Jamo Sub 650 or SVS SB12-NSD differences? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 25 Old 10-06-2012, 04:40 PM - Thread Starter
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I am looking at two sealed subs for HT and music listening to go with a Polk RM 7600 speaker system. What would the difference be, performance wise, between the two? I have a 15X15 room with high ceilings and open up to other parts of the house. I have never been a fan of ported subs so I want to stay with a sealed sub (or two) if possible.

Please let me know what you all think would be the difference between the two aforementioned products.

Thanks!
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post #2 of 25 Old 10-06-2012, 11:23 PM
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svs maintain better quality than jamo easily!
Hands down svs!
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post #3 of 25 Old 10-08-2012, 07:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Any other "sonic" differences? What would work best? It is all about the sound and impact
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post #4 of 25 Old 10-08-2012, 09:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Any other small-ish subs that should be added to this list? Looking to stay at r around $600.
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post #5 of 25 Old 10-08-2012, 10:00 PM
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Go SVS, much better than Jamo. There is a thread that compares the Jamo you are speaking of and a Klipsch RW-12D. The conclusion to the tests is that they are equal in terms of performance.
So quotes from the article...
"*This Jamo sub is no where near worth $900 MSRP as compared to other $1000 ID subs."
"The $1000 price point for internet direct subwoofers is a big jump from these mainstream $700 brick and morter retail store subwoofers."

In other words, there is no comparison between Jamo or Klipsch vs. SVS or HSU

In conclusion, go with the SVS. It's a much better sub.

Link to article/thread referenced... http://www.avsforum.com/t/1426307/klipsch-rw-12d-pair-vs-jamo-sub-650-pair-vs-dayton-audio-titanic-mk-iii-sealed-sub-pair-subwoofer-g2g

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post #6 of 25 Old 10-08-2012, 11:11 PM
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I would try the Rumba 12 over the Jamo and SVS subs, if I were going for a sealed 12" sub. It looks like its using a very serious driver, after all how the hell does a sealed 12" sub end up weighing 75 lbs?! The price is right too.
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post #7 of 25 Old 10-08-2012, 11:34 PM
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Jrunr, what is your budget? The Jamo has been at blow out prices lately (~$250/ea) which can't be ignored. For $500, you're going to have a hard time finding a pair of subs that'll beat the Sub 650. If, on the other hand, you are looking at the Jamo at or near the MSRP of$900/ea, then several subs spring to mind that will be a better option. The aforementioned SVS, Simply Sound Audio Rumba 12, Powersound Audio XS15, and Rythmik F12 all spring to mind. Partly because they are all less than the MSRP of the Jamo.

My concerns about the Jamo are a) if buying clearance/blowout, is the warranty affected b) if buying clearance/blowout is it returnable if it doesn't work or suit your needs c) I've seen more defective Jamo stories than defective SVS/Rythmik stories (both the Rumba and XS15 are new offerings, so it is not really fair to compare on this front).

In the Jamo's defense, Archaea seemed to really like the one he recently picked up, and it seemed to measure well.

Again, as most things do, it comes down to budget. You can pick up two Jamo's on clearance (assuming you can find them) for less than i of any of the above mentioned subs.

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post #8 of 25 Old 10-08-2012, 11:52 PM - Thread Starter
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I am trying to stay within the $500-600 range at most. I am also considering something like the Epik Legend as well, but it is quite a bit larger than everything else. SIze is a factor is how everything is set up in my living room... The Rumba has like zero info on it. It looks great on paper, but who actually has one? Who has actually heard one? The ergonomics of it look great, but how is it going to do handling the higher bass notes (60-120ish hertz) when being used with my rather large sub sat system (polk rm 7600)...

These are all things I need to consider. The Jamo is nice but I also cant find it for the low price of $250-300 anymore. If you know of anywhere to get them at that proce, please point me in the direction. lol
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post #9 of 25 Old 10-09-2012, 01:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jrunr View Post

The Rumba has like zero info on it. It looks great on paper, but who actually has one? Who has actually heard one? The ergonomics of it look great, but how is it going to do handling the higher bass notes (60-120ish hertz) when being used with my rather large sub sat system (polk rm 7600)...

There's a thread on the Rumba. You can check there for more info and opinions.

