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post #61 of 76 Old 07-12-2015, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Ormy View Post
I'm not an expert (which is why I'm asking one) but I'm curious, if the materials (rubber surround etc) had 'degraded' enough to drop the Fs to 46Hz then wouldn't some of the other parameters also have been affected enough to have a negative and audible effect on overall sound quality? Wouldn't a change that big in the parameters make it sound like crap?
Other than going lower the only other audible change was a bit less high end. In the case of the average sub or woofer than wouldn't matter, as they tend not to be run anywhere near the top of their range before being crossed over anyway. Where this effect can be unwanted is with large drivers which are run to high frequencies, ie., electric guitar drivers. Some players are known to swap them out periodically, after they've begun to lose some high frequency edge.

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post #62 of 76 Old Yesterday, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Red99 View Post
I would worry of any manufacturer that says it needs a lot of break in time, say 100 + hours, and only offer a 30 day return policy. Then I think its an excuse and if you aren't happy, they will say you didn't let them break in long enough.
This is the reason for break-in. Also, claiming to need break-in makes people naturally do more tweaking, and when they have tweaked for a million hours because they think they sounded s*** originally then they will often tend to like the product at the end, even if its still s***, because they have put so much effort into the tweaking. I try to avoid that when i make my own enclosures and such, but its difficult (read; impossible) to deny human nature.

Its also an old farce in marketing, "this requires a very special procedure, that's quality" - The special procedure they invented was break-in. There's burn-in procedures, warm-up procedures (only good in some circumstances, like combustion engines), checkpoint procedures, precise placement procedures, precisely defined optimal settings (like those "place the speakers exactly like this compared to the seating position, and the seating position must have your head x centimeters off the floor"). Some of it is actually there for good reasons, but for large amounts its just sound-system marketing magic (also being able to say you didn't put the speakers in the precise placement, and then being able to say that's the reason you don't like them). I think it is actually defined as real value to market something in such a way that people think its worth more even if its not actually containing more resources or cost, but I think its still marketing trickery that I do not want to pay for.
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post #63 of 76 Old Yesterday, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by ronny31 View Post
This is the reason for break-in.
Not necessarily. Suspension parts do loosen with use, changing the driver parameters. Where the snake oil enters the equation is when long break in times are quoted. Most manufacturers don't mention it at all, knowing that whatever break in that might occur will happen within a short time, from a few hours to a few days of normal use. Those manufacturers who do state that long break in periods are required, and by long I mean anything more than 40 hours of normal use, are selling you a bill of goods. You shouldn't buy it. They're hosing you and should not be rewarded with your business.
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post #64 of 76 Old Yesterday, 02:47 PM
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Generally speakers play well enough to pass quality control before they are played in. I have not come across any convincing data that suggest the change in resistance is significant in the claimed break-in amounts.
Break-in is less about loosening the spider and more like watching a bridge while something jumps on it to see if it falls down instantly, and if it doesn't, it is assumed that all is well and the trucks are sent across.
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post #65 of 76 Old Yesterday, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by ronny31 View Post
I have not come across any convincing data that suggest the change in resistance is significant in the claimed break-in amounts.
I have, and it's my own. I routinely measure a 10% drop in Fs between new and broken in woofers, and more significantly it takes a period of break in for Fs to measure close to the manufacturer spec.

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post #66 of 76 Old Yesterday, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
Those manufacturers who do state that long break in periods are required, and by long I mean anything more than 40 hours of normal use, are selling you a bill of goods. You shouldn't buy it. They're hosing you and should not be rewarded with your business.
Really? MartinLogan is in the business of snake-oil sales? Never would have guessed.

https://www.martinlogan.com/pdf/manu...al_preface.pdf

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Break-In
When you first begin to play your Preface speakers, they
will sound a bit bass shy. This is due to the high quality,
long-life components used in our woofer. Our custom
made, butyl surround woofer requires approximately
72 hours of break-in at 90 dB (moderate listening levels)
before any critical listening. The break-in requirements of
the crossover components and ATF transducer are equivalent.

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post #67 of 76 Old Yesterday, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Squirrel! View Post
Really? MartinLogan is in the business of snake-oil sales? Never would have guessed.
https://www.martinlogan.com/pdf/manu...al_preface.pdf
I'm afraid so. The crossover components require break in? Only components with moving parts can break in. Crossovers do not have moving parts. As for the woofer, if anything butyl surrounds have a relatively short break in period. IMO this is a case where the very different sound of electrostatics might be initially off putting, so to account for that they're recommending a break in that, in this case, lies within the perception of the listener.

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post #68 of 76 Old Yesterday, 08:56 PM
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Only one thing about your theory...The ML Preface are conventional speakers and not electrostats, as seen in my avatar.

I just have a really hard time believing that MartinLogan would be in the business of snake oil sales, after the reputation they have earned (deserve) for themselves these past so many years is all. And while I do respect your career path, I'm thinking (and this is nothing personal) that you might be wrong in this case.

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post #69 of 76 Old Today, 02:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Squirrel! View Post
Only one thing about your theory...The ML Preface are conventional speakers and not electrostats, as seen in my avatar.

