A comparison of three tactile transducers - ButtKicker Mini LFE vs. Clark Synthesis TST209 vs. Aura Bass Shaker Pro - Page 7 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #181 of 229 Old 05-01-2014, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

It's clean bass. You can tailor the sound with EQ - just like your main subwoofers using the iNuke's DSP. It sounds good and really I think you could get away with just having those nearfield subs and no main subs because when you are sitting down you can't tell that the bass is behind you if you cross it over low enough. At 80hz I subjectively can tell the bass is behind me. At 70hz crossover I cannot.

Interesting - thank you!

You've intrigued me sufficiently to pull out a pair of 200w powered subs that I could experiment with - it just seems counter-intuitive to place an object as substantial as a couch in front of my main subs; doesn't it muffle/absorb/diffuse the sound?
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post #182 of 229 Old 05-01-2014, 08:17 PM - Thread Starter
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So here is my little experiment in pictures so far.

I started playing with the old car sub boxes I had on hand. I have one that is port tuned to mid/high 30hz and one that is sealed. I had a couple Infinity Kappa perfect subs I was using in the boxes. The ported box gave me more tactile feel. An amazing amount! Enough to have me raving to my wife that this was a marketable idea! I could have tons of tactile feedback and low volumes. I could make a plastic form enclosure and drop a nice 10 or 12" sub in it, sell it with a inuke amp with a DSP configured for nearfield and some choice instruction and make a little fun business. But the ported was of course only good for music with it's 30hz tune. That's no good - it won't fly. So I then tried the sealed. Sealed worked great stuffed !right into the back of my chair. less tactile, but frankly still great! Bummer in that I can't recline with either box I had on hand since they are right up against the back of my chairs.



How the sealed enclosure was set that worked so well.


With Infinity Kappa Perfect 10.1 driver sitting atop.






Enter the search for a pre-made cheap box that might work in letting my chairs recline and still give me that nearfield tactile feel. I began looking for boxes that were wedge shaped so I could have the recline action go right over the top. Ebay auction boxes purchased for $35 each all lined up in living room.





















But this is definitely lacking compared to having the subs firing directly into my back. Cool, but nothing to write home about. It's WAY less tactile than I hoped for or experienced with the other temp setups. I haven't spent time playing with phase, or distance yet, heck I haven't even unboxed the ominmic at the new house yet and I still plan to - but even with just the nearfield subs playing (and the captivators off) the nearfield aren't as tactile as they were when they were playing into my back by any means - so I don't think it's a phase issue with the captivators.

I decided to lay them down and fire them forward into the bottom of the chair. Actually that's an improvement over standing them up, but it's still not the same as firing it directly into my back. For right now they are all laying down firing forward - because that's the best I've found with them so far.





A friend of mine Luke Kamp told me that he read somewhere that if you are in a distance of less than the driver cone diameter away from the driver's cone then you are getting significantly stronger tactile acoustic energy along the lines of hydrodynamics instead of just what air movement does. I'm probably messing up what he said, but that was what I thought I understood. So effectively if I can keep the cone less than 10" from my back - it's exponentially stronger than if further away - since these are 10" cones. With 15" cones you'd have up to 15" etc. I don't know about the science, but I can tell you for sure my experience aligns with what he had read and mentioned to me.


I now need to play with trying to elevate the subs on some feet or blocks, Tinker with phase, delays, etc. I'm not giving up, but I'm disappointed initially compared to the old car box subs firing directly into the small of my back through the chair which was nothing short of exhilarating!


