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post #1 of 76 Old 10-17-2012, 04:49 PM - Thread Starter
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ive been reading more about dual subs and this term came up, stereo subs. something about instead of using the sub out, you tap into the main left and main right signal for the subwoofer. are there benefits or negatives to doing it this way? thanks
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post #2 of 76 Old 10-17-2012, 04:59 PM
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Imo using bass management is wuperior. Unless your head is ten feetvwide you cannot really hear stereo bass and the
advsntsges which mostly relate to minimizing peaks and nulls work just fine eith mono subs.
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post #3 of 76 Old 10-17-2012, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgrotel View Post

ive been reading more about dual subs and this term came up, stereo subs. something about instead of using the sub out, you tap into the main left and main right signal for the subwoofer. are there benefits or negatives to doing it this way? thanks

This is probably the most currently talked about paper re: multiple subs.

http://www.aes.org/e-lib/download.cfm?ID=13680&name=harman

It basically recommends a particular physical configuration of 4 subs that it claims goes some distance towards maintaining a uniform distribution of bass in the room.
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post #4 of 76 Old 10-17-2012, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgrotel View Post

ive been reading more about dual subs and this term came up, stereo subs. something about instead of using the sub out, you tap into the main left and main right signal for the subwoofer. are there benefits or negatives to doing it this way? thanks



You need decent R & L main speakers in order to attempt that. Typical smallish 2 way speakers will not cut it unless you use an external crossover for the main speakers. Larger R & L main speakers will handle bass fine without the use of an external crossover being applied to them.

I run stereo bass, but that applies only for frequencies above the 50 Hz area. Single location bass for frequencies below 50 Hz.

Yes, you can tell the difference in setups if and when there is stereo bass on the track.
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post #5 of 76 Old 10-17-2012, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgrotel View Post

ive been reading more about dual subs and this term came up, stereo subs. something about instead of using the sub out, you tap into the main left and main right signal for the subwoofer. are there benefits or negatives to doing it this way? thanks

This is probably the most currently talked about paper re: multiple subs.

http://www.aes.org/e-lib/download.cfm?ID=13680&name=harman

It basically recommends a particular physical configuration of 4 subs that it claims goes some distance towards maintaining a uniform distribution of bass in the room.



That is wide of the mark. That is not a setup for stereo bass.
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post #6 of 76 Old 10-17-2012, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Imo using bass management is wuperior. Unless your head is ten feetvwide you cannot really hear stereo bass and the
advsntsges which mostly relate to minimizing peaks and nulls work just fine eith mono subs.



That setup still uses bass management.
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post #7 of 76 Old 10-17-2012, 09:11 PM
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Stereo subs can minimize localization, so the bass doesn't sound like it's coming from one spot in the room. It can also help smooth out frequency response in your room, and the less need for equalization means more even performance for the subs range, especially at higher output levels. It also helps to raise headroom a bit. This also dramatically lowers distortion since the woofers are only pulling out half the excursion that they normally would.
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post #8 of 76 Old 10-17-2012, 09:19 PM
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There's very little stereo content out there for the low end, nor is it easy to distinguish for most of our ears. Usually mixed the same into recordings between right/left channels. If you're fanatic about reproducing even that amount of available content accurately, go for it. Dual or multiple subs on the other hand have benefits, but not because they have two distinctly different recorded l/r content....

"I realize that somebody playing free music isn't as commercial as a hamburger stand. But is it because you can eat a hamburger and hold it in your hand and you can't do that with music? Is it too free to control?" - Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) discussing commercial success in the music biz


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post #9 of 76 Old 10-17-2012, 10:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, I think if I get another sub I'll just split the sub out and be done with it, sounds too complicated. Lol
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post #10 of 76 Old 10-17-2012, 10:32 PM - Thread Starter
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I do have front towers, pioneer FS51's to be exact but no equalization other than audyssey. Would it be worth it to try it?
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post #11 of 76 Old 10-17-2012, 10:41 PM
 
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Study the concept of flanking subs, aka helper woofers:
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post #12 of 76 Old 10-17-2012, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgrotel View Post

I do have front towers, pioneer FS51's to be exact but no equalization other than audyssey. Would it be worth it to try it?

What version of Audyssey? What AVR? What subs? They don't all do bass eq...and there are different versions of Audyssey that do do bass eq, but not all the same. Many AVRs do not offer stereo sub output either. A sub channel is normally not l/r either as it's not normally stereo.

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post #13 of 76 Old 10-17-2012, 11:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Denon 2112, is it even an option for me? I know it EQ's subs, just don't know to what extent
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post #14 of 76 Old 10-18-2012, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

That is wide of the mark. That is not a setup for stereo bass.

Exactly. It's an attempt to get the discussion going in a far more productive direction.

Whether or not stereo subs make any sense at all is a ongoing controversy. Whether or not more than one subwoofer can be used profitably in most rooms is far less of a controversy.

