Northeast October 20th GTG Results thread - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 234 Old 11-05-2012, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I was just saying that a ported 18 with 30 mm of x-max will have a big advantage at or near tune compared to a sealed 18 or 15's at the same frequency. How can a sub that does not go as low have more tactile feeling? The answer is either distortion below tune or more output where the bass exists, I would think it is the latter of the two. BTW, sealed and ported subs are built for different reasons and comparing the two is very difficult.

Understood, I agree on all fronts.

My one question would be: Does your definition of "tactical feeling" include the SPF provided by Caps, or any other ported sub?

I love the "tacticle feeling" from air flow of a ported sub. An explosion happens and you are greeted with a breeze., almost as if you were right there experiencing the pressure wave in person. A tacticle feeling a sealed sub can't reproduce.
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post #182 of 234 Old 11-05-2012, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Luke - When pushing some clips at full tilt there were definitely some complaints from the drivers and I had to back them down. They may or may not have been audible from all points of the room, but I did have to back the volume down at times. Granted these were at or above reference at this point, but there were a few unwelcome noises for sure.
Again regarding the HPF being engaged on only one channel - like I said before this was just my *assumption* as to why the curve was looking drastically different. The next day when playing around this was the only explanation I could come up with - this may or may not have been the culprit of the issue. I wanted this to be clear for the group as we didn't have any of the settings saved to review post-event so all we can do is guess at this point. frown.gif
As far as power below 20hz - I don't own any passive sealed subs to test the ultra lows, but I can tell you I've run sweeps up to 110+db with my caps and solid extension to 13-15hz. This includes some room gain of course but it does not appear to have a built in HPF at this point. At 10hz? Maybe, and I'll probably find out once I build something sealed.
Hope this helps clarify some things.

Thanks for that. I am always just wondering the "why?" behind perceived results. Mistakes happen when you have a huge one day undertaking such as this, I think there would have been a large difference in the sound had the hpf's been setup correctly. Is it possible that the hpf issue was on the lms and dayton's as well? Upon looking back now you guys stated that the different box sized lms's measured pretty even. Could it have been that the hpf was on the larger enclosure therefore making them appear to roll off similar?
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post #183 of 234 Old 11-05-2012, 10:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by enterthedragon View Post

That's a whole other can of worms I'm going to enjoy watching some debate on...lol

Like it or not, for the large majority of us at these events price is likely to be a major consideration when it comes time to purchase. Heck, if it weren't we'd all have massive theaters with 10x Terraform XLs. biggrin.gif


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post #184 of 234 Old 11-05-2012, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Like it or not, for the large majority of us at these events price is likely to be a major consideration when it comes time to purchase. Heck, if it weren't we'd all have massive theaters with 10x Terraform XLs. biggrin.gif

I agree price is a huge factor for everone, as it should be...

That sounds like it could start a real flame war.

From a price standpoint, it appears as though the LMS pair would be more comparable to a single Submersive vs. a 1 to 1 comparison. ($2,200 vs $2,600)

Would that be a fair comparison?

Would $6,600 of DIY LMS subs/amps be a fair comparison to 3 Submersives?

Would $6,600 of DIY Dayton HO 18's and amps be a fair comparison to 3 Submersives?

It opens up the door to a whole new world of if/but/then scenarios...
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post #185 of 234 Old 11-05-2012, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by enterthedragon View Post

Would $6,600 of DIY Dayton HO 18's and amps be a fair comparison to 3 Submersives?
It opens up the door to a whole new world of if/but/then scenarios...
$6600 can buy you a CRAP LOAD of Dayton HO's! lol

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post #186 of 234 Old 11-05-2012, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Like it or not, for the large majority of us at these events price is likely to be a major consideration when it comes time to purchase. Heck, if it weren't we'd all have massive theaters with 10x Terraform XLs. biggrin.gif

i imagin some of us would have these lining the walls (assuming it worked)



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post #187 of 234 Old 11-05-2012, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by enterthedragon View Post

Understood, I agree on all fronts.
My one question would be: Does your definition of "tactical feeling" include the SPF provided by Caps, or any other ported sub?
I love the "tacticle feeling" from air flow of a ported sub. An explosion happens and you are greeted with a breeze., almost as if you were right there experiencing the pressure wave in person. A tacticle feeling a sealed sub can't reproduce.

