Northeast October 20th GTG Results thread - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 234 Old 10-24-2012, 08:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post

Great thread....not to sure about seeing Stewie peaking out of that guy's pants..eek.gif

LOL, I saw that picture originally and was wondering how long it would be before someone commented. I guess it's still better than viewing my buttcrack??tongue.gif
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post #92 of 234 Old 10-24-2012, 08:58 AM
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there is another one with even more of him poping out, i noticed it on the camera and laughed for a good 5 min when i realized what it was
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post #93 of 234 Old 10-24-2012, 09:25 AM - Thread Starter
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there is another one with even more of him poping out, i noticed it on the camera and laughed for a good 5 min when i realized what it was

The downside of being a powerlifter with larger legs than normal is the need to buy pants that are a few sizes larger than needed vs. waist size. This leads to an exposed "stewie" on a regular basis since my parts are always falling down, lol. biggrin.gif I also LOL'd pretty good when I saw that pic.
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post #94 of 234 Old 10-24-2012, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

LOL, I saw that picture originally and was wondering how long it would be before someone commented. I guess it's still better than viewing my buttcrack??tongue.gif

I saw that before while at work and pissed myself laughing and forgot to post about it.....it happens to the best of us mate lol.
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post #95 of 234 Old 10-24-2012, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post


Dual Captivators in purple and triple Submersives in green.

How much different did these 2 sub systems sound? Even taking infrasonics and the whole sealed/ported issue out of the discussion, that's a 12 dB difference at 20 Hz. They had to *sound* completely different. Yet no one mentioned a big difference in their listening impressions. Or, were you all just deaf by that point? biggrin.gif

Craig

After the pummeling we received from handing the remote to popalock and Gorilla83 I elected to use the PGM2 mode and not get quite so silly with the volume, as I don't enjoy hearing everything clip and distort. While viscerally impressive, the LMS's would have sounded much more detailed with a bigger amp or at a lower volume where the clip lights were not doubling as a laser beam. ;-) We often heard the Crown clip and grumble when we pushed the Captivators. We could have went louder, but the amp starts putting on the brakes and you start reaching for the earplugs when we were well PAST reference.

Also remember that when you drop 6-10dB at the bottom end, you can play a bit louder as you are using less overall power at the same volume setting. This makes for more of the loud upper bass. Lastly, remember the subs were ~8dB louder than the CAT-8Cs, so this made for a really strong midbass balance with the response curves you see posted. Even with this very different setup than the midbass enhanced curves with drooping low end, the SubMersives remained extremely composed to rather silly levels with kick-drums and synthesized bass lines eliciting "oh yeah" responses from many listeners.

My own opinion was that they all did sound different, with some sounding more similar, but differences came to light quickly when pushed hard on the movies or if we revisited the music clips as we did on the last few. In the first music pass at moderate level the differences in frequency response and any limits of VLF output at that playback level were the primary differentiators. When pushed you quickly start to hear how the sub changes character when driven hard, and at higher level it's easier to identify differences down low. I know for many these were playback levels they had never experienced or even considered, and a little acclimation definitely helps in getting past the shock and focusing again on the details.

The whole day was a blast with a great group of guys who all share a common passion if not addiction. I didn't hear a single product that sounded "weak" in context of what each was. Hopefully it's not the last gathering of this group!

A big thanks again to Gorilla83 for opening up your home to all these like minded addicts! cool.gif

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post #96 of 234 Old 10-24-2012, 01:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the input Mark. It was great meeting you face to face as well. Look forward to seeing you again at the next event. Maybe next time we can end early enough that I can join you guys at Hooters. wink.gif

Guys - I was approached by a moderator of the forum for some input on the event. He wound up running a snipit of our even on the AVS home page. Check it out!

