Northeast October 20th GTG Results thread - Page 8 - AVS Forum
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post #211 of 234 Old 11-06-2012, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I can't see how any sub at the G2G could have more tactile feel (or anything else, for that matter) than the SM triplets. It was the only system there that had same level at 10 Hz and 100 Hz in its FR. It was also the only system there with higher level 20 Hz than any other frequency in its FR. And, spare me the compression blurb because SM triplets will do reference level low end in that room with its thumb you know where.
G2GComparo.jpg
I think it just became a which sub plays the loudest fest. Nothing wrong with that, but the subjective comparisons are pretty much just describing the huge difference in FRs of the various systems. Certainly the disparity in FR at the seats was beyond a SQ comparison and, as I said and it bears repeating, the SM trips could maintain that FR at reference level without any doubt, giving it a huge advantage over any other system in attendance.
I'm just a bit perplexed as to how it saw 4 times the room gain than any other system. The naked response I have posted is not the boostorama mode, or whatever Seaton calls it, but there isn't that much difference from what I've seen. Mark?

Thanks bossobass,

I can see very clearly who is the winner smile.gif
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post #212 of 234 Old 11-06-2012, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

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Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post

Is it possible that the hpf issue was on the lms and dayton's as well? Upon looking back now you guys stated that the different box sized lms's measured pretty even. Could it have been that the hpf was on the larger enclosure therefore making them appear to roll off similar?


It is possible that the issue existed on the Daytons because that was the first dual sub setup we used a HPF on
It is possible that the issue existed on the LMS for the frequency response capture, but not during the rest of the demo after the standardized music test at 15hz for the Bass I Love you song, because during that song we turned off the HPF as I recorded in my notes -- so that we could try to hear/feel the 7hz note. We did not re-engage, to my recollection. The HPF was disengaged early in the LMS-5400 auditio - before we let them run free!
It is very likely we had the HPF's messed up on the Captivators based on Gorilla's retesting, and the graphed FR.
It is not possible we had the HPF's messed up on the Seaton's because the HPF was turned off for these subs.

Ben, Andrew? Your thoughts on ^ assessment?

BTW Luke! ---
LOL at your 'watching The Voice comment while the singer is being hit with a stick!' in regards to harmonic distortion. I was truly laughing out loud!

but we experienced nothing like that, and from my particular listening position - I didn't hear the caps make a bad noise, I heard them run out of dynamics, but nothing that made me wince. Gorilla says he heard bad noises - I believe him....I just didn't notice them from where I sat.

Hi guys,

It's a very busy week for me as I wish I had more time to slap some sense into the crazy comments I've been reading. rolleyes.gif ... and I'm not even fully caught up on the thread yet, but seems like lots of second guessing impressions rather than just understanding the many variables involved.

I wasn't downstairs when the Captivators were set up and run, but was watching/helping when the others above were set up. Each time Ben engaged a filter it was verified by your measurements. We had a few cases where at first click it didn't take effect, and we saw that in your measurements. That's was one of the many reasons those measurements were important. As I recall, the Captivator was the ONLY sub using 2 outputs from the MiniDSP. All other internal and external amplifiers were connected with the same, single RCA up front.

The measurements of the sealed Daytons and 2 different LMS subs looked exactly as expected with the larger LMS's response shifted to the left some (so that driver did work harder from the same power input). I wasn't there for the Captivator setup and only got back downstairs after they popped the breaker with the Crown. For those wondering about the Crown popping the breaker, remember that most of the amplifiers used in the subs that day were high efficiency type amplifiers, where the SubMersive's amp is near 95% efficiency, especially when driven hard. The conventional Crown design should be expected to be drawing easily 2x the current from the wall when producing equal power.

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post #213 of 234 Old 11-06-2012, 10:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Mark - You are correct in remembering the only setup that used dual outputs were my Caps and only because everything was wired up in the room in supporting that setup.