I feel the pressure wave from my sealed subs so I don't agree with the sealed subs can't reproduce. A 20hz signal is the same for a ported or sealed sub. If one is producing a pressure wave then it has to do with spl. Whether a port or a driver they both move air.
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post #188 of 234 Old 11-05-2012, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I feel the pressure wave from my sealed subs
Same here. For example on TIH "fight scene" when punches are thrown and steps are taken, you feel the waves of bass just hit you. cool.gif

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post #189 of 234 Old 11-05-2012, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enterthedragon View Post

Would $6,600 of DIY LMS subs/amps be a fair comparison to 3 Submersives?
Would $6,600 of DIY Dayton HO 18's and amps be a fair comparison to 3 Submersives?
It opens up the door to a whole new world of if/but/then scenarios...

Be sure to included amplifiers that are compareable in quality to those Seaton and myself use.
Something like the Crown IT9000 which retails for $7413.68

Or maybe some of the Lab Gruppens.
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post #190 of 234 Old 11-05-2012, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I feel the pressure wave from my sealed subs so I don't agree with the sealed subs can't reproduce. A 20hz signal is the same for a ported or sealed sub. If one is producing a pressure wave then it has to do with spl. Whether a port or a driver they both move air.

Sounds intense. I do not doubt you in the least. I'm no where near the level of some of you guys. So, I'm just going off of my experience. I've experienced reference playback @ 20Hz from some decent ported and sealed applications. I just thought the feeling of an air conditioner from the port was a cool tactical feeling. I just assumed the flow of air would be much more pronounced (all other things being equal) in ported vs sealed setup.

I don't know what you have specifically, but put your sealed sub in an optimal ported enclosure and the airflow in the room will be more pronounced, agreed?

I'm indifferent to the ongoing sealed vs ported debate as I like them both.

What were we debating again?
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post #191 of 234 Old 11-05-2012, 12:11 PM
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On the topic of tactile feeling with sealed subs: I sit about 9 feet away from my Cap S2, and in the FOTP plane crash scene, where the plane flips a few times, the tactile feeling is so intense (at -15db) that I literally felt that the whole room is flipping. Those dual 18" drivers can move some serious air!
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post #192 of 234 Old 11-05-2012, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post

Be sure to included amplifiers that are compareable in quality to those Seaton and myself use.
Something like the Crown IT9000 which retails for $7413.68
Or maybe some of the Lab Gruppens.

Quality amplifier? Can one quantify amplifier "quality?" Historical realibility or some other metric?

Based on this logic, you are already in the hole before you start.

What would be the point of going DIY?
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post #193 of 234 Old 11-05-2012, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

$6600 can buy you a CRAP LOAD of Dayton HO's! lol

See my thread in the DIY section, LOL. biggrin.gif


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post #194 of 234 Old 11-05-2012, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by enterthedragon View Post

Sounds intense. I do not doubt you in the least. I'm no where near the level of some of you guys. So, I'm just going off of my experience. I've experienced reference playback @ 20Hz from some decent ported and sealed applications. I just thought the feeling of an air conditioner from the port was a cool tactical feeling. I just assumed the flow of air would be much more pronounced (all other things being equal) in ported vs sealed setup.
I don't know what you have specifically, but put your sealed sub in an optimal ported enclosure and the airflow in the room will be more pronounced, agreed?
I'm indifferent to the ongoing sealed vs ported debate as I like them both.
What were we debating again?

I am just trying to give a couple reasons why the caps would have more tactile feeling. I am guessing it is spl or distortion and distortion can lead to more spl. With a ported sub anything below the tune is mostly THD, try measuring a sine wave in room with a ported sub under tune(where it drops off) the THD goes straight up and adds more tactile sensations. I still think the ported Cap is one the best ported subs one can buy. I love the small package, yes it is small for a ported 18. The DTS-10 kit can dig deeper and is another animal when setup right.
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post #195 of 234 Old 11-05-2012, 12:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by logicators View Post

On the topic of tactile feeling with sealed subs: I sit about 9 feet away from my Cap S2, and in the FOTP plane crash scene, where the plane flips a few times, the tactile feeling is so intense (at -15db) that I literally felt that the whole room is flipping. Those dual 18" drivers can move some serious air!

To me - pressure is pressure. A speaker simply converts an electrical signal into acoustical energy. Sealed vs. ported is just a matter of efficiency based tradeoffs at varying frequencies - both have the potential to give plenty of 'tactile' feel.


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post #196 of 234 Old 11-05-2012, 12:51 PM
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To me - pressure is pressure. A speaker simply converts an electrical signal into acoustical energy. Sealed vs. ported is just a matter of efficiency based tradeoffs at varying frequencies - both have the potential to give plenty of 'tactile' feel.

