Feedback Destroyer Pro causes dreaded subwoofer "HUM" - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 28 Old 10-02-2012, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
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I've been chasing subwoofer hum for a few days.

I've isolated it to my Behringer Feedback Destroyer Pro 1124.

Receiver -> FDP -> Sub.

If I remove the FDP from the chain, no hum.

Everything is plugged into the same outlet.

How do I use the FDP and eliminate the hum?
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post #2 of 28 Old 10-02-2012, 01:43 PM
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Did you try a cheater plug on the BFD? That is the quick and dirty ...

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post #3 of 28 Old 10-02-2012, 01:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Did you try a cheater plug on the BFD? That is the quick and dirty ...

No, everything I've read says it should not be used.
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post #4 of 28 Old 10-02-2012, 02:15 PM - Thread Starter
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I've also noticed the FDP introduces noise to the other amps... a low level hiss/clicking...
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post #5 of 28 Old 10-02-2012, 02:47 PM
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Depending on HOW loud the hum is, you can attempt to use the selector button on the back to switch between a +4dB and -10dB signal boost/attenuation. If that doesn't clear things up, you're on the (spendy) road to finding a hum filter if your so adverse to use a "cheater plug".

If you have the option, try and run the BFD from another outlet, perferrably on antother side of the room. Sometimes this breaks the loop.
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post #6 of 28 Old 10-02-2012, 11:15 PM
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I found that even on the same outlet (IE everything in the system on a single power strip) I could still get hum, I think it may have actually been noise fed into the line from other electronics like lights, cant figure it all out in my house because everything is so random as to what breaker things are on, however I noticed if I turned off EVERYTHING in the house I could heavily reduce the hum but not eliminate it. After alot of testing I finally gave up, went to home depot bought a tandem breaker and ran a new dedicated receptacle to the HT setup and eliminated the hum. In my case it was just the receiver + sub, nothing else and I still had hum. Now all the HT equipment is on a single dedicated circuit without problems.

This is probably the last suggest you want to pursue though. =[
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post #7 of 28 Old 10-03-2012, 09:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PubFiction View Post

I found that even on the same outlet (IE everything in the system on a single power strip) I could still get hum, I think it may have actually been noise fed into the line from other electronics like lights, cant figure it all out in my house because everything is so random as to what breaker things are on, however I noticed if I turned off EVERYTHING in the house I could heavily reduce the hum but not eliminate it. After alot of testing I finally gave up, went to home depot bought a tandem breaker and ran a new dedicated receptacle to the HT setup and eliminated the hum. In my case it was just the receiver + sub, nothing else and I still had hum. Now all the HT equipment is on a single dedicated circuit without problems.
This is probably the last suggest you want to pursue though. =[

I've tied everything to the same outlet, and it certainly helped the noise in the system.

I've also moved the FDP to a different outlet, again, reducing the noise further. Although the "HUM" still exists.

Has anybody tried the Hum Elimiator devices?
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post #8 of 28 Old 10-03-2012, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalJason View Post

I've been chasing subwoofer hum for a few days.
I've isolated it to my Behringer Feedback Destroyer Pro 1124.
Receiver -> FDP -> Sub.
If I remove the FDP from the chain, no hum.
Everything is plugged into the same outlet.
How do I use the FDP and eliminate the hum?

Try disconnecting the cable going from the receiver to the BFD. Do you still get the hum? If the hum goes away, try grounding your receiver. This can be done using a wire from a ground or chassis screw on the receiver to the cover screw on the power outlet. This fixed a ground loop hum in my system.

What sub do you have? If you are using an RCA to XLR adapter anywhere in the system, this could be causing the problem. Mark Seaton has talked about this a couple times.

http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post/Hum-in-Subwoofer-5416649

-Mike
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post #9 of 28 Old 10-03-2012, 11:37 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalJason View Post

I've been chasing subwoofer hum for a few days.
I've isolated it to my Behringer Feedback Destroyer Pro 1124.
Receiver -> FDP -> Sub.
If I remove the FDP from the chain, no hum.
Everything is plugged into the same outlet.
How do I use the FDP and eliminate the hum?
That's why going passive is so ghey. More number of connections in the chain means more data loss = bad sound quality.