If you do this type of experiment - GET THEM CLOSE!
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post #183 of 229 Old 05-02-2014, 07:47 AM
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Hmmm interesting. My mbm fires down, so I must be missing out on a lot of impact. I have never tried taking the feet off and laying it on it's side. I would have to move my rows further apart to do this but it's worth trying.
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post #184 of 229 Old 05-03-2014, 03:21 PM
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Facing the driver forward into the couch is nice, but as soon as I recline the bass turns into a bloaty mess - no good.
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post #185 of 229 Old 05-27-2014, 12:30 AM
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Thought of Archaea's nearfield experiment as I engaged in my own beginning on Sat night. In my previous orientation, I just wasn't getting the impact I wanted and I know most if not all was room related. So what's the recipe, take the room out of the equation. I removed my back row of seating which was basically cosmetic as those seats were rarely occupied and too close to the back wall to sound good anyhow and moved my 15hz tuned subs to the back and they line up just perfect so that each driver fires directly towards the back of each seat less than a foot away.

Moving my main seating area back a foot yielded better measured response from my mains also confirmed by ear with a substantial increase in mid bass. Amps (two clone fp14ks) were not under stress before but really loafing along now and the bass is ridiculously tactile and that's without transducers in the mix yet. Archaea, I'd strongly suggest trying your caps near field. You'll probably never move them again.

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post #186 of 229 Old 05-27-2014, 12:36 AM
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Also, each ported sub is getting one channel of an FP 14k with a fourth channel running 4 SI18s up front so everything doesn't sound like it originates from behind. Crossing at 60hz helps as well.
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post #187 of 229 Old 05-27-2014, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post

Also, each ported sub is getting one channel of an FP 14k with a fourth channel running 4 SI18s up front so everything doesn't sound like it originates from behind. Crossing at 60hz helps as well.
Cool...nice setup. Ported nearfield is very tactile. smile.gif

So ported nearfield and sealed up front? What drivers are you running on the nearfield subs?
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post #188 of 229 Old 05-27-2014, 09:53 AM
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Thx Dom, they're UXL 18s.
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post #189 of 229 Old 05-27-2014, 10:39 AM
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Oh and yes, sealed up front.
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post #190 of 229 Old 06-06-2014, 01:58 PM
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I am no bass expert, but have been using two buttkickers with one buttkicker amp in the following setup:

One buttkicker skahes a 8x7 riser with two recliners.

One buttkicker shakes three recliners linked together (front row).

My opinion:

The effect is incredible!

The amp is more, more than enough...I use the amp at one third max volume, more than that it shakes too much!

It adds a lot to movies, using the proper crossover level so that it shakes only when it should.

People unaware of those shakers wonder what kind of sub I am using...

For music, I turn it off. i dont need my butt to shake when listening to music...

My two buttkickers and a dedicated amp is the best money I have invested in my HT so far!
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post #191 of 229 Old 06-06-2014, 02:29 PM
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^^ Agree with that. I have only one sub, albeit a good one (Submersive HP), in a dedicated HT and because of the kickers I feel like I need or want any more.
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post #192 of 229 Old 06-07-2014, 05:42 AM
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i love reading about the kind of experiments like archaea came up with...stirs the blood!

this kind of "out of the box" thinking is one of the great things about AVS...lots of off the wall ideas and members, and i mean that in a good way...

years ago i bought a sunfire true sub (back when bob carver was pioneering the mini-sub)...and it was ok but no great shakes compared to the big m&k i had at the time. on a whim i moved it right behind my loveseat, about two inches away...

wow...the tactile effect it produced was outstanding and it WAS addicting...movies were a butt-shakin blast and the subtle bite it added to music was spot on...

these days my loveseat is about 10" in front of a 2nd row riser (with a buttkicker LFE attached) which has 2 seats on it...the effects are great, but things can always be better right...?

now archaea has me thinking (i've brought this up before, but didn't get much feedback) about mounting a 10" or 12" driver in the riser, directly under each seat...

it's hard to put a finger on, but i've always missed a certain something since i let that little sunfire setup go...

i expect a little tweaking and experimenting to dial things in with the buttkicker...but could this be a step in the right direction...?

at the zenith of his nadir...
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post #193 of 229 Old 06-07-2014, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lefthandluke View Post

i love reading about the kind of experiments like archaea came up with...stirs the blood!

this kind of "out of the box" thinking is one of the great things about AVS...lots of off the wall ideas and members, and i mean that in a good way...