Your picture...

Clearly sitting in front of a ported sub.
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post #197 of 234 Old 11-05-2012, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by enterthedragon View Post

I've experienced reference playback @ 20Hz from some decent ported and sealed applications. I just thought the feeling of an air conditioner from the port was a cool tactical feeling. I just assumed the flow of air would be much more pronounced (all other things being equal) in ported vs sealed setup.

The air would indeed be more pronounced from a ported sub then acoustic suspension because of the port itself. I think you're confusing a sound pressure wave and an air wave. The former can be created by either a sealed or ported sub, while the latter is pretty much relegated to ported. If you're feeling a breeze then it's due to the port.

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post #198 of 234 Old 11-05-2012, 01:32 PM
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The air would indeed be more pronounced from a ported sub then acoustic suspension because of the port itself. I think you're confusing a sound pressure wave and an air wave. The former can be created by either a sealed or ported sub, while the latter is pretty much relegated to ported. If you're feeling a breeze then it's due to the port.

I'm not confusing anything.

SPF = Sound Pressure Flow (air flow)

Maybe I should build up my post count before I throw out random terms I've read without any factual definition. ;-)

I understand the difference between the air flow of a port vs the SPL produced from cone movement.
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post #199 of 234 Old 11-05-2012, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by enterthedragon View Post

Quality amplifier? Can one quantify amplifier "quality?" Historical realibility or some other metric?
Based on this logic, you are already in the hole before you start.
What would be the point of going DIY?

For a free education give a call to a couple amplifier manufactures. Crown is a good one to call because they have several amplifiers with similar specs but varying costs (XTI6000, Itech6000). If you’re interested in what amplifiers are being used on the major tours (amplifiers people trust their pay check on) then you can pick up a copy of FOH (front of house) magazine, they have listed what sound companies are touring with what bands and what equipment they are using. Some of the regularly used amplifiers are the Crown Itech, Powersoft and Lab Gruppen.
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post #200 of 234 Old 11-05-2012, 02:10 PM
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For a free education give a call to a couple amplifier manufactures. Crown is a good one to call because they have several amplifiers with similar specs but varying costs (XTI6000, Itech6000). If you’re interested in what amplifiers are being used on the major tours (amplifiers people trust their pay check on) then you can pick up a copy of FOH (front of house) magazine, they have listed what sound companies are touring with what bands and what equipment they are using. Some of the regularly used amplifiers are the Crown Itech, Powersoft and Lab Gruppen.

So, as incredible as these amps are, it seems as though there would be some better $/per watt amps available from a DIY perspective. Or at least refurbished ones you mentioned for an incredible discount. I mean, 3 Submersives for less than the cost of 3 completed Submersives. You said you use the same amp as Seaton. Are you trying to make a point that to get comparable "quality power" that one would need the likes of a IT9000? If so, I get the point you are indirectlt alluding too. The Submersives offer great bang for the buck from a quality perspective. However, there has to be an amp with comparable output at a price point closee to what it costs YOU, because it's costing no where near $2k+ to power a single Submersive or whatever it is you use the same amp for...
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post #201 of 234 Old 11-05-2012, 02:36 PM
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However, there has to be an amp with comparable output at a price point closee to what it costs YOU, because it's costing no where near $2k+ to power a single Submersive or whatever it is you use the same amp for...

Jeff uses them with these, which are all products he's engineered.

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post #202 of 234 Old 11-05-2012, 02:50 PM
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Jeff uses them with these, which are all products he's engineered.

Hey, nice! Respect for sure!

First time I have seen the prices. It makes sense that they are extremely comparable to the Submersives from a price standpoint.

With that said, I still believe there are plenty of 2400 watt amps (maybe not with DSP) that can provide "quality power" on the cheap... Like well under $1k per amp.

I'm rambling. Bottom-line: $6,600 on amps and drivers from a DIY perspective should trump any commercially available or ID product from a sheer performamce standpoint.
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post #203 of 234 Old 11-05-2012, 02:53 PM
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I agree price is a huge factor for everone, as it should be...
That sounds like it could start a real flame war.


I don't think people get too riled up over DIY LMS 5400 vs JTR/Seaton. Both are great options - with DIY you can save some money and have incredible bass, and with JTR/Seaton you spend more but don't have to worry as much about damaging your sub and having to do some labor.

I haven't seen too many owners on either side bashing the other's decision.