I'll bet that you've either never read or never understood the paper I've cited, even though its a free download.

http://www.aes.org/e-lib/download.cfm?ID=13680&name=harman

Open your mind!
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post #15 of 76 Old 10-18-2012, 06:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Parham View Post

Study the concept of flanking subs, aka helper woofers:

Good references. The first one starts as follows:

"When I first considered the multisub approach, it was prompted by papers written by Todd Welti. He did several tests that showed in-room amplitude response could be made smoother using multiple subs, and gave specific guidance about placement. His favored locations for subwoofers in a rectangular room were to use a sub at each wall midpoint (four subs total), a sub at each room corner (four subs total) or a sub at opposite wall midpoints (two subs total). The idea is to counter self-interference from boundary reflections in the modal region using multiple sources to smooth the sound field. Where one sub and its reflection cancel each other out, another sub in a different location can fill it in."

The paper I just got nailed for citing: http://www.aes.org/e-lib/download.cfm?ID=13680&name=harman is by none other than...

Todd Welti. It lays out the detailed thinking behind the first paragraph of your first reference.

The second reference is kinda hand-wavy for me, and actually sorta contradicts your first reference. I'm impressed with it as an alternative viewpoint but I'm not going to give it the credibility that the far more scientific and worked out Welti paper provides.

Yup, both of these references go in a different direction than stereo subwoofers. Actual stereo subwoofers are the hobby horse of David Griesinger (ex-Lexicon). More about and from him can be found here: http://www.davidgriesinger.com/

My quick summary of this issue is that stereo bass fails big time because there really isn't a lot of program material that can be construed to exploit it. Speaking as a professional recordist, I'll suggest that the lack of program material with strong difference signals in the low bass traces back to those nasty fundamental laws of physics and general recording practices. Griesinger seems to accept this and his retort is a methodology for synthesizing bass signals that aren't mono. I'm the kind of purist who says that if you have to synthesize it, you should really think twice about it.

The multi-woofer advocates are taking a completely different tack. They observe that uniform bass response throughout a listening room is both desirable if you don't listen all by yourself, and also elusive. Multiple woofers per Welti can provide definate and audible performance benefits in this area.
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post #16 of 76 Old 10-18-2012, 07:49 AM - Thread Starter
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there is no doubt that getting a second sub will benefit the sound, and i also get that placement plays a part as well, but i was hoping to learn more about stereo subs specifically in this thread. i will read up more on griesinger and see if that gets me what im after. thanks.
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post #17 of 76 Old 10-18-2012, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

This is probably the most currently talked about paper re: multiple subs. http://www.aes.org/e-lib/download.cfm?ID=13680&name=harman
It basically recommends a particular physical configuration of 4 subs that it claims goes some distance towards maintaining a uniform distribution of bass in the room.

Yes you can also read Dr. Tooles Book
Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms, Floyd Toole (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reproduction-Acoustics-Psychoacoustics-Loudspeakers/dp/0240520092/ref=la_B001JS2MQ2_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1350569295&sr=1-1
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post #18 of 76 Old 10-18-2012, 08:13 AM
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Also Master Handbook of Acoustics, F. Alton Everest
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post #19 of 76 Old 10-18-2012, 08:21 AM - Thread Starter
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are these books specifically targeting stereo subs? i understand the advantages of sub placement and multiple subs, but am only looking for more info on stereo subs only, thanks.
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post #20 of 76 Old 10-18-2012, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

That is wide of the mark. That is not a setup for stereo bass.

Exactly. It's an attempt to get the discussion going in a far more productive direction.



The OP may not be interested in your idea of what you consider as "a far more productive direction".



Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

That is wide of the mark. That is not a setup for stereo bass.


Whether or not stereo subs make any sense at all is a ongoing controversy. Whether or not more than one subwoofer can be used profitably in most rooms is far less of a controversy.



Stereo subwoofers is a side issue.

Stereo bass is more on topic. Stereo bass can involve more than 2 channels.



Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

That is wide of the mark. That is not a setup for stereo bass.


I'll bet that you've either never read or never understood the paper I've cited, even though its a free download.

http://www.aes.org/e-lib/download.cfm?ID=13680&name=harman

Open your mind!



I read that years ago.
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post #21 of 76 Old 10-18-2012, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Parham View Post

Study the concept of flanking subs, aka helper woofers:


My quick summary of this issue is that stereo bass fails big time because there really isn't a lot of program material that can be construed to exploit it. Speaking as a professional recordist, I'll suggest that the lack of program material with strong difference signals in the low bass traces back to those nasty fundamental laws of physics and general recording practices. Griesinger seems to accept this and his retort is a methodology for synthesizing bass signals that aren't mono. I'm the kind of purist who says that if you have to synthesize it, you should really think twice about it.

The multi-woofer advocates are taking a completely different tack. They observe that uniform bass response throughout a listening room is both desirable if you don't listen all by yourself, and also elusive. Multiple woofers per Welti can provide definate and audible performance benefits in this area.