years ago i bought a sunfire true sub (back when bob carver was pioneering the mini-sub)...and it was ok but no great shakes compared to the big m&k i had at the time. on a whim i moved it right behind my loveseat, about two inches away...

wow...the tactile effect it produced was outstanding and it WAS addicting...movies were a butt-shakin blast and the subtle bite it added to music was spot on...

these days my loveseat is about 10" in front of a 2nd row riser (with a buttkicker LFE attached) which has 2 seats on it...the effects are great, but things can always be better right...?

now archaea has me thinking (i've brought this up before, but didn't get much feedback) about mounting a 10" or 12" driver in the riser, directly under each seat...

it's hard to put a finger on, but i've always missed a certain something since i let that little sunfire setup go...

i expect a little tweaking and experimenting to dial things in with the buttkicker...but could this be a step in the right direction...?

I like this idea! There is certainly something to be said about nearfield placement and it's effect on tactile feedback. I performed a test here showing there was a significant difference in tactile feedback when at the same SPL placed in the nearfield as compared to the farfield.

 

Would you essentially convert your riser to a sealed sub? Are you in Dayton, Ohio? Cinti, here...

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post #194 of 229 Old 06-08-2014, 04:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

I like this idea! There is certainly something to be said about nearfield placement and it's effect on tactile feedback. I performed a test here showing there was a significant difference in tactile feedback when at the same SPL placed in the nearfield as compared to the farfield.

Would you essentially convert your riser to a sealed sub? Are you in Dayton, Ohio? Cinti, here...


well, i don't know if the riser would act as a sub...it is suspended about an inch above the carpeted slab for the buttkicker effects...and it is open on the bottom so it is not sealed.

my intent was just to have the woofs firing directly into the bottom of the chairs for tactile reasons...

maybe i should thro a piece of plywood on the bottom and seal it up...?

yep...right up 75 dom

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post #195 of 229 Old 06-08-2014, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by lefthandluke View Post

well, i don't know if the riser would act as a sub...it is suspended about an inch above the carpeted slab for the buttkicker effects...and it is open on the bottom so it is not sealed.

my intent was just to have the woofs firing directly into the bottom of the chairs for tactile reasons...

maybe i should thro a piece of plywood on the bottom and seal it up...?

yep...right up 75 dom
Hmmm, interesting thought though to leave it open. By doing so, could you perhaps take advantage of any tactile effects the back wave may have as well?
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post #196 of 229 Old 06-09-2014, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

I performed a test here showing there was a significant difference in tactile feedback when at the same SPL placed in the nearfield as compared to the farfield.


interesting read...farfield sub levels had to be increased 20db to match tactile effects of nearfield subs...!!!!



Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 
Hmmm, interesting thought though to leave it open. By doing so, could you perhaps take advantage of any tactile effects the back wave may have as well?


well, I'm not sure about this dom...was hoping others may have tried this somewhere down the line.

maybe I should make a run to parts express and do a little experimenting of my own...!!

at the zenith of his nadir...
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post #197 of 229 Old 06-09-2014, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lefthandluke View Post

interesting read...farfield sub levels had to be increased 20db to match tactile effects of nearfield subs...!!!!
well, I'm not sure about this dom...was hoping others may have tried this somewhere down the line.

maybe I should make a run to parts express and do a little experimenting of my own...!!
The more I think about it...leaving it open may negate the tactile effects as the back wave would be directly out of phase with the front wave, potentially canceling out the near field particle velocity effects and summing to essentially zero sound intensity.
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post #198 of 229 Old 06-24-2014, 12:12 PM
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I just ordered two Aura Pros and a Dayton plate amp. Seeing as the plate amp is for a sub I'll be able to specify the cutoff frequency and volume independent of the sub settings.

Does that sound right? I went that route for cost and tune-ability. It's a 100w amp so each shaker will get the max 50 watts.