At least it has a 30 day home trial. So you can try it. Of course you'll be out the shipping cost in the event you don't like it. Nevertheless, the specs look good for the Rumba.
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post #10 of 25 Old 10-09-2012, 02:07 AM
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I haven't seen any of the Jamo's in stock lately, hence my "if you can find it" comment.

As for the Rumba, in addition to the thread on Simply Sound here at AVS, a review was done on the Rumba at Home Theater Shack by Jim Wilson, or Jman as he goes by there. The review has plenty of subjecte observations and some measurements. He also took the Rumba apart so you can get a good peak at the internals.

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post #11 of 25 Old 10-17-2012, 07:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Still looking for an "affordable" and "small" sub that can get to 20hz... With the Jamo 650 no longer to be found, whats the next best choice?
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post #12 of 25 Old 10-17-2012, 08:24 AM
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sb12 no doubt

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post #13 of 25 Old 10-17-2012, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jrunr View Post

Still looking for an "affordable" and "small" sub that can get to 20hz... With the Jamo 650 no longer to be found, whats the next best choice?

1st choice would be powersound audio xs15 and SVS Sb12 second.

3 - JTR 228's LCR (game room)
4 - DIY Sound Group V-8 Coaxials in slanted boxes (game room)
4 - PSA Triax's (game room)
3 - DIY Sound Group V-8 Coaxials in Ported Boxes for LCR's
2 - SVS SB13+'s (living room)
1 - SVS SB12-NSD (bedroom)
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post #14 of 25 Old 10-18-2012, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by wichitadisciple View Post

Go SVS, much better than Jamo. There is a thread that compares the Jamo you are speaking of and a Klipsch RW-12D. The conclusion to the tests is that they are equal in terms of performance.
So quotes from the article...
"*This Jamo sub is no where near worth $900 MSRP as compared to other $1000 ID subs."
"The $1000 price point for internet direct subwoofers is a big jump from these mainstream $700 brick and morter retail store subwoofers."

In other words, there is no comparison between Jamo or Klipsch vs. SVS or HSU

In conclusion, go with the SVS. It's a much better sub.

Link to article/thread referenced... http://www.avsforum.com/t/1426307/klipsch-rw-12d-pair-vs-jamo-sub-650-pair-vs-dayton-audio-titanic-mk-iii-sealed-sub-pair-subwoofer-g2g


I wrote that comparison and don't agree with your summary. There is no question in my mind that I'd prefer two Jamos over a single SVS SB12 with the bonus of spending much less money on the pair of Jamos. 1 on 1 I'd guess the SVS to be better than the Jamo on multiple fronts, (driver quality, box quality, amp reliability) but not twice as good overall.

What you aren't taking account for is that the RW-12D is no slouch. This S&V 2007 review arguably states the RW-12D is better than the 2007 SVS SB12 plus sub (older model) and slightly behind the HSU vtf3-mk2 and Outlaw LFM-1EX.


http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/shootout-five-mid-price-subwoofers



The Jamo was an unrivaled value at $250, which is why I bought one after hearing and measuring a borrowed unit. Unfortunately, the point is moot because the deal is no longer available and the model is retired. The RW-12D remains the budget champion at this time....not because it beats subs that cost $300, but because it beats and rivals subs that cost $600-$700.



I said that it doesn't rival $1000 id subs. The HSU VTF-15H is a in a whole other universe when compared to the Jamo sub 650.

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post #15 of 25 Old 10-18-2012, 05:00 PM
 
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I might be considered nit picking but out of fairness, as you noted, that's a five year old article and in my opinion, can't take into considerations changes to contemporary sub designs.

By Ken C. Pohlmann
Posted May 22, 2007
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post #16 of 25 Old 10-18-2012, 05:16 PM
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yes it is five years old but SVS has been all the rave for about 10 years. They've made good products for a long time. The outlaw in that article is still current model and very well liked and respected around here.

my point isnt to defame SVS, but rather note the closeout klipsch and jamos are/were exceptional values for $300.

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post #17 of 25 Old 10-19-2012, 07:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

yes it is five years old but SVS has been all the rave for about 10 years. They've made good products for a long time. The outlaw in that article is still current model and very well liked and respected around here.
my point isnt to defame SVS, but rather note the closeout klipsch and jamos are/were exceptional values for $300.