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post #97 of 234 Old 10-24-2012, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Guys - I was approached by a moderator of the forum for some input on the event. He wound up running a snipit of our even on the AVS home page. Check it out!
avs homepage link to shootout.JPG 104k .JPG file

You hit the big time ape man! biggrin.gif
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post #98 of 234 Old 10-24-2012, 04:32 PM - Thread Starter
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So I got a PM from Jeff wondering what was going on with the Caps FR / Omnimic curve. I honestly didn't even notice it until he pointed it out. We both agreed such an early rolloff was NOT characteristic of their normal performance. I did some sweeps tonight right around the same level. I'll be damned with the curves looked a LOT better, and what I was used to seeing. I did some experimenting and by accident I was able to replicate a similar type curve by applying a HPF only to one channel, causing a phase issue and a rolloff starting around 25hz. frown.gif Probably my bad, ugh. frown.gif This is just an assumption but as you can see something was definitely going on. BTW the mic and subwoofers were in the EXACT same position as during the GTG.

Here were my findings, 1/24 smoothing applied:

15hz tune vs. 20hz tune NO HPF

20hztunevs15hztunenoHPF.jpg

15hz tune with 14hz HPF vs. 20hz tune 19hz HPF
20hztunevs15hztunewithHPF.jpg
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post #99 of 234 Old 10-24-2012, 05:02 PM
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redo! biggrin.gif

I was engaged in the pm exchange too and until you found this in retesting I couldn't understand how we could have possibly messed that up. Now it makes sense. An hpf on one channel but not the other effectively reverses phase and makes the two subwoofers fight near the hpf....halving the output of a single subwoofer. Its like opposing polarity (swapping positive and negative terminals on one sub but not the other) as the hpf frequency point is neared...

darn....

ouch to the guys who looked at the frequency response and thumbed their noses. eek.gifcool.gif


out of curiosity Andrew would you take one more graph using 15hz port tune and 17hz hpf using 1/12 smoothing and matching 50 hz to 90dB when you have the chance.... crossover set identically to meet day (80 hz right?)and mains unplugged when you capture. no rush on the request, but it'd be fun to post an apples to apples comparison of what should have been the cap pairs frequency response that day.


BTW how can we tell if this happened on the LMS-5400 with the 10hz hpf applied of if it happened on the dual dayton DIY subs that started with a 14hz hpf, but moved to 10hz hpf during the 5hz to 100hz sine wave clip.

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post #100 of 234 Old 10-24-2012, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

darn....
ouch to the guys who looked at the frequency response and thumbed their noses. eek.gifcool.gif
I hope I didn't come across that way. I have NO DOUBT the Cap is a great sub. I just noticed that the measurement didn't seem to match the listening impressions and asked if they sounded different.

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post #101 of 234 Old 10-24-2012, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

So I got a PM from Jeff wondering what was going on with the Caps FR / Omnimic curve. I honestly didn't even notice it until he pointed it out. We both agreed such an early rolloff was NOT characteristic of their normal performance. I did some sweeps tonight right around the same level. I'll be damned with the curves looked a LOT better, and what I was used to seeing. I did some experimenting and by accident I was able to replicate a similar type curve by applying a HPF only to one channel, causing a phase issue and a rolloff starting around 25hz. frown.gif Probably my bad, ugh. frown.gif This is just an assumption but as you can see something was definitely going on. BTW the mic and subwoofers were in the EXACT same position as during the GTG.
Here were my findings, 1/24 smoothing applied:

15hz tune vs. 20hz tune NO HPF
20hztunevs15hztunenoHPF.jpg
15hz tune with 14hz HPF vs. 20hz tune 19hz HPF
20hztunevs15hztunewithHPF.jpg

The Caps on the market today do not have a tune option, correct? Isn't it just a 17.5hz tune, or is a plug an option to tune it lower?

 

Archaea, do your caps have a 20hz tune? Just trying to get the tuning difference straight between different production models...

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post #102 of 234 Old 10-24-2012, 06:58 PM
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I have the 2011 model which is a native 20hz tune with a 15hz tune option using one port plug.

same as gorilla83...


the new caps use 50% longer ports and have a 17.5hz tune. they have no official alternate tune.