Go active and get high quality sub, not some junk ones off the street. Or get better cables. Monoprice cables are known for causing noise / distortion.
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post #10 of 28 Old 10-03-2012, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IamAnoobieCheez View Post

That's why going passive is so ghey. More number of connections in the chain means more data loss = bad sound quality.
Go active and get high quality sub, not some junk ones off the street. Or get better cables. Monoprice cables are known for causing noise / distortion.

How exactly does a Monoprice cable cause noise/distortion?

Where does the OP state what kind of sub he has or whether it is active or passive? Why do you assume it is junk?
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post #11 of 28 Old 10-03-2012, 01:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

How exactly does a Monoprice cable cause noise/distortion?
Where does the OP state what kind of sub he has or whether it is active or passive? Why do you assume it is junk?
Monoprice cables (and BJC) have poor conductivity and easily prone to RF. This is due to the low cost materials and manufacturing, as well as poor design and engineering. This affects the timing when the electricity flows through the cable in Audio. As a result, you get poor cloudy non-transparent sound....
And of course, if there is a problem with the cable, it can cause all kinds of issues such as audible noise / statics from the speakers. More connections you go through in the system more things can go wrong. Not only that, but degrade audio quality, unless you use high end cables.

Receiver -> FDP -> Sub to me sounds like he is using passive. Typical home theater systems use passive, which is an old fashion way and not so efficient.
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post #12 of 28 Old 10-03-2012, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IamAnoobieCheez View Post

Monoprice cables (and BJC) have poor conductivity and easily prone to RF. This is due to the low cost materials and manufacturing, as well as poor design and engineering. This affects the timing when the electricity flows through the cable in Audio. As a result, you get poor cloudy non-transparent sound....
And of course, if there is a problem with the cable, it can cause all kinds of issues such as audible noise / statics from the speakers. More connections you go through in the system more things can go wrong. Not only that, but degrade audio quality, unless you use high end cables.
Receiver -> FDP -> Sub to me sounds like he is using passive. Typical home theater systems use passive, which is an old fashion way and not so efficient.

Sorry, but you have no idea what you're talking about. Poor conductity? no. They are wires, period. They do not conduct any differently than any other wires of similar gauge. Timing? Puh-lease! You really are from outer space. Electricty flows at the 2/3 to about 9/10 the speed of light through a given cable. If you think this is something that has anything to do with what you can hear, you've clearly lost your mind.

The "FDP" is an equalizer. It has nothing to do with whether the sub is passive or active and says nothing about the kind of sub he's using. Please refrain from speading information that is completely wrong. It does more harm than good.
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post #13 of 28 Old 10-03-2012, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by NorCalJason View Post

No, everything I've read says it should not be used.
Yes, anything that comes with a 2 prong plug is inherently dangerous! wink.gif
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post #14 of 28 Old 10-03-2012, 03:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ironhead1230 View Post

Try disconnecting the cable going from the receiver to the BFD. Do you still get the hum? If the hum goes away, try grounding your receiver. This can be done using a wire from a ground or chassis screw on the receiver to the cover screw on the power outlet. This fixed a ground loop hum in my system.
What sub do you have? If you are using an RCA to XLR adapter anywhere in the system, this could be causing the problem. Mark Seaton has talked about this a couple times.
http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post/Hum-in-Subwoofer-5416649
-Mike

Thanks for the link, i'm reading the thread now.

For clarity's sake....

HTPC -> Onkyo 803 receiver via HDMI -> rca output to Behringer Feedback Destroyer Pro 1124 (for tuning the sub) -> 500 watt eD A5-350 subwoofer.

The Behringer has those professional connections... So it's rca connection on one end, and the long headphone type on the other as the signal goes into the FDP. Coming out of the FDP is a balanced output, with another professional connection on one end, with an RCA adapter.