I just have a really hard time believing that MartinLogan would be in the business of snake oil sales, after the reputation they have earned (deserve) for themselves these past so many years is all. And while I do respect your career path, I'm thinking (and this is nothing personal) that you might be wrong in this case.
All companies sell a little snake oil. Even JBL whom I have deep respect for have a few such moments in their current lineup. It makes money, and people really get more joy-chemicals in the brain as a result of the snake oil marketing, and I'm fine with it, as long as I can detect it so I can choose whether or not I want to feel good about a product because of psychological marketing trickery.
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post #70 of 76 Old Today, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Squirrel! View Post
Only one thing about your theory...The ML Preface are conventional speakers and not electrostats, as seen in my avatar.
In that case what they claim is indefensible. At least with an electrostatic there would be some justification for a period of adjustment of your ears to the different sound.
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I just have a really hard time believing that MartinLogan would be in the business of snake oil sales
The history of marketing departments spouting nonsense is as old as the existence of marketing departments.

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post #71 of 76 Old Today, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
In that case what they claim is indefensible. At least with an electrostatic there would be some justification for a period of adjustment of your ears to the different sound.
The history of marketing departments spouting nonsense is as old as the existence of marketing departments.
Remember though, it is human nature to defend what one owns. Therefore, ML is beyond reproach. Even their marketing department.
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post #72 of 76 Old Today, 08:20 AM
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Remember though, it is human nature to defend what one owns. Therefore, ML is beyond reproach. Even their marketing department.
Why beyond reproach? I never said that. I am certain they do things that I as a consumer am not privvy to. It is just this is the first and ONLY time, that I am aware of anyway, that someone has made snake oil claims against ML. Sure seems odd that all of a sudden, even their explanation for break in is not acceptable.

And while bill IS an engineer, designing speakers, I ask, are you a chemical engineer as well as a speaker engineer? I ask with the utmost respect, but do you know that the chemical composition of THEIR surround isn't different from say, a Parts Express $4 woofer surround? I would imagine thickness and composition would make all the difference in the world as to how long it would take for it to relax.

Again, no disrespect intended, just trying to further my edimafacation a notch or two.

Oh! And bear, I have several items I would not defend just because I own them. Please do not take liberties trying to explain why I do or don't do or say something. Thanks!

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post #73 of 76 Old Today, 08:45 AM
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You seemed astonished that someone would suggest that ML's marketing is using marketing, rather than scientific facts, to sell product or reduce returns on products. You own ML. Perhaps I interpreted things incorrectly. In my experience, very small, privately owned companies often do a pretty good job of walking a straight line in regards to truth in advertising and avoiding marketing that is questionable(Ascend comes to mind). It seems to me that bigger companies have a tendency to become more profit oriented(not that this is necessarily a bad thing). Maybe the company grows to the point where all the decisions are no longer in the hands of a single enthusiast type owner. You get a marketing department. Board of directors. People who are in charge of maintaining profitability and cost cutting. Some flowery verbage to reduce returns looks good for a bottom line.

Does Fs change a bit with a relatively short break in period? According to Bill F., yes. Are break in periods required? Do they affect longevity? Will they make a huge difference in the sound? No. If people buy into the theory of long, extended break in periods, are they likely to keep the product they are testing out? My money says yes.
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post #74 of 76 Old Today, 09:09 AM
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I think the rubber band analogy may be a stretch... If you take something like a new shirt, perhaps one with a printed design, and crumple or wash it a few times, it never gets back to the original "stiff" texture it had out of the bag.

I have no measurement data to present after all these years, but decades ago (ca. 1982) helped set up and run a speaker breakin test. The test was a huge effort to set up and conduct. We compared several speakers to get a cross section of designs; I think Magnepan 3 and 20, B&W 801 and a smaller pair, Polk, Rogers LS3/5a, and Quads (ESLs) were what we had on hand. We measured two pairs at the start (as we received them; note that factory testing or breakin may have been performed first but we did ask for no burn-in) then set one pair aside and ran pink noise through the other pair. We measured and listened out to 100 hours. The differences were readily measurable, natch, but sonic differences were harder to pin down. As has been stated the woofers dropped in frequency and the difference was audible when we compared fresh to broken-in pairs of speakers. Midrange/tweeter sonic changes were less audible and IIRC sometimes we didn't notice any. One catch was that IIRC I measured at 1 and then 10-minute intervals but I think the first listening test was at one hour (there was a brief listening session at 10 minutes). We used pink noise, tones, and musical selections to test (this was long before the HT days, but some of our test records included things like gunshots and thunderclaps). I was focused on planers at the time, and my Magnepans exhibited more change than conventional speakers. IIRC most midrange and treble drivers were down shifting after a few minutes, and most speakers had changed by about as much as I could measure back then after 10 hours or so (and sometimes much less). The Maggies were sonically done after maybe 10 hours but IIRC measurable differences were recorded until about the 40 hour mark.

FWIWFM - Don

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post #75 of 76 Old Today, 10:05 AM
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I think the rubber band analogy may be a stretch...
New unwashed jeans is a better one, especially as the main contributor to the initial stiffness of the driver suspension is the spider, which is made of cloth. An image of Kramer comes to mind.

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post #76 of 76 Old Today, 12:50 PM
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