Want to Upgrade my Subwoofer - A2-300.. Any Suggestions? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 32 Old 11-18-2012, 08:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys, i want to upgrade my subwoofer to get better overall bass performance, i dont mind if its ported etc etc, i noticed that elemental designs's website doesnt work anymore so i guess buying another sub from them isn't an option..

but yea, right now i have an elemental designs a2-300, had it for about 2 years, still works great. im looking at the SVS Subwoofers lineup, which subwoofer is the best bang for the buck from them that will surely be an upgrade from my A2-300?

no more than $700, i play games , watch movies and listen to music sometimes..

Thanks guys
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post #2 of 32 Old 11-18-2012, 10:13 AM
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The SVS PB-12 NSD is a very good choice, however, I wouldn't overlook the HSU VTF-2 MK4 especially because it is on Black Friday sale. You can't go wrong with either one.

VTF-2 MK4 will run you $582 delivered while the SVS PB-12 NSD will run you $769 delivered, with the VTF-2MK4 you save almost $200 over the PB-12NSD.
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post #3 of 32 Old 11-18-2012, 10:30 AM - Thread Starter
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u think the VTF-2 MK4 is a better sub than the pb12? whats the normal price for the VTF-2 MK4?


a friend also recommend Rythmik FV12, but i think the svs pb12 is better right?
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post #4 of 32 Old 11-18-2012, 10:56 AM
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Rythmik FV12 isn't available right now, its been discontinued for a new revised model.

The SVS PB12 NSD is a very good choice but its alittle over you budget of $700. If you don't want to go up to the price of the NSD then I think the HSU VTF-2Mk4 is going to be a good choice. But I do think the SVS is the better subwoofer but it does cost more. Its more inline with the VTF3 Mk4 than the VTF2.
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post #5 of 32 Old 11-18-2012, 11:02 AM - Thread Starter
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ill pay up and get the svs pb12 to get the best sound possible, also i know that SVS is known to be making the best Subwoofers around so thats why i dont want to be looking anywhere else u know... just to clear my mind though, SVS is better than HSU right? is there any other choice out there that is better than the PB12 for no more than 700?

are there usually any price markdowns on the PB12? such as deals or black friday sale?
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post #6 of 32 Old 11-18-2012, 12:08 PM
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Is it $200 better? Debatable. I'd sooner save the money and get the HSU, but I'm a performance per dollar kinda guy and the HSU would beat the SVS in that regard, my opinion.
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post #7 of 32 Old 11-18-2012, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
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well, the HSU doesn't go as low as the SVS pb12, so thats a plus.. also, i want to get a better subwoofer, and between the 2 it is the SVS right? regardless of the price..
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post #8 of 32 Old 11-18-2012, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lamonsasa View Post

well, the HSU doesn't go as low as the SVS pb12, so thats a plus.. also, i want to get a better subwoofer, and between the 2 it is the SVS right? regardless of the price..

The Hsu will go lower than the PB12, both the VTF2 and especially the VTF3. The PB12 reaches down to 20 hz, the VTF2 goes down to 18, and the VTF3 gets down to 16. With the sale on the VTF3 right now, I would go for that, it gets louder, goes lower, and is more configurable. It's also slightly cheaper, but only until the end of November.
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post #9 of 32 Old 11-18-2012, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

The Hsu will go lower than the PB12, both the VTF2 and especially the VTF3. The PB12 reaches down to 20 hz, the VTF2 goes down to 18, and the VTF3 gets down to 16. With the sale on the VTF3 right now, I would go for that, it gets louder, goes lower, and is more configurable. It's also slightly cheaper, but only until the end of November.

This info is not correct. Although thenpb12 is tuned to 20 it reaches easily 18hz and in room extension is down to 14-16

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post #10 of 32 Old 11-18-2012, 02:25 PM
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If money isn't an issue, the sale priced HSU VTF3 MK4 would get my vote as well. For the extra output headroom mostly. Bass extension, sub 20hz output, with a single 12" in a medium sized room isn't really quantifiable imo, not as important. You're going to be impressed mostly by the output above 20hz, the midbass punch that you feel in your body in particular, and the HSU has gobs and gobs of it.

