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post #1 of 22 Old 11-22-2012, 06:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Started out researching a subwoofer with a 300 budget, now I'm up to 600! Info here is awesome. I have 1800cf that opens into an identical 1800cf, my HT is in a corner seperating these two rooms (5ft long wall). I was all set on the Hsu VTF-2 MK4, I like the listening options and Q, 519 plus 63 shipping. Outlaw comes out with Black Friday deal and the Plus is 499 shipped and EX 599 shipped. I'm new to real subwoofers, will I really notice the difference of the EX? How handy is the Q control of the Hsu? Could I save a hundred and think the Plus is awesome? My listening future is in your hands.
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post #2 of 22 Old 11-22-2012, 07:10 AM
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I'm in a similar situation...I was all set to buy the Hsu VTF-3, and now this Black Friday deal on the LFM-1 EX has really gotten me thinking, since it's $150 less.
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post #3 of 22 Old 11-22-2012, 08:30 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm stuck at 600 otherwise I'd be heading for the VTF3 also. I'm really wanting to know if I could notice a real difference. One guy called Outlaw asking about the EX and the employee talked him down to the Plus. Don't know what his room dimensions were though. I'm coming from a Onkyo box sub so I'll be good no matter what. Just wanted some "expert" advice and get the best product I can for the money. I keep coming back to the Q control and how nice that sounds to be able to tinker like that...
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post #4 of 22 Old 11-22-2012, 08:33 AM
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i would get the SVS Pb12 instead of these 2 options, a better subwoofer, more expensive but oh so worth it..
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post #5 of 22 Old 11-22-2012, 08:37 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MexicoDan View Post

Started out researching a subwoofer with a 300 budget, now I'm up to 600! Info here is awesome. I have 1800cf that opens into an identical 1800cf, my HT is in a corner seperating these two rooms (5ft long wall). I was all set on the Hsu VTF-2 MK4, I like the listening options and Q, 519 plus 63 shipping. Outlaw comes out with Black Friday deal and the Plus is 499 shipped and EX 599 shipped. I'm new to real subwoofers, will I really notice the difference of the EX? How handy is the Q control of the Hsu? Could I save a hundred and think the Plus is awesome? My listening future is in your hands.

Right now, in my opinion, at your budget limits, the screaming good deal is the current deal at Newegg. A pair of Klipsch, RW-12d's for $600.00

(Shipping is included)

Two subs are better than one because one gets a 5-6dB co-location boost of the two subs and the second sub helps fill in room created nulls by having subs at different locations within the same room; smoother, less boomy/bloated bass.

As lamonsasa stated, the SVS, PB12-NSD is quite the minimum standard to shoot for but a pair of Klipsch, RW-12d subs run a close second at your budget on my consumer related list of recommendations.

In my opinion, the main differences between the PB-12's and the RW-12d's is, the PB-12 digs deeper and does so with more authority. The down side, you're only getting one and this comes with it's own set of problems; creation of room caused sonic nulls and a lack of co-location boost; one vs two subs.

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post #6 of 22 Old 11-22-2012, 08:44 AM - Thread Starter
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One sub for now, second sub for later! I originally searched this site for the Klipch RW-12D, and moved up a category I guess.
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post #7 of 22 Old 11-22-2012, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Right now, in my opinion, at your budget limits, the screaming good deal is the current deal at Newegg. A pair of Klipsch, RW-12d's for $600.00
(Shipping is included.)
Two subs are better than one because one gets a 5-6dB colocation boost of the two subs and the second sub helps fill in room created nulls by having subs at different locations within the same room; smoother, less boomy/bloated bass.
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If you separate them to smooth FR in your room, you only get around half that extra output, 3db. Still 2 of those 2 of those Klipsch would be great for $600. The outlaw gets much lower at audible levels though, the Klipsch only makes 86db@20hz according to the S@V shootout. I don't know how they compare above that though.