And also agreed that the 'old school' Crown is far less efficient than the newer efficient amps like yours and Jeffs. I still think it's a lot of fun for the $$$ investment though. biggrin.gif
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post #214 of 234 Old 11-06-2012, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post

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Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Luke - When pushing some clips at full tilt there were definitely some complaints from the drivers and I had to back them down. They may or may not have been audible from all points of the room, but I did have to back the volume down at times. Granted these were at or above reference at this point, but there were a few unwelcome noises for sure.
Again regarding the HPF being engaged on only one channel - like I said before this was just my *assumption* as to why the curve was looking drastically different. The next day when playing around this was the only explanation I could come up with - this may or may not have been the culprit of the issue. I wanted this to be clear for the group as we didn't have any of the settings saved to review post-event so all we can do is guess at this point. frown.gif
As far as power below 20hz - I don't own any passive sealed subs to test the ultra lows, but I can tell you I've run sweeps up to 110+db with my caps and solid extension to 13-15hz. This includes some room gain of course but it does not appear to have a built in HPF at this point. At 10hz? Maybe, and I'll probably find out once I build something sealed.
Hope this helps clarify some things.

Thanks for that. I am always just wondering the "why?" behind perceived results. Mistakes happen when you have a huge one day undertaking such as this, I think there would have been a large difference in the sound had the hpf's been setup correctly. Is it possible that the hpf issue was on the lms and dayton's as well? Upon looking back now you guys stated that the different box sized lms's measured pretty even. Could it have been that the hpf was on the larger enclosure therefore making them appear to roll off similar?

For the very last bit of insane level listening with the Caps (post breaker-pop), I was next to Andrew and was noticing what was most likely amp clipping or possibly driver complaint (no clacks or anything that offensive). At the levels being played, we would have eventually reached clipping regardless of the settings. popalock's demo was a great example of this with his laser light show of clip lights. wink.gif While this wasn't as big a deal in the first music pass at the matched 50Hz level playback, it should be obvious that the iNuke clipping was a huge impact on what was heard from that point on.

For the comments on the subjective articulation between the SubMersives and Captivators when we let loose on the volume, this was a result of a conscious choice/trade-off I made for the demo. Many still greatly underestimate how important the native (ground plane) frequency response shape is and how it interacts with the room. After myself actually grabbing earplugs during popalock & gorilla83's jam sessions, I decided to use the 15Hz (program 2) vs. the 19Hz response mode. The difference is in fact just a precisely shaped 3.5-4dB shelf which shifts the entire bottom end response to the left on a graph, but as anyone with a SubMersive can attest, this seemingly subtle, but wide band response change is quite audible.

I chose this setting to allow more deep bass energy without as painful a playback level, as I listened through the entire SubMersive demo without earplugs. The combination of the +8dB sub calibration, mostly flat if not rising LF response and peak in the mid 20s makes for a very impressive home theater sound, but will almost always thicken up the sound a bit, especially with the subs so elevated from the mains. This choice of having much more bottom end at the same playback level also means the system will find it's VLF limits at a lower level than if it rolled off much sooner.

So for a case where there was say a 10dB drop in the subwoofer from 50 to 20Hz, the 20Hz level was still only 2dB below the main speakers, and a sub can play subjectively much louder in the 30-80Hz range in such a situation. What you end up with is in fact a large ramp up from the main speakers' level to the 80Hz range, and then a gradual taper back down to the main speakers' level in the upper teens. Yes, that will certainly have a lot of punch and upper bass impact.

Having been to a handful of such comparison efforts now, I really think a much more enlightening event would be some listening experimentation and understanding. I regularly see misunderstandings of what type of behavior or frequency content is responsible for various perceptions, even with the spectrographs posted. "Low and loud" is more often 25-35Hz than the VLF content which is much more responsible for weight, punctuation, scale and shuddering. Most of the more impact sensations happens above 35Hz. I suspect many would benefit greatly from picking a handful of scenes/songs that include different desirable bass qualities and effects and listening to them over and over with all sorts of different filtering applied. In particular listening to maybe 1/2 octave wide ranges at a time or progressively moving a 4th+ order filter lower (eliminating the upper bass octave), and then bottom up.

