Bass localization: The Old Debate - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 41 Old 11-28-2012, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

(Just saying.)
And then one reads further in the article and finds that mammals can breath/utilize (inhale) "super-oxygenated" water. (Yup!)
"Into the abyss: The diving suit that turns men into fish"
"Arnold Lande, a retired American heart and lung surgeon, has patented a scuba suit that would allow a human to breathe “liquid air”, a special solution that has been highly enriched with oxygen molecules.
The idea immediately conjures up the terrifying spectre of drowning but our lungs are more than capable of taking oxygen from a solution."
...............................................biggrin.gif
With all due respect, the key to moving the ball forward, is not listening to people tell you that you can't move the ball forward.
...............................................
(Smart people live with the understanding of how stupid they are as the more they know, the less they know. Like mortality, it's a terrible thing to know and understand.)
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"Lande envisages a scuba suit that would allow divers to inhale highly-oxygenated perfluorocarbons (PFCs) – a type of liquid that can dissolve enormous quantities of gas."

Perflourocarbons have been around a long time. In my "day job" as a perfusionist, we looked into PFC's years ago as a blood substitute. Doesn't work. Lots of cows were killed looking into it. It will NEVER work for the application of gas exchange in the lungs. when under water. You would need to fill the lungs completely with liquid perflurocarbon emulsion, all the way down to the alveolar level. Do you want to be the guinea pig for that? Even if it did work for scuba diving, when you came back to the surface, you would need to get the emulsion out of your lungs to be able to breath again. Do you want someone to suction your alveoli out just so you can go scuba diving? That's just stupid.

Just because someone gets a patent for something doesn't make it a viable enterprise.

Craig

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post #32 of 41 Old 11-28-2012, 06:40 AM
 
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Perflourocarbons have been around a long time. In my "day job" as a perfusionist, we looked into PFC's years ago as a blood substitute. Doesn't work. Lots of cows were killed looking into it. It will NEVER work for the application of gas exchange in the lungs. when under water. You would need to fill the lungs completely with liquid perflurocarbon emulsion. Do you want to be the guinea pig for that? Even if it did work for scuba diving, when you came back to the surface, you would need to get the emulsion out of your lungs to be able to breath again. Do you want someone to suction your lungs out just so you can go scuba diving? That's just stupid.
Just because someone gets a patent for something doesn't make it a viable enterprise.
Craig

I see you thoughtfully missed my obvious point completely. The missed point, just because people of authority say it can't be done, doesn't mean, it can't be done. To move knowledge forward, one must learn to not listen to people telling them it can't be done.

All things that are known, have been learned. All things that are not known, have yet to be learned. The point, encourage the OP with your expertise, don't discourage him with your expertise.

"Jonathan Livingston Seagull"

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post #33 of 41 Old 11-28-2012, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

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Originally Posted by arande2 View Post

I can't easily vary my subwoofer setup in my own room (plus there would be a large time gap between A/B'ing).

How quick does the switch need to be? I'd think with most newer receivers, changing the XO frequency would take a couple seconds max.


Once I am on the AVR's crossover screen, the change from one crossover frequency to the next one is near instantaneous. I change frequencies while listening to music to evaluate the sound quality at various crossover frequencies. I do the same thing with single frequency test tones to evaluate what various bass frequencies can be located with various crossover settings.

I can not locate 50 Hz, but by 80 Hz you can easily locate the source of the 80 Hz assuming you have a stereo bass setup (AKA two speakers or subwoofers setup for stereo). A test to locate bass with the use of a single subwoofer as a source of bass is a different test.
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post #34 of 41 Old 11-28-2012, 10:26 AM
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post #35 of 41 Old 11-28-2012, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I see you thoughtfully missed my obvious point completely. The missed point, just because people of authority say it can't be done, doesn't mean, it can't be done. To move knowledge forward, one must learn to not listen to people telling them it can't be done.
All things that are known, have been learned. All things that are not known, have yet to be learned. The point, encourage the OP with your expertise, don't discourage him with your expertise.
"Jonathan Livingston Seagull"
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Conversely, some things have been tested extensively enough to know what will work and what won't. If you personally want to reject known science, go for it, but I'm not jumping off any buildings in the hope that we're wrong about gravity being a constant.

Bass localization is based validated science - no need to rebuild that wheel.
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post #36 of 41 Old 11-29-2012, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Probably. An RTA might reveal what's going on.

CSD/waterfall would likely provide a clearly indication of a resonance...
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post #37 of 41 Old 11-29-2012, 08:54 AM
 
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Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Conversely, some things have been tested extensively enough to know what will work and what won't. If you personally want to reject known science, go for it, but I'm not jumping off any buildings in the hope that we're wrong about gravity being a constant.
Bass localization is based validated science - no need to rebuild that wheel.

It has nothing to do with rejecting proven science. It's about encouraging the learning process by taking a few steps back, encourage the challenging of "proven" science (learning) and then moving forward again and if that means jumping off a few building in the process, then yes, by all means, do.

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post #38 of 41 Old 11-29-2012, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

It has nothing to do with rejecting proven science.
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In this case it's more an issue of ignorance of the proven science. Those most likely to argue over the validity of proven science tend to be those who don't understand it. Arguing about that which you do not understand is time wasted; learning about that which you do not understand is time well spent.

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post #39 of 41 Old 11-29-2012, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

In this case it's more an issue of ignorance of the proven science. Those most likely to argue over the validity of proven science tend to be those who don't understand it. Arguing about that which you do not understand is time wasted; learning about that which you do not understand is time well spent.

I'm not sure saying that the OP is ignorant of the proven science is entirely fair. Putting aside from some of the language he decided to use, ie "denouncing studies", he's made observations contrary to what he believes he should be experiencing based on his understanding of the science. While IMO there have been several good hypothesis put forward on this thread as to why he may be experiencing localization, I'm not sure why people are up in arms over him wanting to test it out a bit. He's a college student interested in audio; if he wants to play around testing different XO points and subs, that's hardly the worst thing he could do with his time.
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post #40 of 41 Old 11-29-2012, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

I'm not sure saying that the OP is ignorant of the proven science is entirely fair. Putting aside from some of the language he decided to use, ie "denouncing studies", he's made observations contrary to what he believes he should be experiencing based on his understanding of the science. .
Perhaps, but it's not the science that's lacking, it's his knowledge of it. That's an easily cured condition, far easier than repeating fifty odd years of research that's already been done.

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post #41 of 41 Old 11-29-2012, 01:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Perhaps, but it's not the science that's lacking, it's his knowledge of it. That's an easily cured condition, far easier than repeating fifty odd years of research that's already been done.

Stating the obvious, learning is a curve. It's easy because you know this stuff. I learned late, the folks I speak to don't have my background so I have to drop back about thirty years and start forward as if an entry level discussion. I speak as if the person is clueless and build from there. It's about the inexperienced individual, not the experienced person. Without someone to listen, the person doing the sharing is doing so to entertain themselves. It's not about ego, it's about showing the individual the path and then getting out of their way. Some people understand these points, others don't. I'm old, not my worry.

My sharing formula, I find out what the individual doesn't know, then I start moving forward from their state of awareness, not from mine. Philosophically, it's incumbent on the seeing to teach the blind, not the other way around.

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