I think Mark Seaton is onto something...
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post #15 of 28 Old 10-04-2012, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalJason View Post

No, everything I've read says it should not be used.
If it truly scares you then don't do it. Just understand that there's probably thousands of cheater plugs in use by members on this site. Hell, I probably have a thousand of them in my house alone. My cheater plugs have cheater plugs. No hum at my house for about a decade now. No other problems either.

Stephen.

Chances are very good that I was drinking when I posted the above.

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post #16 of 28 Old 10-04-2012, 12:26 PM
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IF you want to use a cheater plug, invest in a cheap outlet checker to insure you aren't plugging into an incorrectly wired outlet. The issue with ground loops is simply that the 2 pronged items float the ground between the Voltage rails of the power supply while those with a safety ground. Both are allowed by electrical codes, but they can cause major headaches when combined in a common system. The issue is that the two grounds are different, and current will try to flow between them.

Cheater plugs can be useful for quick troubleshooting and diagnosing of the problem. As linked above, the preferred solution to then implement a common ground for the system. If you have a Panamax power strip or separate box, you will see many of them include a ground lug/screw which is connected to the ground pin at the wall. You can connect any wire from this screw to the back of the un-grounded component. Most often just grounding the receiver or preamp will do the trick, as it effectively grounds the BluRay and similar connected devices which also lack a safety ground. Many of the products which do not have a safety ground do still include a phono input, which requires a ground terminal. You can use this convenient screw or you can back out one of the screws that attach the case and pinch the ground wire under the screw. Simply touching the wire to the black powder coated or anodized case will not conduct, hence the need to contact bare metal like a ground screw or under the head of a screw of the case. If this is the source of the hum, it should be reduced as soon as you connect it.

Hope that helps.

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post #17 of 28 Old 10-10-2012, 11:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

IF you want to use a cheater plug, invest in a cheap outlet checker to insure you aren't plugging into an incorrectly wired outlet. The issue with ground loops is simply that the 2 pronged items float the ground between the Voltage rails of the power supply while those with a safety ground. Both are allowed by electrical codes, but they can cause major headaches when combined in a common system. The issue is that the two grounds are different, and current will try to flow between them.
Cheater plugs can be useful for quick troubleshooting and diagnosing of the problem. As linked above, the preferred solution to then implement a common ground for the system. If you have a Panamax power strip or separate box, you will see many of them include a ground lug/screw which is connected to the ground pin at the wall. You can connect any wire from this screw to the back of the un-grounded component. Most often just grounding the receiver or preamp will do the trick, as it effectively grounds the BluRay and similar connected devices which also lack a safety ground. Many of the products which do not have a safety ground do still include a phono input, which requires a ground terminal. You can use this convenient screw or you can back out one of the screws that attach the case and pinch the ground wire under the screw. Simply touching the wire to the black powder coated or anodized case will not conduct, hence the need to contact bare metal like a ground screw or under the head of a screw of the case. If this is the source of the hum, it should be reduced as soon as you connect it.
Hope that helps.

Thank you for the reply Mark.

It seems to me the problem has to do with the connection between the FDP and the sub.

If I understand the link posted to your forum above, there is an issue with grounding on a XLR-> TRS cable. That's exactly what I'm using.

I think I'll try using the TRS output on the FDP with a TRS to RCA adapter, then run a regular RCA cable to the sub.
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post #18 of 28 Old 10-10-2012, 12:38 PM
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I think you'll just be changing which device creates the ground loop hum. It's ultimately about the grounding of the devices as a whole, and not about the kind of cable used to connect the devices. The power supply to the receiver sees one ground and the power tsupply to the other device sees a different ground. The difference in the ground potentials causes the hum when the 2 deices are connected together. Whether you're connected via single ended cables or balanced cables, ground hum does not depend at all on what kind of termination is between the cable and either device. It would exist if you opened up both devices and soldered a permanent wire connection between them. You need to get both devices to see the same ground to eliminate the goround loop. Nothing in the audio connection between 2 devices can affect the ground that the power supply sees from the wall.
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post #19 of 28 Old 10-10-2012, 01:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay... I'm no longer using the XLR outputs on the FDP... 90% of my hum is gone.