If you want some good insights into what contributes to different subjective effects go back and read through Keith Yates' Way Down Deep report. Instead of looking for what was the best performer, instead read through Keith's listening comments and then see how that correlates to the measurements and waterfall plots. Keith is a very experienced listener who knows right where to grab at an EQ direction from listening, and while the commentary in that report was intended for the Stereophile Guide to Home Theater crowd, it's worth a thorough reading.

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post #215 of 234 Old 11-06-2012, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Mark - You are correct in remembering the only setup that used dual outputs were my Caps and only because everything was wired up in the room in supporting that setup.

And also agreed that the 'old school' Crown is far less efficient than the newer efficient amps like yours and Jeffs. I still think it's a lot of fun for the $$$ investment though. biggrin.gif

No question on the performance and fun of the heavyweight Crowns. My point was simply that popping a breaker doesn't tell us if it was pushing out more power or less than other subs unless using the exact same amps. More to the point, it could easily pop a breaker at a lower output power than say popalock's clone amp.

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post #216 of 234 Old 11-06-2012, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
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No question on the performance and fun of the heavyweight Crowns. My point was simply that popping a breaker doesn't tell us if it was pushing out more power or less than other subs unless using the exact same amps. More to the point, it could easily pop a breaker at a lower output power than say popalock's clone amp.

Agreed 100% and it's worth pointing this out to the group as that may not have been clear. I'd even say it's very unlikely to draw full power of the Crown with both channels driven for any extended period of time, even on it's dedicated 20A line. tongue.gif
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post #217 of 234 Old 11-12-2012, 05:29 AM - Thread Starter
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post #218 of 234 Old 11-12-2012, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

It is possible that the issue existed on the Daytons because that was the first dual sub setup we used a HPF on
It is possible that the issue existed on the LMS for the frequency response capture, but not during the rest of the demo after the standardized music test at 15hz for the Bass I Love you song, because during that song we turned off the HPF as I recorded in my notes -- so that we could try to hear/feel the 7hz note. We did not re-engage, to my recollection. The HPF was disengaged early in the LMS-5400 auditio - before we let them run free!
It is very likely we had the HPF's messed up on the Captivators based on Gorilla's retesting, and the graphed FR.
It is not possible we had the HPF's messed up on the Seaton's because the HPF was turned off for these subs.
Ben, Andrew? Your thoughts on ^ assessment?

Daytons made a bit of noise on some of the movie content, but they weren't really pushed too hard so it was surprising. (I took pictures when the bad noise was made of faces.... and thats why I remember it). hpf was enabled the whole time and wasn't changed.

LMS had the hpf enabled until the end of the music section. Then it was disabled and we re-listened to some music content, then went through the entire movie section with it disabled. The clipping was so terrible.... sounded bad bad bad.... but no denying it was loud......

hpf's were setup correctly on the cap's, I enabled both channels of the miniDSP ..... which took care of both outputs to the subs.

agreed, the hpf was disabled for the submersives.




Sorry i have been so busy and haven't gotten to posting my last few impressions, and also getting the DVD's out to the few who asked for them. I haven't forgotten.
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post #219 of 234 Old 11-12-2012, 09:34 AM
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^^^ so having different hpf settings on the 2 Caps wasn't an issue?
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post #220 of 234 Old 11-12-2012, 09:54 AM
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^^^ so having different hpf settings on the 2 Caps wasn't an issue?

The same hpf was set for both caps. AKA, not the issue, if there was an issue.....
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post #221 of 234 Old 11-12-2012, 02:55 PM
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I am just trying to give a couple reasons why the caps would have more tactile feeling. I am guessing it is spl or distortion and distortion can lead to more spl. With a ported sub anything below the tune is mostly THD, try measuring a sine wave in room with a ported sub under tune(where it drops off) the THD goes straight up and adds more tactile sensations. I still think the ported Cap is one the best ported subs one can buy. I love the small package, yes it is small for a ported 18. The DTS-10 kit can dig deeper and is another animal when setup right.

I can't see how any sub at the G2G could have more tactile feel (or anything else, for that matter) than the SM triplets. It was the only system there that had same level at 10 Hz and 100 Hz in its FR. It was also the only system there with higher level 20 Hz than any other frequency in its FR. And, spare me the compression blurb because SM triplets will do reference level low end in that room with its thumb you know where.