If you're listening at lower or medium volume levels you probably won't notice much of a difference between the three. It's when you crank it up the differences become more apparent. And If you crank, you want the HSU. IMO.
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post #11 of 32 Old 11-18-2012, 02:30 PM - Thread Starter
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now im in a dilemma, does the HSU VTF3 really sound better than the PB12? it goes lower as well? well, the VTF3 will cost me 750 because HSU charges for the shipping so the price is the same between the pb12 and vtf3..
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post #12 of 32 Old 11-18-2012, 02:37 PM
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My vote would be on SVS. The SVS has a more smooth freq response, lower distortion numbers, DSP amp, and a higher quality driver (just my opinion though). Either one is a great choice though its not like they are far apart from each other, both are very capable subwoofers, both companys have a great reputation and I highly doubt you'll be disappointed with either. But for me its SVS.
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post #13 of 32 Old 11-18-2012, 02:42 PM
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The HSU won't sound better. Bass is bass, it all sounds the same mostly, without getting into the esoterics. The HSU just has some better specs. More output and extension. It is the better sub on a frequency response graph, if those two components are what you're looking at.

Honestly, they are both incredible subs, and they will both satisfy you completely. You can even flip a coin and go with either, once you get either in your home you'll be completely satisfied. Promise wink.gif
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post #14 of 32 Old 11-18-2012, 02:44 PM - Thread Starter
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The thing is that i spoke to Doug from SVS just now and he said that in a audioholics review, they compared the pb12 plus vs the hsu 15 and they found out that the HSU 15 rolled off at 28hz which is not even close to the advertised 20hz..

How would the Epik Legend compare to the pb12?
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post #15 of 32 Old 11-18-2012, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lamonsasa View Post

The thing is that i spoke to Doug from SVS just now and he said that in a audioholics review, they compared the pb12 plus vs the hsu 15 and they found out that the HSU 15 rolled off at 28hz which is not even close to the advertised 20hz..
How would the Epik Legend compare to the pb12?

The PB12 would have more deep bass output than the Legend, but the Legend would likely have more mid and upper bass output. Between those two I would swing for the PB12, but for reliability reasons, not performance reasons. As for what SVS says, they mentioned a comparison between subs that you aren't looking at, although what he said is true. A more relevant comparison for your choices can be found here, compare the PB12 to the Outlaw LFM-1 EX. Keep in mind that the Outlaw EX is a clone of the VTF3 mk2, which is two generations behind the current VTF3, and the mk4 is a better sub than the Outlaw. So if the Outlaw is more powerful than the PB12, and the VTF3 mk4 performs better than the Outlaw, how does the PB12 stack up against the VTF3? BTW, the Outlaw is a good sub in itself, and might be available for a very good price on Black Friday, possibly 550 to 600 shipped, that might warrant your attention if you want a powerful sub and want to spend less than $750.
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post #16 of 32 Old 11-18-2012, 03:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

The PB12 would have more deep bass output than the Legend, but the Legend would likely have more mid and upper bass output. Between those two I would swing for the PB12, but for reliability reasons, not performance reasons. As for what SVS says, they mentioned a comparison between subs that you aren't looking at, although what he said is true. A more relevant comparison for your choices can be found here, compare the PB12 to the Outlaw LFM-1 EX. Keep in mind that the Outlaw EX is a clone of the VTF3 mk2, which is two generations behind the current VTF3, and the mk4 is a better sub than the Outlaw. So if the Outlaw is more powerful than the PB12, and the VTF3 mk4 performs better than the Outlaw, how does the PB12 stack up against the VTF3? BTW, the Outlaw is a good sub in itself, and might be available for a very good price on Black Friday, possibly 550 to 600 shipped, that might warrant your attention if you want a powerful sub and want to spend less than $750.

i see, why isn't the HSU VTF3 on that list?
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post #17 of 32 Old 11-18-2012, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

BTW, the Outlaw is a good sub in itself, and might be available for a very good price on Black Friday, possibly 550 to 600 shipped, that might warrant your attention if you want a powerful sub and want to spend less than $750.

$600 max discount, I doubt they'll go back to the old discount after publicly stating they couldn't afford it. Regardless, as an LFM-1 EX owner I'll back this up. It owns the $600 price range.

Wouldn't hurt to wait a couple days to see if it's on sale, if it floats your boat.
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post #18 of 32 Old 11-18-2012, 03:54 PM - Thread Starter
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post #19 of 32 Old 11-18-2012, 04:05 PM
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The SVS has 5 year warranty while the HSU has a 7 year woofer/2 year electronics warranty. Electronics will fail more often than the woofer, so the SVS trumps the HSU in that regard.
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post #20 of 32 Old 11-18-2012, 04:28 PM
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i see, why isn't the HSU VTF3 on that list?

Josh Ricci hasn't tested one yet, those are just subs Ricci has measured.
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post #21 of 32 Old 11-18-2012, 04:30 PM - Thread Starter
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post #22 of 32 Old 11-18-2012, 04:33 PM
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I thought we've been clear.

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post #23 of 32 Old 11-19-2012, 04:27 PM - Thread Starter
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post #24 of 32 Old 11-19-2012, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Keep in mind that the Outlaw EX is a clone of the VTF3 mk2, which is two generations behind the current VTF3, and the mk4 is a better sub than the Outlaw.