Extra low output with the EX/Plus vs. the option to smooth over your in room response... It's great to have options I know that much.
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post #8 of 22 Old 11-22-2012, 09:47 AM
 
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Originally Posted by hermeslyre View Post

If you separate them to smooth FR in your room, you only get around half that extra output, 3db. Still 2 of those 2 of those Klipsch would be great for $600. The outlaw gets much lower at audible levels though, the Klipsch only makes 86db@20hz according to the S@V shootout. I don't know how they compare above that though.
Extra low output with the EX/Plus vs. the option to smooth over your in room response... It's great to have options I know that much.

Not trying to be argumentative regarding co-location, our subs are separated by nine and a half feet (~3m) and at listening position, have a measured co-location boost of 5dB.

Yes, without a doubt, the Outlaw is better at lower frequencies but one has room boost coupled with the co-location boost of two subs vs one sub; price vs performance with THX reference LFE channel being spec'd at >20Hz.. For stated reasons, FWIW, my thinking is stuck on the two subs is better than one sub philosophy. Either which way, a single Outlaw or a pair of RW-12d's, my opinion, the OP is going be happy.

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post #9 of 22 Old 11-22-2012, 10:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Is the Outlaw EX a no-brainer over the Plus and VTF2-MK4 since they are basically the same price right now? I'd save a 100 on the Plus...
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post #10 of 22 Old 11-22-2012, 11:51 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MexicoDan View Post

Is the Outlaw EX a no-brainer over the Plus and VTF2-MK4 since they are basically the same price right now? I'd save a 100 on the Plus...

I don't have enough information at my finger tips to be able to knowledgeably discuss the differences of the subs. On the surface, the EX is a better buy than the Plus. The EX vs the Hsu VTF2-MK4 would be a coin toss with both being tuneable. The edge going to the Outlaw because it has a bit more powerful Amp. Personally, at this price, neither the Outlaw or Hsu sub would turn my head away from a pair of Klipsch, RW-12d subs that Newegg has to offer because of the overall benefit two subs have over a single sub setup.

At this price point, if you're wanting more, you'd have to more than double your budget if wanting to tell a difference between a pair of Klipsch, RW-12d, a single Outlaw EX or a single Hsu VTF2-MK4. In my opinion, the room gain and the smoothing of nulls one gets buying a pair of subs makes the RW-12d's the better deal. If it helps you decide, the Amp on the RW-12d puts out RMS, 350w vs the same output for the Outlaw, EX. That means you will have at your Home Theater advantage, RMS, 700w vs RMS, 350w.or twice as much power for the same price. Does that help?

............................biggrin.gif
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post #11 of 22 Old 11-22-2012, 12:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm just learning that people actually put two subs together! I see what you are saying. With that logic, I think I'd rather get the EX now, and another this spring or summer when they go on sale again. If it weren't Xmas time, I'd get two EX's or Hsu's right now. From what I've learned, the EX or Hsu will get much lower frequencies and I'll hear better base at mid level volumes (regular tv watching)? Two EX's would be better than two RW-12D. The Klipsch goes down to 25Hz while the EX can hit 16Hz, in optimal settings. I might have something wrong here vocabulary wise, I just started this process two days ago. I appreciate the help though!
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post #12 of 22 Old 11-22-2012, 12:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MexicoDan View Post

I'm just learning that people actually put two subs together! I see what you are saying. With that logic, I think I'd rather get the EX now, and another this spring or summer when they go on sale again. If it weren't Xmas time, I'd get two EX's or Hsu's right now. From what I've learned, the EX or Hsu will get much lower frequencies and I'll hear better base at mid level volumes (regular tv watching)? Two EX's would be better than two RW-12D. The Klipsch goes down to 25Hz while the EX can hit 16Hz, in optimal settings. I might have something wrong here vocabulary wise, I just started this process two days ago. I appreciate the help though!

Agreeing with your above conclusion. My comments were married to your original budget of $600 dollars. You're being smart going with one EX now and a second one later when say the income tax return comes in.

