A comparison of three tactile transducers - ButtKicker Mini LFE vs. Clark Synthesis TST209 vs. Aura Bass Shaker Pro - Page 7 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #181 of 200 Old 05-01-2014, 07:11 PM
DGF
Senior Member
 
DGF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Los Gatos, CA
Posts: 484
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

It's clean bass. You can tailor the sound with EQ - just like your main subwoofers using the iNuke's DSP. It sounds good and really I think you could get away with just having those nearfield subs and no main subs because when you are sitting down you can't tell that the bass is behind you if you cross it over low enough. At 80hz I subjectively can tell the bass is behind me. At 70hz crossover I cannot.

Interesting - thank you!

You've intrigued me sufficiently to pull out a pair of 200w powered subs that I could experiment with - it just seems counter-intuitive to place an object as substantial as a couch in front of my main subs; doesn't it muffle/absorb/diffuse the sound?
DGF is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #182 of 200 Old 05-01-2014, 08:17 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Archaea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 5,598
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 120 Post(s)
Liked: 471
So here is my little experiment in pictures so far.

I started playing with the old car sub boxes I had on hand. I have one that is port tuned to mid/high 30hz and one that is sealed. I had a couple Infinity Kappa perfect subs I was using in the boxes. The ported box gave me more tactile feel. An amazing amount! Enough to have me raving to my wife that this was a marketable idea! I could have tons of tactile feedback and low volumes. I could make a plastic form enclosure and drop a nice 10 or 12" sub in it, sell it with a inuke amp with a DSP configured for nearfield and some choice instruction and make a little fun business. But the ported was of course only good for music with it's 30hz tune. That's no good - it won't fly. So I then tried the sealed. Sealed worked great stuffed !right into the back of my chair. less tactile, but frankly still great! Bummer in that I can't recline with either box I had on hand since they are right up against the back of my chairs.



How the sealed enclosure was set that worked so well.


With Infinity Kappa Perfect 10.1 driver sitting atop.






Enter the search for a pre-made cheap box that might work in letting my chairs recline and still give me that nearfield tactile feel. I began looking for boxes that were wedge shaped so I could have the recline action go right over the top. Ebay auction boxes purchased for $35 each all lined up in living room.





















But this is definitely lacking compared to having the subs firing directly into my back. Cool, but nothing to write home about. It's WAY less tactile than I hoped for or experienced with the other temp setups. I haven't spent time playing with phase, or distance yet, heck I haven't even unboxed the ominmic at the new house yet and I still plan to - but even with just the nearfield subs playing (and the captivators off) the nearfield aren't as tactile as they were when they were playing into my back by any means - so I don't think it's a phase issue with the captivators.

I decided to lay them down and fire them forward into the bottom of the chair. Actually that's an improvement over standing them up, but it's still not the same as firing it directly into my back. For right now they are all laying down firing forward - because that's the best I've found with them so far.





A friend of mine Luke Kamp told me that he read somewhere that if you are in a distance of less than the driver cone diameter away from the driver's cone then you are getting significantly stronger tactile acoustic energy along the lines of hydrodynamics instead of just what air movement does. I'm probably messing up what he said, but that was what I thought I understood. So effectively if I can keep the cone less than 10" from my back - it's exponentially stronger than if further away - since these are 10" cones. With 15" cones you'd have up to 15" etc. I don't know about the science, but I can tell you for sure my experience aligns with what he had read and mentioned to me.


I now need to play with trying to elevate the subs on some feet or blocks, Tinker with phase, delays, etc. I'm not giving up, but I'm disappointed initially compared to the old car box subs firing directly into the small of my back through the chair which was nothing short of exhilarating!


If you do this type of experiment - GET THEM CLOSE!
lefthandluke likes this.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
Archaea's Theatre Room
2011 KC Sub Shootout
2012 KC Blind Sub Shootout

My Subwoofer Recommendations by Pricepoint

Archaea is online now  
post #183 of 200 Old 05-02-2014, 07:47 AM
AVS Special Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,962
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 182 Post(s)
Liked: 417
Hmmm interesting. My mbm fires down, so I must be missing out on a lot of impact. I have never tried taking the feet off and laying it on it's side. I would have to move my rows further apart to do this but it's worth trying.
carp is online now  
post #184 of 200 Old 05-03-2014, 03:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,962
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 182 Post(s)
Liked: 417
Facing the driver forward into the couch is nice, but as soon as I recline the bass turns into a bloaty mess - no good.
carp is online now  
post #185 of 200 Old 05-27-2014, 12:30 AM
AVS Special Member
 
gpmbc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: AZ
Posts: 2,331
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked: 69
Thought of Archaea's nearfield experiment as I engaged in my own beginning on Sat night. In my previous orientation, I just wasn't getting the impact I wanted and I know most if not all was room related. So what's the recipe, take the room out of the equation. I removed my back row of seating which was basically cosmetic as those seats were rarely occupied and too close to the back wall to sound good anyhow and moved my 15hz tuned subs to the back and they line up just perfect so that each driver fires directly towards the back of each seat less than a foot away.