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post #199 of 229 Old 06-24-2014, 12:49 PM
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^^
It will work fine...I have a similar set-up with four Aura Pros and two dayton plate amps.
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post #200 of 229 Old 06-24-2014, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by laugsbach View Post
^^
It will work fine...I have a similar set-up with four Aura Pros and two dayton plate amps.
Sweet! Parts should arrive Thursday, hopefully the monoprice order will be here by the weekend. If not I can get most of the work done with out it.

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post #201 of 229 Old 08-04-2014, 11:53 AM
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Very cool thread and experimenting. Thanks for sharing.

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post #202 of 229 Old 10-30-2014, 05:08 PM
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im looking to get a buttkicker advance and wondering how much power is really needed. i have decided on a inuke dsp amp, either the 1000 or 3000. Will the 1000 be enough juice for the advance or is 3000 the better way to go?

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post #203 of 229 Old 10-30-2014, 05:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Inuke dsp 1000 is sufficient.

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post #204 of 229 Old 11-03-2014, 07:43 PM
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I have the Clark synthesis platinum units built into my main seats.

My issue with these products: if you setup their gain and frequency range too be barely noticable then there is almost no point in having them. On the other hand if you boost them too much they are noticable but they feel like a gimmick. I would like them to complement my subwoofers (which is how I use them) but once I built really huge subwoofers, they sorta became redundant.

If you can integrate them for music and movies at low frequencies (perhaps less than 40hz) and have them augment your subs... that seems to be all they are good for.

Also, these seem to be more relevant to the "guest" in your home theater who isn't as picky and doesn't understand the nuances. The suspension of disbelief is not quite as possible for the one that installed these things. It reminds of Adam and the apple in the garden of evil.

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Quote:
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I have the Clark synthesis platinum units built into my main seats.

My issue with these products: if you setup their gain and frequency range too be barely noticable then there is almost no point in having them. On the other hand if you boost them too much they are noticable but they feel like a gimmick. I would like them to complement my subwoofers (which is how I use them) but once I built really huge subwoofers, they sorta became redundant.

If you can integrate them for music and movies at low frequencies (perhaps less than 40hz) and have them augment your subs... that seems to be all they are good for.

Also, these seem to be more relevant to the "guest" in your home theater who isn't as picky and doesn't understand the nuances. The suspension of disbelief is not quite as possible for the one that installed these things. It reminds of Adam and the apple in the garden of evil.
I tried the Clark products years ago and switch over to buttkicker for more of a oomph. Though I love the buttkickers built into my platform, I've added a crowson for that precise tactical feel. It does feel like a true compliment to the subwoofer. I re-watched Jurassic Park and the t-rex scenes had new life to them with the crowson.

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post #206 of 229 Old 11-04-2014, 10:17 PM
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Transducers should be XO low to not become annoying when watching a movie or music. They are meant to add another dimension to the HT even if you have good subs. I like them and do not feel that they are gimmicky. I like the Aura Pro shakers. They seem just about right for my room/HT.
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post #207 of 229 Old 11-05-2014, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post
I have the Clark synthesis platinum units built into my main seats.

My issue with these products: if you setup their gain and frequency range too be barely noticable then there is almost no point in having them. On the other hand if you boost them too much they are noticable but they feel like a gimmick. I would like them to complement my subwoofers (which is how I use them) but once I built really huge subwoofers, they sorta became redundant.

If you can integrate them for music and movies at low frequencies (perhaps less than 40hz) and have them augment your subs... that seems to be all they are good for.

Also, these seem to be more relevant to the "guest" in your home theater who isn't as picky and doesn't understand the nuances. The suspension of disbelief is not quite as possible for the one that installed these things. It reminds of Adam and the apple in the garden of evil.
IME, transducers feel "gimmicky" when they're not timed properly. This applies to ALL transducers. If you just use the subwoofer output of the receiver or pre/pro to drive the transducer, it will usually fire early. This is because the transducer is a direct signal from the receiver to the transducer amp, and the subwoofer signal has to go through any processing in the sub amp PLUS the sound has to traverse the room to get to the listening position. This results in the transducer starting to shake a few milliseconds before the sound arrives. You may not consciously notice this, but you'll notice that the shaking isn't quite "right."

