple of either of those would be a good way to go.

In terms of getting something from Canada, dual SVS PB12-NSDs from SonicBoomAudio.com - located in Markham, IIRC - would be a great way to go.

Anyway, that's enough typing for now. wink.gif Hope some of this helps. smile.gif
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post #8 of 24 Old 09-30-2012, 11:19 AM - Thread Starter
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I posted some pics of the basement in progress in my profile so you get an idea what I mean with the bad shaped room for a HT. just dont mind the mess! tongue.gif

Its going to be hard to figure out how to mount the right rear surround speaker because of the gigantic bulkhead I had to build around the ductwork and support beam.

Optoma HD33, Onkyo TX-NR818 in a 9.2 setup, Emotiva XPA-5 G2, UPA-700 for eventual 11.2 setup
Oppo BDP-103, , Middle Atlantic Slim 5-37-26
F - Klipsch RB-61 II, C - Klipsch RC-62 II, Side/Rear Surrounds - Klipsch RS-42's, Heights - Klipsch RS-41's
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post #9 of 24 Old 10-01-2012, 06:16 PM
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Its going to be hard to figure out how to mount the right rear surround speaker because of the gigantic bulkhead ...
An option for the right-rear surround might be on the right wall using a swivel bracket kind of like this one. Curious: How / where are you mounting the left-rear surround? Are in-ceilings an option, or maybe going 6.1 and mounting a rear center speaker, say, behind and dropping below the PJ?

Nice house and Challenger, BTW! cool.gif
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post #10 of 24 Old 10-01-2012, 08:12 PM
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Id recommend a down firing sub with a passive radiator therefore the bass can be thrown outwards and down. and since the floor is concrete you wont have any issues with the floor resonating (i had the problem). But then since the floor is concrete the vibrations thrown through the floor are wasted due to the fact that the floor is concrete
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post #11 of 24 Old 10-02-2012, 06:38 AM
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^^^

ummmm.... no....

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my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

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post #12 of 24 Old 10-02-2012, 07:04 AM
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I would say its up to the Xover used, if your sub is set for most use below 60hz, it won't matter ( ported or sealed is the issue). But if your sub needs to put out 80hz or higher ( to cover the main and center ) than front and with a clear line of sight to the MLP, due to voice output.. Anything thats not front firing is also much harder to phase with other speakers and could be challenging to blend !
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post #13 of 24 Old 10-02-2012, 08:40 AM
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^^^

ummm, no (again)...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #14 of 24 Old 10-02-2012, 05:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

An option for the right-rear surround might be on the right wall using a swivel bracket kind of like this one. Curious: How / where are you mounting the left-rear surround? Are in-ceilings an option, or maybe going 6.1 and mounting a rear center speaker, say, behind and dropping below the PJ?
Nice house and Challenger, BTW! cool.gif

Thanks, I just bought the Challenger in August, I absolutely love it, I still have the Impala SS, but that is getting sold soon, then I will buy a jalopy for the winter.

That bracket is a very good idea, I was tossing around the idea of mounting the right rear surround at the back of the bulkhead with the top of the speaker up against the bottom of the bulkhead, and the back of the speaker flush with the side of the bulkhead. Almost like I stuck it up there and the backs line up, but I dont know. The right rear surround will be getting mounted above the closet door that is at the bottom of the stairs so that shouldnt be too bad. That damn bulkhead throws a serious wrench in the project.

I picked up some of my speakers tonight, I got the Klipsch RC62 II center channel, a set of the RB-61 II's on order to pick up next week, for fronts, and four RS-42's for the side and surrounds (last years model, but he made me an offer I couldnt refuse) Then comes the difficult task of figuring out which subs to use.

I have no idea what to go for in a sub, I dont know if ported is better or not, I like to play movies blaringly loud, so will port be chuffing be an issue? I like the link you sent with the Epik subs, I could get those shipped to my buddies house over in Detroit no probs, I would get stuffed for %13 tax bringing them back over the border, but thats ok.

The little 8 inch sub that I have rigged up down there now is the logitech Z680 system, and it does a decent job, I cant imagine 2 of those Epiks.

Optoma HD33, Onkyo TX-NR818 in a 9.2 setup, Emotiva XPA-5 G2, UPA-700 for eventual 11.2 setup
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post #15 of 24 Old 10-02-2012, 05:42 PM
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I have no idea what to go for in a sub, I dont know if ported is better or not, I like to play movies blaringly loud, so will port be chuffing be an issue?
I've had ported and now I have sealed and I think I like the sealed sound better overall. To be fair, it's an apple (single PB12-NSD) to watermelons (dual ChaseHT SS-18.1s) comparison, but there's a definite difference in the sound.