What I keyed on was your comment before you posted the link:

Quote:
What you aren't taking account for is that the RW-12D is no slouch. This S&V 2007 review arguably states the RW-12D is better than the 2007 SVS SB12 plus sub (older model) and slightly behind the HSU vtf3-mk2 and Outlaw LFM-1EX.

In my head, I'm thinking about today's SVS models vs models five years ago vs Klipsch equivalents.

Quote:
The RW-12D remains the budget champion at this time....not because it beats subs that cost $300, but because it beats and rivals subs that cost $600-$700.

Agreeing with you, you're correct when you post that the RW-12D is no slouch and at a closeout of ~$300.00, it's a killer value. I totally missed the $300.00 price point comment. Newegg is currently showing them for $349.00, but that's a niggle. When we have the money, because of the authoritative lower end grunt, I'm looking at a pair of SVS, PB12-NSD. Again, agreeing with you, what ever direction one goes, they're looking at paying close to twice the price to top the performance of the RW-12D.

Another performer in the lower end of the three hundred dollar price range is the BIC PL-200. Digs a bit deeper but not with as much authority as the Klipsch, RW-12D. Just more information to muddy the waters with; depth or authority in presentation. What's it going be?

As to the OP title, as opposed to sealed box vs ported, I choose the ported SVS, PB12-NSD for three reasons:

Depth of frequency response; <20Hz

Authority of presentation, how loud can it go: real world presentation, >110dB @ 10%THD. A pair just makes THX reference levels @ <10% THD.

Delivered price; $1,461.00/pr.

Data-Bass.com has an excellent set of graphs regarding SVS products.

In fairness to the Jamo subs, the Jamo looks better, but doesn't dig as deep as the SVS model (18Hz vs 24Hz) and is roughly a hundred bucks more.

In my opinion, at these price levels, one needs to make a choice of either music or Home Theater as they can't choose both. I chose Home Theater performance over music performance. A question to the OP, what do you have against ported subs? What are your final expectations out of this sub choice? Are you just wanting some head banging bass or are you wanting to get THX reference level bass at a budget minded price? Based on what others have said, four subs is better than two subs. The WAF limits me to two subs. WAF and THX reference levels are two very important considerations.

My understanding, today's movie soundtracks are spec'd to 20Hz (correct me on any misunderstanding) so not going to 20Hz is an important note to make. How much a listener's ear will pick up on and miss, is the buyer's decision to make as to level of importance.

At this level, price limits performance for obvious reasons. In evaluation, one feels they're splitting hairs and that's because they are. For me, in the final evaluation, I look to spectrographs and waterfall charts as I find both to be the final word in what one can expect in real world performance. I can't find any waterfall/spectrographs on the Jamo products. Can anybody supply links to waterfall/spectrographs for Jamo subwoofers?

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post #18 of 25 Old 10-19-2012, 08:29 AM
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Beeman
Don't put to much confidence in manufacturers specs.

Capricornkid has both rw12d and pl-200. The rw12d is flatter towards 20 hz significantly as noted by his sms-1 graphs. Pl200 does not dig deeper.

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post #19 of 25 Old 10-19-2012, 10:40 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Beeman
Don't put to much confidence in manufacturers specs.
Capricornkid has both rw12d and pl-200. The rw12d is flatter towards 20 hz significantly as noted by his sms-1 graphs. Pl200 does not dig deeper.

I try to stay away from manufacture specs and as I posted, try to use found testing data, mostly that of waterfall and spectrographs. That's why the request for linked graphed information and when I can, why I post links to information, so folks can see for themselves where I'm coming from. Do you have links to Capricornkid's information?
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post #20 of 25 Old 10-20-2012, 05:07 AM
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There is a lot of discussion in here....It got a little heated between the two threads running in parallel on the subject. But you can't say much against the sound and vision review and the graphs captured from capricorn kid. Same room, same placement, same setup, same day.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1364182/list-of-budget-subwoofers-300-and-less/280_20#post_22267268

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post #21 of 25 Old 10-20-2012, 07:27 AM
 
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First things first, thanks for the links to Capricornkid's information as folks lose sight of the amount of effort that goes into a "simple" exercise such as comparing two different subs, graphing and posting and annotating the results. A sulute to Capricornkid for his efforts and your's for forwarding the linked information.