Unfortunately, there's not any real evidence for this assertion, as we've discussed previously in similar threads.

I mean, we've got measurements for how the VTF 3.3 performs from Ilkka (worse than Josh's numbers for the LFM-1 EX) and we have VTF-15H numbers from Paul. Even with the 3dB "correction" for the VTF-15H, there's not exactly a big performance delta between the VTF15 and the LFM1-EX; how much more powerful do you suppose the VTF 3.4 can be without making the VTF-15H a pointless exercise?
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post #25 of 32 Old 11-19-2012, 06:20 PM
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Unfortunately, there's not any real evidence for this assertion, as we've discussed previously in similar threads.
I mean, we've got measurements for how the VTF 3.3 performs from Ilkka (worse than Josh's numbers for the LFM-1 EX) and we have VTF-15H numbers from Paul. Even with the 3dB "correction" for the VTF-15H, there's not exactly a big performance delta between the VTF15 and the LFM1-EX; how much more powerful do you suppose the VTF 3.4 can be without making the VTF-15H a pointless exercise?

Again, I don't think its a good idea to mix data sets. Ilkka did his measurements awhile before the CEA standards were thought of, and he is using different equipment, as is Paul Apollonio. Besides, I can see and hear from my own very informal comparison using my RS clone SPL meter that the VTF3 mk3 is on par with the LFM-1 EX, so I can say with confidence the VTF3 is at least as good as the LFM from 30 hz on up, and better down low as it is less prone to chuffing. The specs support my claim as the LFM EX is basically a VTF3 mk2 clone. I believe Hsu has said in the past that the VTF15h has twice the output of the VTF3, and I take this to mean at least 3 db extra headroom.
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post #26 of 32 Old 11-19-2012, 06:44 PM
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Again, I don't think its a good idea to mix data sets. Ilkka did his measurements awhile before the CEA standards were thought of, and he is using different equipment, as is Paul Apollonio.

It's certainly not ideal to mix data, but it beats "very informal comparisons" in my book. After all, Paul's numbers for the FV15HP were rather close to Josh's as you've noted, so in spite of different equipment, the results aren't THAT far off. If his numbers for the VTF15H are comparable in accuracy, that puts a pretty hard cap on how much better the VTF3.4 can be over the LFM1EX while still retaining ~3dB of extra output.
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The specs support my claim as the LFM EX is basically a VTF3 mk2 clone.

Clearly there are some similarities: 12" driver, dual 3" ports, and a 350 watt amplifier. However, there are some differences: the LFM-1EX boasts larger dimensions for example. Further, I'd also suggest it's quite possible, if not probable that the Outlaws have made some improvements in the intervening years to the original decade old design.
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post #27 of 32 Old 11-19-2012, 07:25 PM
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Just to confuse you some more, how about the Power Sound Audio XV15? At $800 shipped, it's not much more than the SVS and HSU.
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post #28 of 32 Old 11-19-2012, 07:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Just to confuse you some more, how about the Power Sound Audio XV15? At $800 shipped, it's not much more than the SVS and HSU.

thanks for the recommendation but no..

You know, from my point of view, the SVS is much more attractive, i mean i like how it looks from the outside, i hate how the hsu vtf3 looks, its plain ugly.. (unless u buy it in oak, the plain black color is ugly), the HSU has all these tuning features etc that i really could care less for.. the only thing that worries me is that people are saying the HSU is a better overall subwoofer confused.gif i mean, is that really the case? i mean how big of a difference could there be between the 2?

also, HSU charges 100 for shipping, SVS doesn't charge shipping.. so they essentially both cost $750..
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post #29 of 32 Old 11-19-2012, 07:53 PM
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the only thing that worries me is that people are saying the HSU is a better overall subwoofer confused.gif i mean, is that really the case? i mean how big of a difference could there be between the 2?

Ultimately, nobody really knows 100% as Josh hasn't run a VTF 3.4 through the ringer (and even if/when he does, it's unlikely to be so superior in every aspect of performance as to make Ed Mullen weep in despair). Guys like shadyJ and I can hem and haw into eternity about it (and we probably will biggrin.gif), but I wouldn't let it keep you up at nights one way or the other. If you think the VTF 3 is ugly, that'd be enough for me to decide against it in a market chock full of good options.
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post #30 of 32 Old 11-19-2012, 08:03 PM
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I too was considering the VTF3-Mk4 and felt that it was not the most attractive sub. The Hsu label is on the front but I guess you're really expected to use it sideways so you see nothing but the driver on the side. Not attractive at all. I like to look at my home theater equipment and be pleased with what I see. I skipped it and went a level higher and got a front firing sub which is what I really wanted.

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