Moving my main seating area back a foot yielded better measured response from my mains also confirmed by ear with a substantial increase in mid bass. Amps (two clone fp14ks) were not under stress before but really loafing along now and the bass is ridiculously tactile and that's without transducers in the mix yet. Archaea, I'd strongly suggest trying your caps near field. You'll probably never move them again.

gpmbc is offline  
post #186 of 200 Old 05-27-2014, 12:36 AM
AVS Special Member
 
gpmbc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: AZ
Posts: 2,331
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked: 69
Also, each ported sub is getting one channel of an FP 14k with a fourth channel running 4 SI18s up front so everything doesn't sound like it originates from behind. Crossing at 60hz helps as well.
gpmbc is offline  
post #187 of 200 Old 05-27-2014, 08:59 AM
AVS Special Member
 
dominguez1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,668
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
Liked: 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post

Also, each ported sub is getting one channel of an FP 14k with a fourth channel running 4 SI18s up front so everything doesn't sound like it originates from behind. Crossing at 60hz helps as well.
Cool...nice setup. Ported nearfield is very tactile. smile.gif

So ported nearfield and sealed up front? What drivers are you running on the nearfield subs?
dominguez1 is offline  
post #188 of 200 Old 05-27-2014, 09:53 AM
AVS Special Member
 
gpmbc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: AZ
Posts: 2,331
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked: 69
Thx Dom, they're UXL 18s.
gpmbc is offline  
post #189 of 200 Old 05-27-2014, 10:39 AM
AVS Special Member
 
gpmbc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: AZ
Posts: 2,331
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked: 69
Oh and yes, sealed up front.
gpmbc is offline  
post #190 of 200 Old 06-06-2014, 01:58 PM
Advanced Member
 
stef2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 500
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 27
I am no bass expert, but have been using two buttkickers with one buttkicker amp in the following setup:

One buttkicker skahes a 8x7 riser with two recliners.

One buttkicker shakes three recliners linked together (front row).

My opinion:

The effect is incredible!

The amp is more, more than enough...I use the amp at one third max volume, more than that it shakes too much!

It adds a lot to movies, using the proper crossover level so that it shakes only when it should.

People unaware of those shakers wonder what kind of sub I am using...

For music, I turn it off. i dont need my butt to shake when listening to music...

My two buttkickers and a dedicated amp is the best money I have invested in my HT so far!
Gary J likes this.

Stef
stef2 is offline  
post #191 of 200 Old 06-06-2014, 02:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Gary J's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: 4000' or sea level
Posts: 7,582
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 86
^^ Agree with that. I have only one sub, albeit a good one (Submersive HP), in a dedicated HT and because of the kickers I feel like I need or want any more.
Gary J is offline  
post #192 of 200 Old 06-07-2014, 05:42 AM
AVS Special Member
 
lefthandluke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Dayton
Posts: 1,011
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 53
i love reading about the kind of experiments like archaea came up with...stirs the blood!

this kind of "out of the box" thinking is one of the great things about AVS...lots of off the wall ideas and members, and i mean that in a good way...

years ago i bought a sunfire true sub (back when bob carver was pioneering the mini-sub)...and it was ok but no great shakes compared to the big m&k i had at the time. on a whim i moved it right behind my loveseat, about two inches away...

wow...the tactile effect it produced was outstanding and it WAS addicting...movies were a butt-shakin blast and the subtle bite it added to music was spot on...

these days my loveseat is about 10" in front of a 2nd row riser (with a buttkicker LFE attached) which has 2 seats on it...the effects are great, but things can always be better right...?

now archaea has me thinking (i've brought this up before, but didn't get much feedback) about mounting a 10" or 12" driver in the riser, directly under each seat...

it's hard to put a finger on, but i've always missed a certain something since i let that little sunfire setup go...

i expect a little tweaking and experimenting to dial things in with the buttkicker...but could this be a step in the right direction...?
lefthandluke is offline  
post #193 of 200 Old 06-07-2014, 10:33 AM
AVS Special Member
 
dominguez1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,668
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
Liked: 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by lefthandluke View Post

i love reading about the kind of experiments like archaea came up with...stirs the blood!

this kind of "out of the box" thinking is one of the great things about AVS...lots of off the wall ideas and members, and i mean that in a good way...

years ago i bought a sunfire true sub (back when bob carver was pioneering the mini-sub)...and it was ok but no great shakes compared to the big m&k i had at the time. on a whim i moved it right behind my loveseat, about two inches away...

wow...the tactile effect it produced was outstanding and it WAS addicting...movies were a butt-shakin blast and the subtle bite it added to music was spot on...

these days my loveseat is about 10" in front of a 2nd row riser (with a buttkicker LFE attached) which has 2 seats on it...the effects are great, but things can always be better right...?

now archaea has me thinking (i've brought this up before, but didn't get much feedback) about mounting a 10" or 12" driver in the riser, directly under each seat...

it's hard to put a finger on, but i've always missed a certain something since i let that little sunfire setup go...

i expect a little tweaking and experimenting to dial things in with the buttkicker...but could this be a step in the right direction...?