There are plenty of movies that use "stereo bass". Maybe you missed the transition in mixing style. Most people use a mono bass setup with "smallish" main speakers, so they would be oblivious to the difference in mixing methods.

As far as multiple dedicated subwoofers being placed around a typical residential room, that is pretty much a non-starter for most non-dedicated A/V rooms. Multi-woofers does not require multi-subwoofers!
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post #22 of 76 Old 10-18-2012, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

There are plenty of movies that use "stereo bass". Maybe you missed the transition in mixing style.

Unsupported assertion noted.
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post #23 of 76 Old 10-18-2012, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

The OP may not be interested in your idea of what you consider as "a far more productive direction".
Stereo subwoofers is a side issue.
Stereo bass is more on topic. Stereo bass can involve more than 2 channels.
I read that years ago.

Apparently you have nothing with substance to say about it. Or, were your comments on some forum back then?
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post #24 of 76 Old 10-18-2012, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgrotel View Post

are these books specifically targeting stereo subs? i understand the advantages of sub placement and multiple subs, but am only looking for more info on stereo subs only, thanks.

I just searched for "stereo bass list".

Searching for "20 Hz bass" is a lot more interesting... ;-)

I'd say that the absence of a well-documented list of recordings with true and genuine stereo bass may indicate something relevant.

As I said before, the response to the apparent lack of recordings with stereo bass was a form of synthesis. That level of desperation says something, too.

Did I miss something else?
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post #25 of 76 Old 10-18-2012, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
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rather than have this turn into a pissing contest, here is a picture of my room before i blacked out the window and moved furniture in. a second sub would more than likely go inbetween the tv and the front right speaker. does anyone know if just splitting the sub out or using stereo subs would be better? when i do run audyssey, i was planning on setting the front left and right speakers to small and let the sub(s) handle the lower frequencys, but if i do stereo subs, then i probably have to leave those front speakers set to large, is this correct?

IMG_9507.jpg
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post #26 of 76 Old 10-18-2012, 09:34 AM
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From an Audyssey perspective, unless you have XT32 version you will probably get better room response splitting your subwoofer output.  That is because in MultEQ and MultEQ XT there is more correction power in the subwoofer than the main speakers, so the more you run through the sub the better correction Audyssey can do.

 

But you can go ahead and try it both ways.  I have.  Started with split sub out, went to stereo subs, and back to split on sub out....at least until I upgrade to XT32.

 

Add if you try both, take measurements so you can see what is going on to help explain why one sounds better/different.  

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post #27 of 76 Old 10-18-2012, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
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ok, i have multEQ XT so i will just split the sub out, thanks.
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post #28 of 76 Old 10-18-2012, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

This is probably the most currently talked about paper re: multiple subs.

It basically recommends a particular physical configuration of 4 subs that it claims goes some distance towards maintaining a uniform distribution of bass in the room.

A quad subwoofer setup is the only way to go. smile.gif

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post #29 of 76 Old 10-18-2012, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

The OP may not be interested in your idea of what you consider as "a far more productive direction".
Stereo subwoofers is a side issue.
Stereo bass is more on topic. Stereo bass can involve more than 2 channels.
I read that years ago.

Apparently you have nothing with substance to say about it. Or, were your comments on some forum back then?


and

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

There are plenty of movies that use "stereo bass". Maybe you missed the transition in mixing style.

Unsupported assertion noted.


Yup, maybe you can even prove your point. Show me proof of even one single movie that you have taken a good look at as far as mixing is concerned that will prove your point.


I have looked at more than a few movie soundtracks in detail. Below is a link to one evaluation that I posted on AVS that was not evaluating stereo bass, but you can see stereo bass if you look for it. Posters on that thread do not like to see breakdowns of single channel information because "they use bass managment" and it does not apply to them. The fact that movie mixers do not use bass management does not matter.


http://www.avsforum.com/t/1333462/the-new-master-list-of-bass-in-movies-with-frequency-charts/2370#post_21555729


There are better samples of stereo bass in movies, but the samples are no longer available to be seen on AVS.
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post #30 of 76 Old 10-18-2012, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgrotel View Post

rather than have this turn into a pissing contest, here is a picture of my room before i blacked out the window and moved furniture in. a second sub would more than likely go inbetween the tv and the front right speaker. does anyone know if just splitting the sub out or using stereo subs would be better? when i do run audyssey, i was planning on setting the front left and right speakers to small and let the sub(s) handle the lower frequencys, but if i do stereo subs, then i probably have to leave those front speakers set to large, is this correct?
IMG_9507.jpg

First off, the Harman paper seems to give some insight, even for stereo bass.

To summarize they tested the following configuations:



The dots are the seating locations and the numbers represent subwoofer locations. The x and y coordinates in the pictures below are room dimensions.

From those configurations they found the following results for uniformity of sound field over 16 seating positions for the best speaker configurations:



The configurations with the least shading are the most desirable.

I don't know why you would use your mains in large mode unless you tried to use them to approximate some of the 4 subwoofer configurations.
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