G2GComparo.jpg

I think it just became a which sub plays the loudest fest. Nothing wrong with that, but the subjective comparisons are pretty much just describing the huge difference in FRs of the various systems. Certainly the disparity in FR at the seats was beyond a SQ comparison and, as I said and it bears repeating, the SM trips could maintain that FR at reference level without any doubt, giving it a huge advantage over any other system in attendance.

I'm just a bit perplexed as to how it saw 4 times the room gain than any other system. The naked response I have posted is not the boostorama mode, or whatever Seaton calls it, but there isn't that much difference from what I've seen. Mark?



Maybe you have made an incorrect assumption of the naked raw response for the SMs. Like you said, room gain is room gain.

Perhaps you are missing the amplifier EQ that Mark applies to the driver for mode 1 and mode 2.
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post #222 of 234 Old 11-12-2012, 04:30 PM
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Maybe you have made an incorrect assumption of the naked raw response for the SMs. Like you said, room gain is room gain.
Perhaps you are missing the amplifier EQ that Mark applies to the driver for mode 1 and mode 2.

No incorrect (or otherwise) assumptions made, except to normalize all of the traces to 50 Hz, where they seem to have converged on the OM graph.

I think it's more to do with the HPF/no HPF situation. I really didn't understand all of that discussion. Maybe someone could clarify it in a paragraph as it relates to the subs I used for the comparison (which are the subs I have actual reliable native responses for).
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^^^ I think there was some discussion about the hpf being on for one Cap and off for the other during testing, resulting in phase issues below tuning. But rush says that wasn't the case. I assume he was tasked with the settings on the minidsp?
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post #224 of 234 Old 11-13-2012, 12:22 AM
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Quote:
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Maybe you have made an incorrect assumption of the naked raw response for the SMs. Like you said, room gain is room gain.
Perhaps you are missing the amplifier EQ that Mark applies to the driver for mode 1 and mode 2.

No incorrect (or otherwise) assumptions made, except to normalize all of the traces to 50 Hz, where they seem to have converged on the OM graph.

I think it's more to do with the HPF/no HPF situation. I really didn't understand all of that discussion. Maybe someone could clarify it in a paragraph as it relates to the subs I used for the comparison (which are the subs I have actual reliable native responses for).




Maybe you could try a comparison based on the dip near the 33 Hz area. Seems the the SM applies extra EQ (AKA not flat FR) near the 23 Hz area.


Those external HP filters were all over the place if and when they were used at all. Look at the recap of the filters that is located below the FR chart. The SM applies a 7 Hz HP via it's amplifier DSP. Not sure what the PSA uses for a HP or if an external HP was used (as noted on page 1). Amplifier roll off / internal HP filters can also be an unknown.



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post #225 of 234 Old 11-13-2012, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rush2049 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

It is possible that the issue existed on the Daytons because that was the first dual sub setup we used a HPF on
It is possible that the issue existed on the LMS for the frequency response capture, but not during the rest of the demo after the standardized music test at 15hz for the Bass I Love you song, because during that song we turned off the HPF as I recorded in my notes -- so that we could try to hear/feel the 7hz note. We did not re-engage, to my recollection. The HPF was disengaged early in the LMS-5400 auditio - before we let them run free!
It is very likely we had the HPF's messed up on the Captivators based on Gorilla's retesting, and the graphed FR.
It is not possible we had the HPF's messed up on the Seaton's because the HPF was turned off for these subs.
Ben, Andrew? Your thoughts on ^ assessment?

Daytons made a bit of noise on some of the movie content, but they weren't really pushed too hard so it was surprising. (I took pictures when the bad noise was made of faces.... and thats why I remember it). hpf was enabled the whole time and wasn't changed.

LMS had the hpf enabled until the end of the music section. Then it was disabled and we re-listened to some music content, then went through the entire movie section with it disabled. The clipping was so terrible.... sounded bad bad bad.... but no denying it was loud......

hpf's were setup correctly on the cap's, I enabled both channels of the miniDSP ..... which took care of both outputs to the subs.

agreed, the hpf was disabled for the submersives.