The 2012 design should be more advantageous for home theater use. one port plugged on the 2011 models can introduce port noise at absurd volumes.

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post #103 of 234 Old 10-25-2012, 07:45 AM
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Well if it truly was a hpf on one channel and not the other, guess that was a blunder on my part. I apologize.
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post #104 of 234 Old 10-25-2012, 07:49 AM
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Two things that surprise me.. they still sounded great and the one without the HPF lived through the torture.
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post #105 of 234 Old 10-25-2012, 07:53 AM
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So are we saying that because of this over site, the caps were a bit hamstrung and might have even done better (i.e played lower and louder?). If so, that would be impressive considering the numbers that were achieved from them during the tests

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post #106 of 234 Old 10-25-2012, 08:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rush2049 View Post

Well if it truly was a hpf on one channel and not the other, guess that was a blunder on my part. I apologize.

Honestly I can't say for sure what the issue was, so we'll leave it at that. Definitely not your fault, if anything I should be looking over my own setup!
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Two things that surprise me.. they still sounded great and the one without the HPF lived through the torture.

One thing I can say for sure is that these subs are RUGGED. They've been tortured over the last year with 2500ish watts going into each of them during various demos and they keep coming back for more. With less power like an EP4000 you really don't even need the HPF.
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So are we saying that because of this over site, the caps were a bit hamstrung and might have even done better (i.e played lower and louder?). If so, that would be impressive considering the numbers that were achieved from them during the tests

I don't know if they would have played any louder, but it's likely they would have sounded much better to our ears during the standardized volume section. Completely my fault but I'm sure they will get their chance to shine at the next event.
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post #107 of 234 Old 10-25-2012, 08:29 AM
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I don't know if they would have played any louder, but it's likely they would have sounded much better to our ears during the standardized volume section. Completely my fault but I'm sure they will get their chance to shine at the next event.
It was a long day. I understand fully that these things happen. But if they would have sounded better, that would be really impressive because they already sounded very good to me.

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post #108 of 234 Old 10-25-2012, 09:48 AM
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Just letting everyone know I added some photos to my post on page 1. (I still have to write up something for the three big setups, I'll get to it)
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post #109 of 234 Old 10-25-2012, 11:36 AM
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This sounds like a pretty serious GTG. Subscribed.

I know this was a sub shootout, but those JTR Neosis look niiice...

I checked the specs on them and they seem like real monsters. I wonder how they compare to commercial offerings such as the JBL 4722 or the Klipsch Jubilee.

Can anyone comment?
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post #110 of 234 Old 10-25-2012, 11:41 AM
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Seaton Catalyst 8C
8107681534_8227da2b46_o.jpg
A great pair. They are certainly did not let down at all for any of the subwoofers being played. We did stress the limits of them when we started going +8 over reference (hitting the amp's limits on the woofer) which made for a few interesting pops, but that's what the 12C's are for I am told.
How far back from the Cat 8's was the mic during calibration (ie: seating distance from them), and what crossover frequency was used with them. I'm a little surprised to hear (no pun intended) that they were clipping at 8dB over reference.
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post #111 of 234 Old 10-25-2012, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rush2049 View Post

A great pair. They are certainly did not let down at all for any of the subwoofers being played. We did stress the limits of them when we started going +8 over reference (hitting the amp's limits on the woofer) which made for a few interesting pops, but that's what the 12C's are for I am told.
How far back from the Cat 8's was the mic during calibration (ie: seating distance from them), and what crossover frequency was used with them. I'm a little surprised to hear (no pun intended) that they were clipping at 8dB over reference.

Once papalock got to the volume control the levels were ranging from +6 to +11 (I had earplugs in). The room and main seating location had some acoustic limitations which probably made things tougher. We just set the speakers in place and set the levels with internal test tones. When we looked at some measurements early in the day, we saw there was a big depression in the upper midrange which probably played into the levels which were set, but let's also be realistic. Even with the 80Hz crossover, the mic was maybe 16' back in the room which was fairly narrow and had minimal treatment. After all the comparisons were done I had some time to sit and listen and found that the sound was greatly improved in clarity about 3' forward of the main couch location where the measurements were taken.