If you get a cheap / poorly-engineered sub, yes, you'll get port chuffing. The SVS PB10-NSD and PB12-NSD subs I owned - terrific subs, both of them - never made an ugly sound (unless it was part of the soundtrack - i.e., "Inception"). They played loud, hit hard and dug deep, and what they couldn't handle they gracefully avoided.
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The little 8 inch sub that I have rigged up down there now is the logitech Z680 system, and it does a decent job, I cant imagine 2 of those Epiks.
I think your mind would be blown. At the very least, you'd have a hell of a smile on your face. biggrin.gif
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post #16 of 24 Old 10-02-2012, 06:18 PM - Thread Starter
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I imagine I will be grinning like a complete fool when I finally get this room done.

On a side note, where is everybody's preferred online retailer for a Middle Atlantic rack, Im looking at getting the Slim 5 -37-26.

Optoma HD33, Onkyo TX-NR818 in a 9.2 setup, Emotiva XPA-5 G2, UPA-700 for eventual 11.2 setup
Oppo BDP-103, , Middle Atlantic Slim 5-37-26
F - Klipsch RB-61 II, C - Klipsch RC-62 II, Side/Rear Surrounds - Klipsch RS-42's, Heights - Klipsch RS-41's
Dual - PSA XV15's, Fractal Designs Node 605 HTPC
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post #17 of 24 Old 10-02-2012, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Slingblayde View Post

I have no idea what to go for in a sub, I dont know if ported is better or not, I like to play movies blaringly loud, so will port be chuffing be an issue? .

Yes it can be a big embarrassment, most ported subs when pushed hard will have port noise and its nasty !! If the sub is just pumping and there is no other sounds to cover up and mask the port chuffing, its the worse, and many action flicks will cause this nasty effect. If your showing off your new HT to friends and family you'll just want to die from embarrassment. Ported subs are risky, so it pays to just get a bigger sub than needed so that you will unlikely push it into chuffing or don't worry and get a big sealed sub, sealed subs can have a bottomed out sound when push to there limits. So just get the biggest and best subs you can afford...
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post #18 of 24 Old 10-02-2012, 06:54 PM
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Ported subs are risky, so it pays to just get a bigger sub than needed so that you will unlikely push it into chuffing or don't worry and get a big sealed sub.
My single PB12-NSD never once chuffed in my ~3,375 cu.ft. space. The OP's space is under 3,000 cu.ft., so one or two well-designed / -engineered ported subs (SVS PB12-NSD / PB12-Plus; Outlaw LFM-1 EX or Plus; HSU VTF-15H; PSA XV15; etc.) won't let him down. That being said, neither will one or two well-designed / -engineered sealed subs (Epik Legend / Empire; CHT SS-18.1s; PSA XS15; SSA Rumba 12; etc.).
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post #19 of 24 Old 10-02-2012, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

My single PB12-NSD never once chuffed in my ~3,375 cu.ft. space. The OP's space is under 3,000 cu.ft., so one or two well-designed / -engineered ported subs (SVS PB12-NSD / PB12-Plus; Outlaw LFM-1 EX or Plus; HSU VTF-15H; PSA XV15; etc.) won't let him down. That being said, neither will one or two well-designed / -engineered sealed subs (Epik Legend / Empire; CHT SS-18.1s; PSA XS15; SSA Rumba 12; etc.).

Its to bad that most people will never easily get a chance to audition any of those subs in a showroom. Most all posters and testers agree that there all winners, but just get picky on which is the best of the best in there price class.
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post #20 of 24 Old 10-02-2012, 07:18 PM
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You could try a MK sb1250.
Miller Kreisel always have delivered good products. And for a sealed subwoofer that can dog into the low 20's it definately is worth the money
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post #21 of 24 Old 10-02-2012, 07:23 PM - Thread Starter
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You could try a MK sb1250.
Miller Kreisel always have delivered good products. And for a sealed subwoofer that can dog into the low 20's it definately is worth the money

Whats that sell for approx?

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post #22 of 24 Old 10-02-2012, 07:30 PM
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The mk sb1250 Is approx $1995.
The subwoofer is good for music and movies.
And as i said before, made by a genius company
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post #23 of 24 Old 10-02-2012, 07:42 PM - Thread Starter
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The mk sb1250 Is approx $1995.
The subwoofer is good for music and movies.
And as i said before, made by a genius company

Yowch!, thats quite a bit more than I want to spend on a sub eek.gif

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Oppo BDP-103, , Middle Atlantic Slim 5-37-26
F - Klipsch RB-61 II, C - Klipsch RC-62 II, Side/Rear Surrounds - Klipsch RS-42's, Heights - Klipsch RS-41's
Dual - PSA XV15's, Fractal Designs Node 605 HTPC
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post #24 of 24 Old 10-02-2012, 07:45 PM
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Tis definately worth the money. And looks fantastic not to mention sounds fantastic.
If you dont like that, you could look into a sunfire hrs 10.
That its self drops down to 20 hz for around $1400
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