Now to get rid of that last 10%... No hum at all if I unplug the power from the FDP.
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post #20 of 28 Old 10-10-2012, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalJason View Post

No hum at all if I unplug the power from the FDP.
.

This should not be surprising. The hum comes from differences in the ground at the wall plug that the devices are plugged in to. So if you unplug a device, it no longer has a ground reference at all and it cannot therefore have a different ground from any other device and cannot contribute to a hum problem
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post #21 of 28 Old 10-10-2012, 01:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

.
This should not be surprising. The hum comes from differences in the ground at the wall plug that the devices are plugged in to. So if you unplug a device, it no longer has a ground reference at all and it cannot therefore have a different ground from any other device and cannot contribute to a hum problem

What a pain in the ass this hum problem is...

cool.gif
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post #22 of 28 Old 10-10-2012, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalJason View Post

Okay... I'm no longer using the XLR outputs on the FDP... 90% of my hum is gone.

Now to get rid of that last 10%... No hum at all if I unplug the power from the FDP.

Have you made any temporary attempts to ground the chassis of either the receiver or the BFD as I suggested above? All you need is a spare piece of bare speaker wire.

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post #23 of 28 Old 10-10-2012, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalJason View Post

What a pain in the ass this hum problem is...
cool.gif
I've plugged everything into the same "power conditioner" before (so everything was on the same circuit), even had the cable (TV) grounded through the power conditioner giving everything the exact same ground and still got a hum. A cheater plug is pretty much a necessity with the BFD in my experience.
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post #24 of 28 Old 10-10-2012, 04:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Have you made any temporary attempts to ground the chassis of either the receiver or the BFD as I suggested above? All you need is a spare piece of bare speaker wire.

Hi Mark,

I'm unclear as to where to connect it at the wall outlet.

The FDP does have a grounding screw on the bottom, and my receiver does also. Do I simply connect the FDP's grounding screw to the receiver? Or, the reciever to the wall? Where exactly do I put the other end of the speaker wire?
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post #25 of 28 Old 10-10-2012, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalJason View Post

Hi Mark,
I'm unclear as to where to connect it at the wall outlet.
The FDP does have a grounding screw on the bottom, and my receiver does also. Do I simply connect the FDP's grounding screw to the receiver? Or, the reciever to the wall? Where exactly do I put the other end of the speaker wire?

Try wrapping the other end of the temp ground wire underneath the cover plate screw of the wall outlet.

Chris
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post #26 of 28 Old 10-10-2012, 06:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Well... problem is now solved.

I was unscrewing the grounding screw on the bottom of the FDP. And, just as I got a few threads of the screw out, the hum stopped.

eek.gif

Screw it back in, hum comes back. Screw it out a little, hum completely gone.

eek.gifeek.gif

So I think i'm just going to keep it unscrewed a little, and be happy with the silence.

biggrin.gif
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post #27 of 28 Old 10-11-2012, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalJason View Post

Well... problem is now solved.
I was unscrewing the grounding screw on the bottom of the FDP. And, just as I got a few threads of the screw out, the hum stopped.
eek.gif
Screw it back in, hum comes back. Screw it out a little, hum completely gone.
eek.gifeek.gif
So I think i'm just going to keep it unscrewed a little, and be happy with the silence.
biggrin.gif

So you have effectively eliminated the ground on the unit thereby rendering the same net effect of a cheater plug. Well done ... tongue.gif

HToM

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post #28 of 28 Old 10-11-2012, 12:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

So you have effectively eliminated the ground on the unit thereby rendering the same net effect of a cheater plug. Well done ... tongue.gif

Haha... I have no idea. I just know that it worked.

biggrin.gif
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