Sorry i have been so busy and haven't gotten to posting my last few impressions, and also getting the DVD's out to the few who asked for them. I haven't forgotten.



My meet notes say the Dayton HPF was turned from 14hz down to 10hz after the standardized music section.

I didn't realize the only sub of the day that used two channels on the DSP was the Caps as I think Mark pointed out. Gorilla's retest sure seems to indicate an HPF mismatch on the channels. His subs are obviously available and the whole process is repeatable. His retest graphs on the caps show a much flatter frequency response to port tune than what we saw at the meet. He also mentioned that when he mismatched the HPFs again the FR graph more aligned with what we saw that day, but he didn't have graph captures. I'm hoping Andrew will measure both ways again for us - at identical volume levels with the HPF's set the same (17hz in 15hz sub tune) and then again with one HPF engaged and the other channel disabled - taking and posting graphs of both. A retest scenario with graphs both ways should serve to shore up this mystery. Hint Hint Andrew!!!! tongue.gif

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J_Palmer_Cass,

You are correct.


one small side note: The HPF frequencies recorded in the screenprints of the omnimic captures are accurate for the FR captures, but in a couple cases, like the Dayton, and the LMS-5400 - the HPF was changed/lowered during the listening audition when no trouble was encountered.

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post #227 of 234 Old 11-14-2012, 04:22 AM - Thread Starter
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A retest scenario with graphs both ways should serve to shore up this mystery. Hint Hint Andrew!!!! tongue.gif

I'm on it, but give me a few days - maybe this weekend I can bust out the omnimic.
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post #228 of 234 Old 11-29-2012, 04:29 PM
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What??? you are selling the caps?

INCREDULOUS

One of you North Easters better step up to the plate and buy the pair so they can make an appearance at the next G2G -- if only to drive home the point Andrew is making a mistake in the sale. tongue.gif


Jim? You know you want a pair of Captivators! cool.gif


http://www.avsforum.com/t/1441673/2-x-passive-2011-jtr-captivators/0_20



BTW -- ANDREW -- TAKE THAT MEASUREMENT TO CLEAR UP THE HPF ISSUE AND POST IT BEFORE YOU SELL THEM! eek.gif

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Jim? You know you want a pair of Captivators! cool.gif

Oh sure. I'm just sitting here, minding my own business, and somehow I get dragged into this! tongue.gif

Actually, I am a bit surprised Andrew is selling his Caps now. I figured he might sooner or later, but I suspected later. Guess the next GTG will be interesting, eh? You definitely have to be their now...

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post #230 of 234 Old 11-30-2012, 04:15 AM
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Flux Capacitor

http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=8&products_id=21


A few other things we can test...

http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=10

See My Setup Here

 

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post #231 of 234 Old 11-30-2012, 05:33 AM - Thread Starter
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What??? you are selling the caps?
INCREDULOUS
One of you North Easters better step up to the plate and buy the pair so they can make an appearance at the next G2G -- if only to drive home the point Andrew is making a mistake in the sale. tongue.gif
Jim? You know you want a pair of Captivators! cool.gif
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1441673/2-x-passive-2011-jtr-captivators/0_20
BTW -- ANDREW -- TAKE THAT MEASUREMENT TO CLEAR UP THE HPF ISSUE AND POST IT BEFORE YOU SELL THEM! eek.gif

I will only sell if they go to a good home. I'm definitely not in a rush to sell them, but sadly I've been bitten by the DIY bug and the extra funds would go a long way.

I know, I need to hook the Caps and omnimic back up and get those measurements for you guys. I can do that while the Dayton cabs are getting painted this weekend. biggrin.gif
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Oh yeah - one other thing. We are doing some testing / small GTG on December 15th at my place for anyone interested. This will mostly be playing with some DIY projects, but we may have a few commercial offerings that show up as well. tongue.gif

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1442015/small-northeast-diy-gtg-saturday-december-15th
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post #233 of 234 Old 12-21-2012, 06:54 AM - Thread Starter
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post #234 of 234 Old 01-08-2013, 05:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Next event date set to Saturday, April 13th. We have a fair amount of repeat offenders so see you there!! biggrin.gif

-Andrew
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