Another disadvantage to running the transducer off the subwoofer output of the receiver or pre/pro is that the transducer is exposed to the Room Correction applied by the receiver/pre/pro. A transducer doesn't need, or benefit from, Room Correction. If the RC system is applying a big boosts or cuts to the response in the range you're using for the transducer, the transducer will "see" those and respond accordingly.

A third disadvantage to running the transducer off the subwoofer output of the receiver/pre/pro is hat the output of the transducer is tied to the Master Volume Control. As you turn the MVC up or down, you change the output of the transducer, which leads to your complaint about the levels of the transducer never being "right."

I have addressed all these concerns by setting up my transducers quite differently. I don't use the subwoofer output of my pre/pro to supply the signal for my transducers, (Crowson Tactile Actuators.) I use the analog subwoofer output of my BluRay player to supply the signal for the transducers. This addresses all 3 of these problems

First, the analog outputs of my BluRay player are exposed to the Bass Management of the player, (Oppo 105D.) This allows me to set the delays in the BM to delay the signal to the transducer to match the arrival time of the bass soundwaves. I do this by setting the subwoofer "Distance" to "0" and then setting the speakers to further Distance settings. Setting them to 20 ft adds about 2 milliseconds of delay to the transducers and, in my system, times the transducers perfectly with the subs. The difference is significant. When the transducers shake at the same time as the soundwaves, the effect is much more natural and believable... and most importantly immersive. It ADDS TO the "suspension of disbelief" instead of distracting the listener/viewer from it.

Second, this arrangement completely eliminates Audyssey's RC from the transducer signal, (the actual audio signal is sent via HDMI to the pre/pro, so it gets Audyssey processing, but the transducers do not.) In my system, Audyssey implements a big cut of about 10 dB from 30 to 40 Hz. If the transducers were exposed to that, they wouldn't feel right. By circumventing Audyssey for the transducers, they get the signal exactly as it comes off the disc, which is the most optimal signal they can get.

Finally, I set the level of the transducers on my transducer amp, (Buttkicker BKA-1000), and I virtually never change it. I generally listen to my system at MVC levels from -12, (when I'm watching with my wife), to 0 (when I'm watching by myself or demoing the system.) One level setting for the transducers works well for any of those MVC settings. If the transducers were tied to the MVC, the levels at 0 would be way too high and the levels at -12 would be imperceptible. If I do want to change the transducer levels, I can do so with the Volume control for the BluRay player, although I virtually never do that.

I am MUCH happier with my transducers since I set them up this way. In addition, my BluRay player has 2 HDMI inputs, so I can connect 2 external sources to the BluRay player and they work the same way with the audio system and the transducers.

Craig

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post #208 of 229 Old 11-08-2014, 10:12 AM
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Excellent advice craig, i actually do have the output setup with the receiver output and it is susceptible to the bass management software.

I ought to rethink my delay setup too yo be sure i did it right (but I am using the delay in my crown dsp amp for this setting).

Definitely food for thought!
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post #209 of 229 Old 11-08-2014, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post
Excellent advice craig, i actually do have the output setup with the receiver output and it is susceptible to the bass management software.

I ought to rethink my delay setup too yo be sure i did it right (but I am using the delay in my crown dsp amp for this setting).

Definitely food for thought!
I watched/listened to Lee Ritenour's Overtime concert BluRay last night. There is some great drums, (Harvey Mason), percussion, (Alex Acunis), and bass playing, (Melvin Davis), as well as keyboards, (Dave Grusin), and vocals, (Ivan Lins.) The Crowsons were quite active throughout this concert. Yet I was struck multiple times how well integrated the transducers are to the music. The tactile just seemed like it was a part of the sound, not a separate effect. As I said, I'm happier than I've ever been with my transducers since I set them up this way.

Craig

Lombardi said it:
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

My System

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post #210 of 229 Old 11-08-2014, 07:27 PM
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I will have to give your method a try Craig. Thanks for the post.
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