With the above in mind, I feel that I'm being backed into a conversational corner based on the graphs posted. So allow me to ask, what are you wanting me to take away from the posted graphs? The reason I ask, in a sound control room, one doesn't place the slider positions to flat because they use the sliders to EQ the sound to flat. Yes, later in the thread, Capricornkid attempted to do just that and EQ out null and reinforcements.

(The Velodyne, SMS-1 looks like a nice add for one who likes to play.)

In the first couple of graphs, what I saw was opposite to how sound tracks are mixed. Short of being willing to jump the fence, go all sound crazy and start doing measurements myself, realistically, I'm in no position to be a "true" critic of another person's thoughtful effort. All I can do is kickback and sincerely say; thanks for the efforts.

My attitude is: "Walk the walk Chuck or put a cork in it." That sort of cleaned up conversation and for your understanding, after thirty plus professional years of not being appreciated, I've sworn myself to mediocrity and refuse to ever jump the fence again. Philosophically, I'm a pragmatist and in cases of sound and art, believe that purity of action is a sign of insecurity. I say Photoshop the bejesus out of the image as it's an image, not sworn court evidence and I say, when one can, in the reproduction venue, EQ the heck out of the track. That's the beauty of having an AVR with XT32; we have XT. As you pointed out in the provided link, my thinking, if there's a 40HZ null in the room (A reading note, the 80Hz signal was bumped in both and didn't show as a harmonic null) and one has the ability to bump that 40Hz slider the necessary 3dB or 6dB so as to flatten the curve, then without hesitation, one should reach right over and make it happen. Whether in a performing arts venue, a sound recording studio or sitting at a THX movie mixing board, I have no conflicts with this type of behavior as that's what's being done by all mixing crews.

Allow me to repeat myself so my thought isn't unintentionally lost in my above ramblings: "So allow me to ask, what are you wanting me to take away from the posted graphs?"

....................................???

I'm not knocking your thoughtfulness when I post, personally, I'm looking for waterfall graphs and spectrographs as opposed to a linear EQ graph. What I took away from the posted information was, if given half a chance, room acoustics will eat reproduced sound alive more than what the capability of the two subs were. Yes, I read your very interesting and insightful comments regarding the design differences of the two subs; a snapshot of your comments below:

"NOW this isn't to say the BIC PL200 is bad. To the contrary. Some might prefer this design decision ---where it stays clean at loud volumes playing demanding source material. But the Klipsch is definately more accurate to the original source, and if kept within its limits --- the more desirable sub, at least in my strong opinion."

In truth, there is no accuracy to the original source as everything has intentionally been colored from the choice of instruments and strings to the choice of venue treatements, to the personal preferences and mood of the mixing crew, all of which has been colored by everybody's personal bias'; taught thinking. What happens when everybody's signal is EQ'd flat; at the pre-out and in the room?



An aside, to counter the room eating the sound, I use Fluid Dynamics and see sound as if waves of water in the room. Makes it much easier to visualize the invisible and hopefully, counter the behavior of the room's need to eat sound.

A note, should I get the Jones, after installation of the new subs (when money comes available,), just for giggles, I'll pull out the mic and scope the room. Should make for a month or two of healthy, Alzheimer's delaying entertainment. Looking forward to your reply on what I should take away from the linked information.

And FWIW, yes, overall, I would consider the Klipsch, RW-12D a better choice over the BIC, PL-200. But then again, in the same light, I'd consider the SVS, PB12-NSD to be a better choice over the Klipsch, RW-12D as in the end, it's all about available budget.


...........................wink.gif

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post #22 of 25 Old 10-20-2012, 04:40 PM
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post #23 of 25 Old 10-22-2012, 03:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Found another Jamo Sub 650 so I am looking forward to receiving and integrating to my system. smile.gif
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post #24 of 25 Old 10-24-2012, 12:25 PM
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Found another Jamo Sub 650 so I am looking forward to receiving and integrating to my system. smile.gif

Where can they be found at?
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post #25 of 25 Old 10-24-2012, 03:56 PM - Thread Starter
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I bought mine off eBay. I hope I dont get screwed on it...

They is also a Sub 660 on eBay as well. Just search for it. It took me a couple weeks but I made an offer of $300 shipped to the seller and he agreed to it. Maybe you can get a better price on the 660 as well...
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