The subs don't actually need to be combined or stacked if you will. As long as they're within one wave length proximity to each other, you're good with the sub co-location gain and subs in different locations better fill in the room voids intersecting/standing/reflective sound waves create. FWIW, an 80Hz wavelength is ~13.71 feet in length, which is where most crossovers are set at and a 120Hz wavelength is ~9.14 feet in length which is what THX reference LFE channel is spec'd to. So if your subs are placed within 9-13 feet of each other, you should be golden.

Wavelength calculator

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post #13 of 22 Old 11-22-2012, 12:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks. I should have said earlier that I will have the opportunity to double my purchase later on. I keep going back to the Hsu site and I love the idea of the Q and being able to tweak the sound more than just closing or opening a port. I read the EX ports are three inches and the VTF2.4 are 4" and that makes a difference. Oh what do I know, I probably won't be able to hear the difference anyway. I thought I read the Plus is comparable to the VTF2.4 and the EX is comparable to the VTF3.4, which is OUT of my price range. This makes the EX a better buy...I've read so much lately that I might be confusing myself.
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post #14 of 22 Old 11-22-2012, 12:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Couldn't wait anymore. Merry X-mas to me. EX ordered. Thanks!
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post #15 of 22 Old 11-22-2012, 01:00 PM
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Outlaw subs were designed by Dr. Hsu of HSU research. He also consulted with the speaker and sub design for BIC America.
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post #16 of 22 Old 11-22-2012, 02:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MexicoDan View Post

Couldn't wait anymore. Merry X-mas to me. EX ordered. Thanks!

biggrin.gif

Now we wait for you to post your impressions after being dialed in.
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post #17 of 22 Old 11-22-2012, 04:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Haha, coming from an Onkyo HTIB sub, I'm sure I'll be impressed!
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post #18 of 22 Old 11-22-2012, 05:45 PM
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Haha, coming from an Onkyo HTIB sub, I'm sure I'll be impressed!

As an EX owner, I can promise you it will be like going from a moped to a 700cc motorcyle. biggrin.gif
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post #19 of 22 Old 11-24-2012, 01:57 PM
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Good job Mexico Dan - I'm sure you'll like it and i hope you share your impressions. The SVS PB12- NSD was the sub I went with - no brainer here as your sub would cost me as much to ship here (Canada) as the SVS was (Canadian Distributor).

"it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it"
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post #20 of 22 Old 11-29-2012, 06:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks to everyone who posted on this thread. EX is up and running. Wow. I always put on the battle scene of Return of the King with the Olyphants stomping their way in. I felt my eyes twitch from the air pressurizing. Now I have to figure it out. I have it in Max Extension (one port closed). Sub's at volume 5, right in the middle. Don't know what the phase thing is yet. Pioneer 1019 receiver, crossover at 80hz, sub on passive. My main speakers have a frequency response of 41Hz-23kHz. If I want it louder, do I use the setting in the MCAAP and keep the actual sub volume lower? Not really sure what I'm doing. I make adjustments, and search this forum for ideas on what the heck I'm doing. But I can't stop grinning, that's for sure!
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post #21 of 22 Old 11-29-2012, 08:22 PM
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What did MCAAP set your subwoofer channel level to? Typically, you want the room correction software to end up with a setting close to 0db. So if the sub channel level ended up very low (negative number), try turning the gain (Vbolume) down on the sub and then run again. This tends to better optimize the sensitivity of the sub channel level for the sub amplifier. Then you can bump up the sub channel level on the receiver a couple of db if you want more bass. Meanwhile, if your sub is in the front soundstage, leave the phase at 0.

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post #22 of 22 Old 11-29-2012, 09:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Uh, well, that would be handy if I could find the microphone...playing by ear until I can locate it or buy a new one. Sub gain on 4, playing with the manual speaker settings now, bumped up the sub volume to 2.0db. Max extension seems to tickle my skin a little more. Klipsch Icon 35's up front were set to large, I put them on small after reading a bunch of posts. Sub in a corner behind the whole setup, no chance of moving it for now. I'll keep the phase at 0.
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