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post #204 of 234 Old 11-05-2012, 03:20 PM
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I don't think people get too riled up over DIY LMS 5400 vs JTR/Seaton. Both are great options - with DIY you can save some money and have incredible bass, and with JTR/Seaton you spend more but don't have to worry as much about damaging your sub and having to do some labor.
I haven't seen too many owners on either side bashing the other's decision.
Well said. And agreed. You really cant go wrong with either of those 3 choices.

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post #205 of 234 Old 11-05-2012, 04:18 PM
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Is it possible that the hpf issue was on the lms and dayton's as well? Upon looking back now you guys stated that the different box sized lms's measured pretty even. Could it have been that the hpf was on the larger enclosure therefore making them appear to roll off similar?


It is possible that the issue existed on the Daytons because that was the first dual sub setup we used a HPF on
It is possible that the issue existed on the LMS for the frequency response capture, but not during the rest of the demo after the standardized music test at 15hz for the Bass I Love you song, because during that song we turned off the HPF as I recorded in my notes -- so that we could try to hear/feel the 7hz note. We did not re-engage, to my recollection. The HPF was disengaged early in the LMS-5400 auditio - before we let them run free!
It is very likely we had the HPF's messed up on the Captivators based on Gorilla's retesting, and the graphed FR.
It is not possible we had the HPF's messed up on the Seaton's because the HPF was turned off for these subs.

Ben, Andrew? Your thoughts on ^ assessment?



BTW Luke! ---
LOL at your 'watching The Voice comment while the singer is being hit with a stick!' in regards to harmonic distortion. I was truly laughing out loud!

but we experienced nothing like that, and from my particular listening position - I didn't hear the caps make a bad noise, I heard them run out of dynamics, but nothing that made me wince. Gorilla says he heard bad noises - I believe him....I just didn't notice them from where I sat.

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post #206 of 234 Old 11-05-2012, 06:59 PM
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Per the port blowing discussion. Sound doesn't travel through the air like wind. http://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/Demos/waves/wavemotion.html

A port that is blowing air at you has become turbulent because it is overloaded.

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post #207 of 234 Old 11-05-2012, 08:00 PM
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It is really too bad that Archaea's subs had all that port noise at high volumes. Otherwise I would probably be a ported fan.

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post #208 of 234 Old 11-05-2012, 08:59 PM
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Greg,

You've never heard my subs chuff.

I'm truly going to take a moment to enjoy it when you pick my ported subs "again" in blind testing at your place over your esteemed sealed subs. You ready for this? cool.gif

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post #209 of 234 Old 11-06-2012, 04:01 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I am just trying to give a couple reasons why the caps would have more tactile feeling. I am guessing it is spl or distortion and distortion can lead to more spl. With a ported sub anything below the tune is mostly THD, try measuring a sine wave in room with a ported sub under tune(where it drops off) the THD goes straight up and adds more tactile sensations. I still think the ported Cap is one the best ported subs one can buy. I love the small package, yes it is small for a ported 18. The DTS-10 kit can dig deeper and is another animal when setup right.

I can't see how any sub at the G2G could have more tactile feel (or anything else, for that matter) than the SM triplets. It was the only system there that had same level at 10 Hz and 100 Hz in its FR. It was also the only system there with higher level 20 Hz than any other frequency in its FR. And, spare me the compression blurb because SM triplets will do reference level low end in that room with its thumb you know where.

G2GComparo.jpg

I think it just became a which sub plays the loudest fest. Nothing wrong with that, but the subjective comparisons are pretty much just describing the huge difference in FRs of the various systems. Certainly the disparity in FR at the seats was beyond a SQ comparison and, as I said and it bears repeating, the SM trips could maintain that FR at reference level without any doubt, giving it a huge advantage over any other system in attendance.

I'm just a bit perplexed as to how it saw 4 times the room gain than any other system. The naked response I have posted is not the boostorama mode, or whatever Seaton calls it, but there isn't that much difference from what I've seen. Mark?
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post #210 of 234 Old 11-06-2012, 05:05 AM
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Guys, I'm attaching the meet's FRD files for anyone interested. You can import them into Omnimic or REW if you want to play around. These are captured using 1/12 smoothing over 10 captures or more, and averaged using Omnimic's automatic averaging functions available under the "advanced" checkbox directly underneath the FR graph. I averaged 10+ captures to ensure little nuances in a unique sweep due to people moving around, or any other random noise didn't change the overall FR graphed for each sub.

PA Meet FRD files.zip 33k .zip file
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File Type: zip PA Meet FRD files.zip (32.7 KB, 17 views)

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