I like this idea! There is certainly something to be said about nearfield placement and it's effect on tactile feedback. I performed a test here showing there was a significant difference in tactile feedback when at the same SPL placed in the nearfield as compared to the farfield.

 

Would you essentially convert your riser to a sealed sub? Are you in Dayton, Ohio? Cinti, here...

dominguez1 is offline  
post #194 of 200 Old 06-08-2014, 04:13 AM
AVS Special Member
 
lefthandluke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Dayton
Posts: 1,011
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

I like this idea! There is certainly something to be said about nearfield placement and it's effect on tactile feedback. I performed a test here showing there was a significant difference in tactile feedback when at the same SPL placed in the nearfield as compared to the farfield.

Would you essentially convert your riser to a sealed sub? Are you in Dayton, Ohio? Cinti, here...


well, i don't know if the riser would act as a sub...it is suspended about an inch above the carpeted slab for the buttkicker effects...and it is open on the bottom so it is not sealed.

my intent was just to have the woofs firing directly into the bottom of the chairs for tactile reasons...

maybe i should thro a piece of plywood on the bottom and seal it up...?

yep...right up 75 dom
lefthandluke is offline  
post #195 of 200 Old 06-08-2014, 02:51 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dominguez1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,668
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
Liked: 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by lefthandluke View Post

well, i don't know if the riser would act as a sub...it is suspended about an inch above the carpeted slab for the buttkicker effects...and it is open on the bottom so it is not sealed.

my intent was just to have the woofs firing directly into the bottom of the chairs for tactile reasons...

maybe i should thro a piece of plywood on the bottom and seal it up...?

yep...right up 75 dom
Hmmm, interesting thought though to leave it open. By doing so, could you perhaps take advantage of any tactile effects the back wave may have as well?
dominguez1 is offline  
post #196 of 200 Old 06-09-2014, 09:27 AM
AVS Special Member
 
lefthandluke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Dayton
Posts: 1,011
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

I performed a test here showing there was a significant difference in tactile feedback when at the same SPL placed in the nearfield as compared to the farfield.


interesting read...farfield sub levels had to be increased 20db to match tactile effects of nearfield subs...!!!!



Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 
Hmmm, interesting thought though to leave it open. By doing so, could you perhaps take advantage of any tactile effects the back wave may have as well?


well, I'm not sure about this dom...was hoping others may have tried this somewhere down the line.

maybe I should make a run to parts express and do a little experimenting of my own...!!
lefthandluke is offline  
post #197 of 200 Old 06-09-2014, 08:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dominguez1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,668
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
Liked: 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by lefthandluke View Post

interesting read...farfield sub levels had to be increased 20db to match tactile effects of nearfield subs...!!!!
well, I'm not sure about this dom...was hoping others may have tried this somewhere down the line.

maybe I should make a run to parts express and do a little experimenting of my own...!!
The more I think about it...leaving it open may negate the tactile effects as the back wave would be directly out of phase with the front wave, potentially canceling out the near field particle velocity effects and summing to essentially zero sound intensity.
dominguez1 is offline  
post #198 of 200 Old 06-24-2014, 12:12 PM
Advanced Member
 
design1stcode2nd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 836
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 33
I just ordered two Aura Pros and a Dayton plate amp. Seeing as the plate amp is for a sub I'll be able to specify the cutoff frequency and volume independent of the sub settings.

Does that sound right? I went that route for cost and tune-ability. It's a 100w amp so each shaker will get the max 50 watts.

The MacBeth Theater (flood resilient build)
 

Play like a Raven

design1stcode2nd is offline  
post #199 of 200 Old 06-24-2014, 12:49 PM
AVS Special Member
 
laugsbach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 2,583
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked: 123
^^
It will work fine...I have a similar set-up with four Aura Pros and two dayton plate amps.
laugsbach is online now  
post #200 of 200 Old 06-24-2014, 01:17 PM
Advanced Member
 
design1stcode2nd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 836
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by laugsbach View Post
^^
It will work fine...I have a similar set-up with four Aura Pros and two dayton plate amps.
Sweet! Parts should arrive Thursday, hopefully the monoprice order will be here by the weekend. If not I can get most of the work done with out it.

The MacBeth Theater (flood resilient build)
 

Play like a Raven

design1stcode2nd is offline  
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

Tags
Buttkicker Bk Lfekit Low Frequency Effect Kit With Amplifier For Home Theater

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off