If you figure simple distance would require 12-14dB more than 1m, and we played back well over reference, I'm not surprised at all that we hit a few limits at these arguably painful levels, at least in the fairly reflective room we were listening in. The mid and/or tweeter amps were also likely pushing their limits clipping at that point. The wider baffle and greater power of the 12C is for those who need that sort of playback level. Of course I've also heard the '8C's play subjectively louder in larger rooms, and remember we had TONS of subwoofer capability. Most could never touch those sorts of playback levels without the subwoofers crying mercy well before.

When I was at the volume control with the SubMersive HP trio, the 8C's were working hard, but stayed well behaved at some eye-popping levels, all near or above reference level. Remember that with ANY speaker, if you keep bumping another 3-6dB, any speaker/subwoofer will be over driven.

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post #112 of 234 Old 10-25-2012, 10:50 PM
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off-topic, but why would you use VLC on an HTPC? I didn't think it could even do DTS-HD Master Audio.

HTPC: I3 2100, Radeon 6950.
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post #113 of 234 Old 10-25-2012, 10:55 PM
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Even with the 80Hz crossover, the mic was maybe 16' back in the room which was fairly narrow and had minimal treatment.
Thanks for the reply Mark. I didn't realize the main seating position was so far from the speakers.
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post #114 of 234 Old 10-26-2012, 01:57 AM
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How far back from the Cat 8's was the mic during calibration (ie: seating distance from them), and what crossover frequency was used with them. I'm a little surprised to hear (no pun intended) that they were clipping at 8dB over reference.

Not sure if this was stated earlier but...

-8 or -10 on the dial was reference, so +8 on the dial was 16-18dbs over reference. The 8c's performed very very well.
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post #115 of 234 Old 10-26-2012, 07:01 AM
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Not sure if this was stated earlier but...
-8 or -10 on the dial was reference, so +8 on the dial was 16-18dbs over reference. The 8c's performed very very well.
Either way thanks for bringing it to my attention.
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post #116 of 234 Old 10-26-2012, 07:23 AM
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Not sure if this was stated earlier but...
-8 or -10 on the dial was reference, so +8 on the dial was 16-18dbs over reference. The 8c's performed very very well.

Holy. Cow. In a room....did everyone feel normal the next day? smile.gif
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post #117 of 234 Old 10-26-2012, 07:46 AM
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Holy. Cow. In a room....did everyone feel normal the next day? smile.gif

Define "normal"... tongue.gif

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post #118 of 234 Old 10-26-2012, 09:31 AM
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I was wearing ear plugs for the heaviest part of the test. I took the right one out just to see what it like. Starting on Sun, I was in pain and it is just about gone now. It was quite intense, If I ever go to one of these events again, the ear plugs are staying in for the entire test when the heavy hitters come up.

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post #119 of 234 Old 10-26-2012, 10:33 AM
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+ 18 over REF??? confused.gif This would be peaks from the mains of about 120dB at the seats from the individual speakers. That type of real level in the midrange -lower treble is BRUTAL on the ears. Subs you'd be talking about 130-135dB peaks with them run flat. Weren't they set really hot as well?

How in the world could either the subs or the speakers be not completely over driven at the listening levels claimed? I just don't see it being possible. What was this an SPL competition?
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post #120 of 234 Old 10-26-2012, 10:39 AM
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I'm not sure where that number came from. As close as any un-EQ'd setting really is just placed in a room, the speakers ended up 3dB low, and the subs were 8dB hotter than the speakers per internal test signal. This means at +3dB the speakers were at reference, and the subs would be +8dB.

We first started with the main speakers 2dB lower, but I raised them as IMO it was too bass heavy to provide much detail with the -15dB music listening level for the first pass.

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